Vocations in the LDS Church

[MiserereNobis]

Hello friends,

In another thread about Millenials, mapman made this comment:

Quote

I've found it interesting how some religions have different approaches to the religion built in, such as religions with monastic orders. Like with Catholicism you can chose to be a layperson, to be part of the clergy, or chose from a variety of monastic orders. I don't think we should model our religion off of any other, but I like the thought of when someone knows you are a Mormon, that doesn't mean that they think that they already know everything about your religious, social, and political beliefs and practices.

This got me thinking about what we in Catholicism call "vocations" and how vocations might work in the LDS church.

In Catholicism, there are 4 vocations: single life, married life, religious life, and ordained life.  The first two are self-explanatory.  Religious life is monks and nuns and friars, etc.  Ordained life is the life of the priesthood.  A Catholic is supposed to try to discern his or her vocation.  What does God want me to do?  How does God want to use my talents, my personality, my individual unique life to further His purposes?  If one feels called to the religious or ordained life, there are many different orders with different purposes.  One could discern a vocation to be a Jesuit and defend the Church and the papacy intellectually.  One could discern a vocation to the Franciscans and consecrate one's life to poverty and to the service of the poor.  One could discern a vocation to a contemplative order and spend one's life in meditation and prayer.  The list goes on and on -- it's seriously long (google "list of Catholic religious orders").  And even within these categories there are sub-categories.  If one is called to a contemplative life, one could be a standard Benedictine, a Trappist (yummy beer, ha!), a Carthusian, a Carmelite, etc.  And then within these sub-categories there are 2nd and 3rd level orders.  And so forth.

The point of discerning a vocation is spend time figuring out where my personal and unique life (including my desires and interests) and God's purposes intersect.  There is a specific place in the Catholic Church for almost all types of (Catholic) religious desires and practices.

Now, my question is, is there something similar in Mormonism?  As an outsider looking in it doesn't seem so, but maybe it is subtle and that is why I am missing it.  It appears that all Mormons are called to the married life and all Mormon men are called to the ordained life.  Young Mormon men are temporarily called to be official missionaries, which would be like an active religious order (such as the Jesuits or Franciscans), but that is a temporary vocation.  I know that there are callings in the LDS church, but these are also temporary and are given from a leader rather than discerned by the individual.

So, could the LDS church benefit from having the equivalent of Catholic orders?  Would there be benefit to having individuals discern vocations rather than being called by someone else?  Is there a way for an individual to pursue an individually discerned vocation full-time rather than having to juggle family, church directed vocation, job, etc?  And finally, where does contemplation/meditation/mysticism fit into this?  Where are all those robed Mormon monks at?

I hope I'm not coming off as being critical, because that is certainly not my purpose!  Orders are near and dear to my heart, as I have always felt drawn to the consecrated contemplative life and spend as much time at monasteries as possible, and I was hoping to spark a discussion of the ideas of "orders" (or whatever term is appropriate) in the LDS church.

+PAX+

[Jane_Doe]

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Now, my question is, is there something similar in Mormonism? 

In short, LDS don't believe a person has to pick 1 of the 4 options you describe, but can do a combination of them and/or different combinations in different seasons of life.  I'll go into a longer explanation below.  (I apologize for how disjointed it is).

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It appears that all Mormons are called to the married life

This may or may not happen in this life.  But ultimately, we do believe that it is not good for a man to be alone, and it is God's ultimate desire for everyone to have a spouse.  Again, it may or may not happen in this life, and also is dependent on us desiring this too.  

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

all Mormon men are called to the ordained life.

Note: all Mormon women are also called to serve God.

This service also looks very different than it does in the Catholic church (not permeant assignments, no vow of chastity, having a day job, etc). 

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

 Young Mormon men are temporarily called to be official missionaries, which would be like an active religious order (such as the Jesuits or Franciscans), but that is a temporary vocation. 

Women may serve too.

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

So, could the LDS church benefit from having the equivalent of Catholic orders? 

While I respect the Catholic tradition in this regard, that sounds like a horrible idea for LDS.

