Did Mary really know that Jesus was "sinless"?

[3DOP]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I was going to give you a rep point, but can't, so I'll just say;  Excellent points, Pete.

Me too Rob't. You nail the prime rep point problem. I was properly prepared, and would indeed prefer to give props with a point to the post of Peter Pear.

Edited April 3, 2017 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

 

Hey rod.

Funny you should post the video to that song. I have heard it before. Its a well done, pretty song. But when it was sung at our parish one time for our annual Epiphany Talent Show there was enough pushback (I was one of the pushbackers) to make sure it will never be sung again. The young people, God bless them, weren't thinking theologically. Its a nice song. But it doesn't work for us. For us Catholics, Mary knew.

 

 

 

[The Nehor]

38 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Hey rod.

Funny you should post the video to that song. I have heard it before. Its a well done, pretty song. But when it was sung at our parish one time for our annual Epiphany Talent Show there was enough pushback (I was one of the pushbackers) to make sure it will never be sung again. The young people, God bless them, weren't thinking theologically. Its a nice song. But it doesn't work for us. For us Catholics, Mary knew.

 

 

 

That song weirds me out a little? It has a creepy vibe to it where the song is asking questions and implying answers Mary never gave. I would be interested to hear Mary answer the questions but listening to someone ask is kind of silly and off-putting. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

. For us Catholics, Mary knew.

It does come across as rather patronizing to me, here they are telling Mary---who knew God---these things of God as if they have knowledge that she didnot/does not.  As if she is/was somehow clueless or not paying attention while they could tell her so much.  The words are confusing in the tense, so one doesn't know at what time in her life they are talking to her (as it happens or looking back)...it generally conveys that Jesus is doing these things in the recent past or present and she has been unaware of all of it...rhertorical questions rather than actual ones in a sense.  Not sure if I am explaining it clearly.

Pretty song, but kind of bugs me.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

That song weirds me out a little? It has a creepy vibe to it where the song is asking questions and implying answers Mary never gave. I would be interested to hear Mary answer the questions but listening to someone ask is kind of silly and off-putting. 

It does imply to me she is answering "no, I did not know" because of the way it builds.  I figured out how to say it, I think. The questions aren't really questions, they are instead used to tell her the story...they are informing her, assuming lack of knowledge...they make that clear by using a statement that he delivered her.  So they know all this while she is naive and clueless about her son and just sees him as her baby, regardless of what she witnessed from before he was born and at his birth with the shepherds and later wise men and Anna and Simeon at the temple at 12 days. (Though if they are talking right after the moment of his birth, Mary has the experience of the Angel and Elizabeth's witness only)

That phrasing is also usually used for gossip "did you know/hear about so and so doing...?"

It works very well with the music for dramatic effect if you can ignore the actual implications.  

Edited April 3, 2017 by Calm

[Gray]

Given that his family (and presumably Mary, from the context) thought Jesus was crazy and tried to get him to stop his ministry, I'd say probably not!

[stemelbow]

I doubt any person is able to know what sinless would be.  It seems to me most of my sins are stuck right in my own little head for no one to see but me and God, and with that, most of the time, I don't know if I'm sinning or not.  I just assume I am because how would I know? 

Edited April 3, 2017 by stemelbow

[HappyJackWagon]

20 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Elder Clayton just spoke and one thing he said was that Mary was very aware of who her Son really was, including a sinless life.

It made me think of the fun of raising my own little boy (who turns 4 today) .  I can't help wonder if the joys of raising a pre-school age child, even the future Savior, were lost from her experience.  Potty training, bedtime, picky eating, etc.

Scripture says Christ grew in wisdom and stature so he didn't start out fully perfected in all things.  I can't help but wonder if Jesus was ever spanked or put on time out as he grew up.  It wouldn't change his sinless nature as little children are considered innocent, but do you think Mary always saw him as perfect?

It's interesting to think of what it means that he was "sinless". Clearly, according to the culture of the day and Jewish law, he wasn't "sinless". I wonder if he was "sinless" according to our modern culture and Mormon law. It doesn't really matter because he was sinless in the eyes of God. I think it's worth consideration that we don't understand "sin" all that well and that the concept of Jesus's sinlessness doesn't mean he necessarily behaved in the exact ways we teach today.

