Did Mary really know that Jesus was "sinless"?

[JLHPROF]

Elder Clayton just spoke and one thing he said was that Mary was very aware of who her Son really was, including a sinless life.

It made me think of the fun of raising my own little boy (who turns 4 today) .  I can't help wonder if the joys of raising a pre-school age child, even the future Savior, were lost from her experience.  Potty training, bedtime, picky eating, etc.

Scripture says Christ grew in wisdom and stature so he didn't start out fully perfected in all things.  I can't help but wonder if Jesus was ever spanked or put on time out as he grew up.  It wouldn't change his sinless nature as little children are considered innocent, but do you think Mary always saw him as perfect?

[probablyHagoth7]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Elder Clayton just spoke and one thing he said was that Mary was very aware of who her Son really was, including a sinless life.

...I can't help but wonder if Jesus was ever spanked or put on time out as he grew up.  It wouldn't change his sinless nature as little children are considered innocent, but do you think Mary always saw him as perfect?

 

 

 

(For those who might initially take offense, consider that God must have a healthy sense of humor...after all, he created us.)  

Edited April 2, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[thesometimesaint]

I think we sometimes conflate sinless with some unattainable fictionalized version of absolute perfection.  All it really does is make our exaltation more difficult to imagine.

Edited April 2, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[cinepro]

Here's the only scripture about Jesus growing up:

Quote

40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Luke 2

Elder Clayton was probably inferring that since an angel had told Mary who Jesus was, she knew he would be sinless. But it would be good for speakers to explicitly explain where they are getting these ideas.

[Tacenda]

28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Elder Clayton just spoke and one thing he said was that Mary was very aware of who her Son really was, including a sinless life.

It made me think of the fun of raising my own little boy (who turns 4 today) .  I can't help wonder if the joys of raising a pre-school age child, even the future Savior, were lost from her experience.  Potty training, bedtime, picky eating, etc.

Scripture says Christ grew in wisdom and stature so he didn't start out fully perfected in all things.  I can't help but wonder if Jesus was ever spanked or put on time out as he grew up.  It wouldn't change his sinless nature as little children are considered innocent, but do you think Mary always saw him as perfect?

I don't know why JL, but I pictured you to be a lot older than a father with a 4 year old. Maybe it's all your wisdom.

And to answer your question, the only way she may have seen Him sinless, IMO, is because she knew He was God incarnate. 

[Mars]

i gathered from context that she knew who her baby was from the get go and all that that entailed.

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Mars said:

i gathered from context that she knew who her baby was from the get go and all that that entailed.

That's a little different than considering him sinless, or perfect.

Remember that most of Jewish society were expecting a different type of Christ.  Wouldn't Mary have thought her Messiah son would take a different route in life?

Edited April 2, 2017 by JLHPROF

[longview]

This makes me think of John the Baptist.  He was ordained to the Priesthood while still an infant.  His father was assassinated.  He lived his entire life dedicated to God and probably preached constantly and doing nothing but good works.

I think both Jesus and the Baptist were richly endowed with the Spirit and stayed loyal to God in all things.  They were both subjected to the "Veil of Forgetfulness" but kept after the spirit and deep study of the scriptures.  I do not doubt that Heavenly Father trained them in their youth by giving them all kinds of experiences and challenges and even some rigors and afflictions.

[The Nehor]

Mary had Jesus and wondered what all the fuss about child raising was. Then James came along.......

I expect Jesus made mistakes but never sinned. I doubt he was perfect at carpentry when he started or that he made the house spotless when he helped to clean.

[CMZ]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

Here's the only scripture about Jesus growing up:

Elder Clayton was probably inferring that since an angel had told Mary who Jesus was, she knew he would be sinless. But it would be good for speakers to explicitly explain where they are getting these ideas.

Yeah, about what I figured, that it came along as part and parcel of all her spiritual instruction on the matter.

[Mars]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

That's a little different than considering him sinless, or perfect.