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

 Is there a way for an individual to pursue an individually discerned vocation full-time rather than having to juggle family, church directed vocation, job, etc?

While the LDS way of doing things can involve some juggling, in my opinion it also makes a person more rounded: we are all involved in church, family, the world, etc.  I have the joy of going to my job (I do like my job), the splendor of having my daughter in the evening, and honor of serving God in church.  Yes, my plate is full, but it is also full of joy, and I do get rest (as the Lord commands). 

Note: Catholicism did traditionally have married priests, and some rites still do today.  I also daresay that Catholic priests feel very stressed and juggling, despite the lack of family/secular day job. 

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

 Where are all those robed Mormon monks at?

This is the 21st century: we now wear suits and skirts

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I hope I'm not coming off as being critical, because that is certainly not my purpose!  Orders are near and dear to my heart, as I have always felt drawn to the consecrated contemplative life and spend as much time at monasteries as possible, and I was hoping to spark a discussion of the ideas of "orders" (or whatever term is appropriate) in the LDS church.

I don't think you're being critical at all.  In fact I enjoyed your post a lot.  I've always had a fascination with Catholic tradition in this regard.

 

 

 

(Answering these together)

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I know that there are callings in the LDS church, but these are also temporary and are given from a leader rather than discerned by the individual.

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Would there be benefit to having individuals discern vocations rather than being called by someone else? 

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

  And finally, where does contemplation/meditation/mysticism fit into this? 

LDS individuals also discern.  For example they discerns whether or not to accept a calling.  They also discern whether or not to service a mission (either during young years or senior).  They discern whom/when/where/if to marry.  They discern in their daily walk with Christ, individually and serving in the Church.  They discern where to work secularly.  They discern where to live.  

There is MUCH prayer and discernment in an LDS person's life.  We pray many times a day, preach frequently about the value of prayer, contemplation, and the gift of discernment.  These are all a huge part of LDS life. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[CV75]

56 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I hope I'm not coming off as being critical, because that is certainly not my purpose!  Orders are near and dear to my heart, as I have always felt drawn to the consecrated contemplative life and spend as much time at monasteries as possible, and I was hoping to spark a discussion of the ideas of "orders" (or whatever term is appropriate) in the LDS church.

+PAX+

We have at least two orders in the Church (Zion). The United Order (or its modern counterparts tithing, fast offerings and priesthood-administered business ventures) involves stewardship over vocational and temporal matters; and the marriage order involves stewardship over social and spiritual matters. Both are governed by the order of the holy priesthood,

[Ahab]

A vocation is something to do in particular, and there are many particular things in the Church for members of the Church to do if they want to.

Like serving as a seminary teacher or taking a similar position in the Church Education system, or serving as a bishop or a similar ecclesiastical office when offered, including women who can serve in the Relief Society or another calling in the Church.

Nor exactly as it works in the Catholic church but they are vocations in our Church.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Ahab

[RevTestament]

45 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hello friends,

In another thread about Millenials, mapman made this comment:

This got me thinking about what we in Catholicism call "vocations" and how vocations might work in the LDS church.

In Catholicism, there are 4 vocations: single life, married life, religious life, and ordained life.  The first two are self-explanatory.  Religious life is monks and nuns and friars, etc.  Ordained life is the life of the priesthood.  A Catholic is supposed to try to discern his or her vocation.  What does God want me to do?  How does God want to use my talents, my personality, my individual unique life to further His purposes?  If one feels called to the religious or ordained life, there are many different orders with different purposes.  One could discern a vocation to be a Jesuit and defend the Church and the papacy intellectually.  One could discern a vocation to the Franciscans and consecrate one's life to poverty and to the service of the poor.  One could discern a vocation to a contemplative order and spend one's life in meditation and prayer.  The list goes on and on -- it's seriously long (google "list of Catholic religious orders").  And even within these categories there are sub-categories.  If one is called to a contemplative life, one could be a standard Benedictine, a Trappist (yummy beer, ha!), a Carthusian, a Carmelite, etc.  And then within these sub-categories there are 2nd and 3rd level orders.  And so forth.