[rodheadlee]

8 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hey rod.

Funny you should post the video to that song. I have heard it before. Its a well done, pretty song. But when it was sung at our parish one time for our annual Epiphany Talent Show there was enough pushback (I was one of the pushbackers) to make sure it will never be sung again. The young people, God bless them, weren't thinking theologically. Its a nice song. But it doesn't work for us. For us Catholics, Mary knew.

 

 

 

Well of course Mary knew. It's a great song for the uninitiated to realize who Christ was. The kids didn't write the song though these 2 guys wrote it:Lee Rufus Greenebill, Mark Alan Lowry. Many have sung it;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary,_Did_You_Know%3F

I thought it was a great way to rephrase the OP. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It's interesting to think of what it means that he was "sinless". Clearly, according to the culture of the day and Jewish law, he wasn't "sinless". I wonder if he was "sinless" according to our modern culture and Mormon law.

Not if Orson Hyde was correct about Christ being a polygamist.  Our modern culture wouldn't accept that.

Quote

It doesn't really matter because he was sinless in the eyes of God. I think it's worth consideration that we don't understand "sin" all that well and that the concept of Jesus's sinlessness doesn't mean he necessarily behaved in the exact ways we teach today.

• “…if we did not accuse one another God would not accuse us & if we had no accuser we should enter heaven. He [Joseph] would take us there as his backload. If we would not accuse him [Joseph] he would not accuse us & if we would throw a cloak of charity over his sins he would over ours. For charity covered a multitude of Sins & what many people called sin was not sin & he did many things to break down superstition & he would break it down. He spoke of the curse of Ham for laughing at Noah while in his wine but doing no harm.” (Source: Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 2, 1841–1845, p.137)

Sinless in the eyes of God is definitely very different than sinless in the eyes of man.

[Ahab]

Jesus never sinning doesn't mean Jesus never did anything Mary didn't approve of, or that Jesus always did what Mary wanted him to do.

To sin is to willfully rebel against God or to act contrary to how we know God wants us to act.

To not to what our mortal parents want us to do is not the same thing.

[HappyJackWagon]

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Jesus never sinning doesn't mean Jesus never did anything Mary didn't approve of, or that Jesus always did what Mary wanted him to do.

To sin is to willfully rebel against God or to act contrary to how we know God wants us to act.

To not to what our mortal parents want us to do is not the same thing.

Isn't "honor thy father an mother" a commandment?

JK- our understanding of sin is incomplete at best. Even in relation to what church leaders teach today or what church leaders taught in Jesus' day.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Isn't "honor thy father an mother" a commandment?

Honoring them isn't about doing whatever they want. I honor my mortal parents by doing my best to be a good person even while they don't approve of me being a "Mormon".

[MiserereNobis]

7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think it's worth consideration that we don't understand "sin" all that well and that the concept of Jesus's sinlessness doesn't mean he necessarily behaved in the exact ways we teach today.

This is one of the reasons why I'm not a fan of "what would Jesus do?"  Obviously, the intent behind the question is a good -- try to act like God wants us to act.  However, if I think hard about it, I'm not sure I know what Jesus would do.  Look how often he confused the religious people of His day, even his own followers, by doing things that were either considered sinful (Sabbath-breaking being a prime example) or unexpected.  I think "what would Jesus do?" really translates into "what do I think is right in this situation?" and while that is a good question to ask, of course, it's not the same as knowing what God would do.

/pet peeve rant and thread derail

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is one of the reasons why I'm not a fan of "what would Jesus do?"  Obviously, the intent behind the question is a good -- try to act like God wants us to act.  However, if I think hard about it, I'm not sure I know what Jesus would do.  Look how often he confused the religious people of His day, even his own followers, by doing things that were either considered sinful (Sabbath-breaking being a prime example) or unexpected.  I think "what would Jesus do?" really translates into "what do I think is right in this situation?" and while that is a good question to ask, of course, it's not the same as knowing what God would do.