Remember that most of Jewish society were expecting a different type of Christ.  Wouldn't Mary have thought her Messiah son would take a different route in life?

it's possible.

although, the idea that we read everything communicated to recipients of heavenly messengers isn't supported through historical and scriptural example.  i am laboring under the impression, right or wrong, that Mary knew her Son's full calling and mission.  and that she obtained this kind of knowledge through repeated visits, akin to what Joseph Smith had with Moroni when he was being prepared to take on his role as prophet, seer, and revelator.

Him going missing at age 12 and all the details there is, in my mind, a reaction any mother, even Mary and her knowledge of Jesus, would have.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Elder Clayton just spoke and one thing he said was that Mary was very aware of who her Son really was, including a sinless life.

It made me think of the fun of raising my own little boy (who turns 4 today) .  I can't help wonder if the joys of raising a pre-school age child, even the future Savior, were lost from her experience.  Potty training, bedtime, picky eating, etc.

Scripture says Christ grew in wisdom and stature so he didn't start out fully perfected in all things.  I can't help but wonder if Jesus was ever spanked or put on time out as he grew up.  It wouldn't change his sinless nature as little children are considered innocent, but do you think Mary always saw him as perfect?

There is a very nice film which imagines the answer to your very question: 

 

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Elder Clayton just spoke and one thing he said was that Mary was very aware of who her Son really was, including a sinless life.

It made me think of the fun of raising my own little boy (who turns 4 today) .  I can't help wonder if the joys of raising a pre-school age child, even the future Savior, were lost from her experience.  Potty training, bedtime, picky eating, etc.

Scripture says Christ grew in wisdom and stature so he didn't start out fully perfected in all things.  I can't help but wonder if Jesus was ever spanked or put on time out as he grew up.  It wouldn't change his sinless nature as little children are considered innocent, but do you think Mary always saw him as perfect?

The scriptures don't say that Christ never made a mistake.  

[rongo]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

Here's the only scripture about Jesus growing up:

I think we can infer more than this, though. Mary, when the shepherds worshipped her baby, "kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart." When Simeon prophesied to Mary and Joseph at the temple, saying among other things to Mary, "Yea, a sword shall pierce through thine own soul, also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed," they were astonished and didn't know what to think. "Joseph and [Mary] marvelled at those things that were spoken of [Jesus]." When Jesus stayed in the temple to speak with the elders, and Joseph and Mary in panic backtracked from the caravan to find him, they got after him like parents would: "And his mother said unto him: son, why hast though thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee suffering." After he explained that he had to be about his father's business, [Mary and Joseph] "understood not the saying which he spake unto them." After that, they went home, and Jesus "was subject unto them; but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart." 

All of these precede "the only scripture about Jesus growing up."

There are other indications that Mary and Jesus' siblings didn't fully grasp him or his mission (Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35). I think the full understanding came later, when the Holy Ghost in his fullness was available and he could bring "all things to their remembrance."

 

[Jeanne]

I don't think that Mary would have noticed any perfection until her son realized he was the son of God.  I would like to think as a little boy..he was just a regular little boy..for which Mary was to teach life's basic skills..and with patience train in the way all mothers do.  A realization of any perfection would be actualized when the Savior knew his Father...and his purpose.  There would have been a noticable change.

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I don't think that Mary would have noticed any perfection until her son realized he was the son of God.  I would like to think as a little boy..he was just a regular little boy..for which Mary was to teach life's basic skills..and with patience train in the way all mothers do.  A realization of any perfection would be actualized when the Savior knew his Father...and his purpose.  There would have been a noticable change.

Perfect analysis Jeanne!

[3DOP]

I don't think it can be assumed that the child Jesus or His mother were ever ignorant of His identity. This baby was God. Three months before he was born, a less extraordinary baby, but still the greatest among men, John the Baptist, recognized the Son of God through the voice of His mother, Elizabeth, while still in the womb of Elizabeth! To Elizabeth it had also been revealed that her cousin Mary was "the mother of my Lord". How could it be that Elizabeth and the unborn John knew truths that were unknown to Christ and His own mother?  It follows that the Son of God recognized and His mother knew His identity from Mary's womb.