The point of discerning a vocation is spend time figuring out where my personal and unique life (including my desires and interests) and God's purposes intersect.  There is a specific place in the Catholic Church for almost all types of (Catholic) religious desires and practices.Now, my question is, is there something similar in Mormonism?  As an outsider looking in it doesn't seem so, but maybe it is subtle and that is why I am missing it.  It appears that all Mormons are called to the married life and all Mormon men are called to the ordained life.

Bingo.

Quote

  Young Mormon men are temporarily called to be official missionaries, which would be like an active religious order (such as the Jesuits or Franciscans), but that is a temporary vocation.  I know that there are callings in the LDS church, but these are also temporary and are given from a leader rather than discerned by the individual.

So, could the LDS church benefit from having the equivalent of Catholic orders?  Would there be benefit to having individuals discern vocations rather than being called by someone else?  Is there a way for an individual to pursue an individually discerned vocation full-time rather than having to juggle family, church directed vocation, job, etc?  And finally, where does contemplation/meditation/mysticism fit into this?  Where are all those robed Mormon monks at?

The "robes" are under our clothes - the garments that others poke fun at. They represent something private between us and our Lord rather than some kind of public distinction... we don't take off the garments of our commitment when we leave church, and set them aside during the week. We are not supposed to be "Sunday-only" followers. There is certainly room for meditation in the church. I believe I practice a somewhat quiet, meditative type of lifestyle. I constantly find new things to ponder/meditate and pray on. The wonder of our theology, is that it is pretty open, You don't have to believe this or that about God to be a member in good standing. For instance there is no creed saying that if we don't believe the Son was begotten before all worlds/ages, that we are anathema and will get excommunicated. We can believe almost whatever we want, but there are some things that we can't teach others without getting excommunicated. So in summary how "meditative" our lives are is totally up to us individually. I happen to ponder the scriptures a lot.

Quote

I hope I'm not coming off as being critical, because that is certainly not my purpose!  Orders are near and dear to my heart, as I have always felt drawn to the consecrated contemplative life and spend as much time at monasteries as possible, and I was hoping to spark a discussion of the ideas of "orders" (or whatever term is appropriate) in the LDS church.

+PAX+

No offense at all Miserere. Happy to answer your questions. Probably the closest LDS comparison to a monastic experience is time spent by members in the temples doing work for our deceased ancestors. While I enjoy that, however, my most wondrous experiences with the Lord are usually at home with the exception of my first temple experience with my wife. When LDS want to feel peace, the temple is usually where they go, but sacrament service is also supposed to provide that function. 

I have felt utter peace at various times in my life. Once when I visited a Seventh Day Adventist Retreat/hospital, I felt extreme serenity and peace - a kind of attraction - a spiritual connection to those around me. I wish I could say that more about my present church life.

God bless

[MiserereNobis]

37 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

While I respect the Catholic tradition in this regard, that sounds like a horrible idea for LDS.

Do you mind elaborating on why orders (especially contemplative/meditative ones) would be a horrible idea?  Is it impossible because of doctrine or because of long-established practices?

Quote

Note: Catholicism did traditionally have married priests, and some rites still do today.  I also daresay that Catholic priests feel very stressed and juggling, despite the lack of family/secular day job. 

For sure!  Due to a shortage of priests, most priests have to work very very hard and do lots of juggling.  A celibate priesthood is not dogma, but in the Latin Rite it is a long long long and well-established tradition, so the odds of it going away are miniscule.  However, in the Eastern Catholic Churches (Churches not in the Latin Rite but in full communion with Rome and the papacy) priests are allowed to be married, so long as they marry before ordination.  Eastern Orthodox Churches are the same, but they of course are not Catholic.

Quote

LDS individuals also discern.  For example they discerns whether or not to accept a calling.  They also discern whether or not to service a mission (either during young years or senior).  They discern whom/when/where/if to marry.  They discern in their daily walk with Christ, individually and serving in the Church.  They discern where to work secularly.  They discern where to live.  