/pet peeve rant and thread derail

I also find that advice almost puerile. It seems to work best for the simple-minded and the conceited who imagine they know the mind of Christ. Short of revelation (which I seek) I do not know exactly what He would do and I do not always get revelation. In those cases I just do the best I can.

8 hours ago, Gray said:

Given that his family (and presumably Mary, from the context) thought Jesus was crazy and tried to get him to stop his ministry, I'd say probably not!

I am not convinced that the context requires Mary to be one of those who thought him crazy. That she was around when the family came looking for Him is evident but that does not necessarily mean she thought he was nuts. Could have been his siblings or his uncles/aunts, or even Joseph (though by tradition he was believed dead by this time).

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is one of the reasons why I'm not a fan of "what would Jesus do?"  Obviously, the intent behind the question is a good -- try to act like God wants us to act.  However, if I think hard about it, I'm not sure I know what Jesus would do.  Look how often he confused the religious people of His day, even his own followers, by doing things that were either considered sinful (Sabbath-breaking being a prime example) or unexpected.  I think "what would Jesus do?" really translates into "what do I think is right in this situation?" and while that is a good question to ask, of course, it's not the same as knowing what God would do.

/pet peeve rant and thread derail

I like how the "what would Jesus do?" concept is phrased as a question.  

What would Jesus do?

Hmm. Can we maybe find out?

Would seeking, asking, knocking or something else like that help us to find out, maybe?

For those who believe in receiving revelation from God I think the question is worth thinking about for a while, and maybe even finding that out.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I like how the "what would Jesus do?" concept is phrased as a question.  

What would Jesus do?

Hmm. Can we maybe find out?

Would seeking, asking, knocking or something else like that help us to find out, maybe?

For those who believe in receiving revelation from God I think the question is worth thinking about for a while, and maybe even finding that out.

If that question is answered for you every time you ask it in your life either you are on a spiritual plane far beyond me where you can discern the mind of God with relative ease or you are a moral incompetent that has to be commanded in all things or you are deceiving yourself about how much you know.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If that question is answered for you every time you ask it in your life either you are on a spiritual plane far beyond me where you can discern the mind of God with relative ease or you are a moral incompetent that has to be commanded in all things or you are deceiving yourself about how much you know.

Option A seems just about right.

I ask and he answers. Usually almost immediately.

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Option A seems just about right.

I ask and he answers. Usually almost immediately.

Then congrats on that and let me know right before your ordinance of translation....or you are actually in Option C and, like so many others, interpret almost every stray thought as inspired in which case people like you annoy me. Or you are Option B and I kind of envy you. I am probably more of an Option B person than I am comfortable admitting.

Edited April 3, 2017 by The Nehor

[strappinglad]

I may have mentioned this before, but years ago I started reading a book which claimed to be ancient writings about the early years of Christ. It spoke about how He would use His power to afflict the local bullies etc. I found the whole thing off-putting and tossed the book in the trash.

Now , having done quite a bit of carpentry , I can visualize an occasion in which Jesus accidentally whacked His thumb with a mallet while assembling a shelf. I'm sure He just said OUCH.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I may have mentioned this before, but years ago I started reading a book which claimed to be ancient writings about the early years of Christ. It spoke about how He would use His power to afflict the local bullies etc. I found the whole thing off-putting and tossed the book in the trash.

Now , having done quite a bit of carpentry , I can visualize an occasion in which Jesus accidentally whacked His thumb with a mallet while assembling a shelf. I'm sure He just said OUCH.

Dam it means stop it and is totally appropriate to stop the throbbing!

[Gray]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

 

I am not convinced that the context requires Mary to be one of those who thought him crazy. That she was around when the family came looking for Him is evident but that does not necessarily mean she thought he was nuts. Could have been his siblings or his uncles/aunts, or even Joseph (though by tradition he was believed dead by this time).

This is the context that leads me to believe his mother also thought he was nuts (just a few sentences down from the previous citation):

Mark 3

31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

[The Nehor]

46 minutes ago, Gray said:

This is the context that leads me to believe his mother also thought he was nuts (just a few sentences down from the previous citation):

Mark 3

31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

Yeah, not convinced. It was possible she was just tagging along and not actually convinced he was crazy. Then again it was possible she did think he was acting crazy. Either way works for me.