"And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.  And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?  For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.  And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord." (Luke 1:41-45)

Upon this extraordinary proclamation from her cousin, does Mary try to deny it? No. How would any of you ladies reply upon being approached by someone who says that the baby you are carrying, is their "Lord"? You would be incredulous and perhaps embarrassed about such a weird greeting. But not if you had the experience that Mary had when the Angel Gabriel visited her, and you accepted the invitation to conceive by the Holy Ghost with a message that "the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God"? Experience after experience before her Babe was born and after continued to attest to the truth of the message of the Angel. Obviously, Mary herself already believed what Elizabeth confirmed to her because instead of denying that her Baby was Elizabeth's Lord, Mary exclaims upon the great mysteries which she was witnessing in herself:

"And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name." (Luke 1:45-47)Let us leave aside the Catholic belief that Mary herself was conceived immaculately and was prepared by the Father to be the Mother of God. Even if she became the mother of God by some lottery, could she forget that she was a virgin, what the Angel said, what Elizabeth said, what Joseph is going to say, what the Magi are going to say, what the Shepherds said, what Simeon is going to say? 

Clearly we Catholics magnify Jesus' mother to a degree that makes LDS and Protestants uncomfortable. For now I would prefer to avoid getting into that. I have refrained from the expression "Blessed Mother" for the sake of avoiding that controversy even though Mary says that all generations will call her "blessed". I am suggesting for your consideration that Luke 1 and 2 does not permit that Mary could have been ignorant of the identity of her Virgin born Child. It isn't reasonable according to the Gospel account. God she said, "hath done great things to me". It is clear that this is not hyperbole. I don't think Elizabeth could forget or Joseph or any of the other players on the scene either, much less Mary.

Why did the Holy Family flee to Egypt? Because even the wicked Herod was afraid that the prophecies were fulfilled in the child that Mary bore in Bethlehem! The uniquely extraordinary scenes that are described in the Gospels about Mary and her Child would have seared themselves in to the memory of any normal person. Mary was at least normal, right? It would take someone who was abnormal, who being far from immaculate, had grave problems, to go through all of the experiences of the Virgin Mary, with testimony coming from far and near, from good and bad, confirming who the Angel said was going to be born, and then somehow forgetting or not believing. She would have had to have forgotten or not believed that she was a virgin!

Thanks for your consideration.

3DOP 

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by 3DOP

[Bobbieaware]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Elder Clayton just spoke and one thing he said was that Mary was very aware of who her Son really was, including a sinless life.

It made me think of the fun of raising my own little boy (who turns 4 today) .  I can't help wonder if the joys of raising a pre-school age child, even the future Savior, were lost from her experience.  Potty training, bedtime, picky eating, etc.

Scripture says Christ grew in wisdom and stature so he didn't start out fully perfected in all things.  I can't help but wonder if Jesus was ever spanked or put on time out as he grew up.  It wouldn't change his sinless nature as little children are considered innocent, but do you think Mary always saw him as perfect?

Something to consider: 

It's well-established Church doctrine that little children, in spite of being born into the fallen state, are not capable of committing willful sin and thus be held morally culpable for violating the laws of God until they arrive at the age of accountability. This means when the Lord was a child he could have demonstrated many of the imperfect behaviors common to all young earthly children (think temper tantrums, selfishness, unkindness to peers, disobedience to parents, etc) and not have those imperfect manifestations of the fallen nature be counted, in the legal sense, as damning sin. This means that, like all other little children, the Lord could have had the same eight year grace period during whichever he, as mother so Eve wisely said, (paraphrasing) "tasted the bitter that through his own experience he might learn how to prize the good." In consideration of who and what he was, it's likely the young Christ learned how to overcome his human imperfections at a highly accelerated pace through what he experienced during those early years. It may very well be that the things he experienced during those formative years of sinless imperfection had a powerful impact on him that set him on a lofty trajectory that enabled him to remain the sinless Savior of mankind after passing into the years that lie beyond the age of accountability.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I don't think that Mary would have noticed any perfection until her son realized he was the son of God.  I would like to think as a little boy..he was just a regular little boy..for which Mary was to teach life's basic skills..and with patience train in the way all mothers do.  A realization of any perfection would be actualized when the Savior knew his Father...and his purpose.  There would have been a noticable change.

This is closer to the heart of my question.  Not about Christ's perfection, but about Mary's interaction.  Did he get spanked?  Not share a toy?  Get colic?  Did Mary get annoyed and chew him out (as in the Fathers business story).  

Did Mary view Christ as a child to be disciplined into his future perfection even knowing who he was?

[rpn]

Oh, as soon as Mary had her second child (or maybe before if she had relatives with young children) it was likely to have been very obvious, if it hadn't been before, that Jesus was not like other children.   Imagine having a child who never lied after they were old enough to understand what a lie is.

Edited April 3, 2017 by rpn

[PeterPear]

7 hours ago, cinepro said:

Here's the only scripture about Jesus growing up:

Elder Clayton was probably inferring that since an angel had told Mary who Jesus was, she knew he would be sinless. But it would be good for speakers to explicitly explain where they are getting these ideas.

How about the Old Testament, ye who who need the speakers to tell you all things. What other scripture did Mary have?

Exodus 12:5 "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:"

Doesn't the Law of Moses foreshadow the Savior's sacrifice? The Lamb of God without spot? Doesn't the Book of Mormon clarify this for you, and Mary would have known the same from the writings of Moses and all the Prophets? Do you think she would have known the scriptures?  An Angel told Mary, "that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" - and you all wonder how she knew He was sinless?

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by PeterPear

[probablyHagoth7]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

This is closer to the heart of my question.  Not about Christ's perfection, but about Mary's interaction.  Did he get spanked?  Not share a toy?  Get colic?  Did Mary get annoyed and chew him out (as in the Fathers business story).  

Did Mary view Christ as a child to be disciplined into his future perfection even knowing who he was?

 

Makes me think of the one brief glimpse we're offered: her interaction with him after he vanished as a young boy to interact with others in the temple.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

Oh, as soon as Mary had her second child (or maybe before if she had relatives with young children) it was likely to have been very obvious, if it hadn't been before, that Jesus was not like other children.   Imagine having a child who never lied after they were old enough to understand what a lie is.

It is not that hard for me.  I had one that likely only did it once before he hit puberty (who knows after that, if he lied he got away with it then) and that time after I looked at him strangely, he burst into tears in guilt.  Poor kid. Only child till he was eight with an obsessive compulsive mom.  I needed a hobby, way too much in each other's lives (they needed teacher's aides desperately at his school, I was bored, no money and no car for a parttime job, no internet yet, babysat kids after school, did volunteer work at his school almost daily).  He was very intelligent and it was fun teaching him high school math.

The whole not bothering to say anything was a bit more of a problem once he hit junior high and I had his sister to keep me busy and my disorder to keep me home otherwise.  I could have taken care of a dozen of kids if they were like him.  Started feeding himself by 8, perfectly happy with handmedowns, never said one nasty, unkind word in his life, never teased his sister.

I always said the only thing that kept him from being translated was his refusal to clean house even if  I tried to bribe him.  Worked hard for everyone else too.  Never could be the Messiah though because he could never bring himself to call someone a viper or do the whole overturning tables thing.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, PeterPear said:

How about the Old Testament, ye who who need the speakers to tell you all things. What other scripture did Mary have?

Exodus 12:5 "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:"

Doesn't the Law of Moses foreshadow the Savior's sacrifice? The Lamb of God without spot? Doesn't the Book of Mormon clarify this for you, and Mary would have known the same from the writings of Moses and all the Prophets? Do you think she would have known the scriptures?  An Angel told Mary, "that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" - and you all wonder how she knew He was sinless?

I was going to give you a rep point, but can't, so I'll just say;  Excellent points, Pete.

[rodheadlee]

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