There is MUCH prayer and discernment in an LDS person's life.  We pray many times a day, preach frequently about the value of prayer, contemplation, and the gift of discernment.  These are all a huge part of LDS life. 

 

I didn't mean to suggest that there isn't discernment in the LDS church.  I was just looking specifically at discerning a vocation.  You mention that Mormons discern whether or not to accept a calling.  Practically speaking, doesn't almost everyone accept the calling?  If someone turns down a calling, is that frowned upon?

Thanks for your detailed response!

[MiserereNobis]

22 minutes ago, CV75 said:

We have at least two orders in the Church (Zion). The United Order (or its modern counterparts tithing, fast offerings and priesthood-administered business ventures) involves stewardship over vocational and temporal matters; and the marriage order involves stewardship over social and spiritual matters. Both are governed by the order of the holy priesthood,

What I mean by order is more like a focus on a specific and particular aspect of the spiritual life.  In the examples I gave above, there are orders for people who want to focus on the poor, orders for people who want to meditate, orders for people who want to defend religion intellectually, etc.  Tithing doesn't quite fit into this definition.  I don't know much about the United Order (other than the basics I've learned here: it was a communal property system).  Was everyone asked to be in the United Order?  Or where people called?  Or did individuals discern for themselves?

[MiserereNobis]

14 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

 Probably the closest LDS comparison to a monastic experience is time spent by members in the temples doing work for our deceased ancestors. While I enjoy that, however, my most wondrous experiences with the Lord are usually at home with the exception of my first temple experience with my wife. When LDS want to feel peace, the temple is usually where they go, but sacrament service is also supposed to provide that function.

Do any LDS people do "temple retreats"? Where they go and spend all day everyday in the temple for multiple days in a row?

I love the consecrated atmosphere of a contemplative monastery, where everything is done with a conscious focus on God and meditation.  The ritual of prayers and mass throughout the day at specific times anchors everything else.  My retreats there allow me to pick up on spiritual rhythms and take a break from worldy ones.  I imagine the LDS temple is similar and I wonder if a temple retreat is something that LDS people do or could do (I don't know of the practicalities or the culture).

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do any LDS people do "temple retreats"? Where they go and spend all day everyday in the temple for multiple days in a row?

Back when it was a long way to the temple, such were common.  In parts of the world where it still is a long way, they are still common.  People don't sleep at the temple, but will spend their waking day(s) working/contemplating there.  Nowadays when a temple is close, it is common for those whom are able (usually retired) to spend several days a month working at the local temple.  

2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I love the consecrated atmosphere of a contemplative monastery, where everything is done with a conscious focus on God and meditation.  The ritual of prayers and mass throughout the day at specific times anchors everything else.  My retreats there allow me to pick up on spiritual rhythms and take a break from worldy ones.  I imagine the LDS temple is similar and I wonder if a temple retreat is something that LDS people do or could do (I don't know of the practicalities or the culture).

Yep!  That's a large part of it's purpose.  LDS do emphasize more on frequent visits rather than infrequent lengthy ones in order to have frequent infusions/reminders of that spiritual focus (logistics permitting, of course). 

 

[Jane_Doe]

24 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do you mind elaborating on why orders (especially contemplative/meditative ones) would be a horrible idea?  Is it impossible because of doctrine or because of long-established practices?

(Again, I mean NO disrespect to the Catholic tradition in this response- I greatly admire it actually.  This response is also just my flawed opinion).

LDS doctrine stresses becoming a disciple of Christ in all aspect of our life: in our job, family, church service, community service, etc.  Closeting ourselves off to only be one quasi-permentently seems like shutting the door on many opportunities for well-rounded growth.

24 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I didn't mean to suggest that there isn't discernment in the LDS church. 

Note: your post didn't mean like you were suggesting that at all.  You were very respectful.  I just replied the way I did, because people often fail to see the discernment in LDS tradition because it is a different tradition set up, so I was trying to highlight it.  

24 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

You mention that Mormons discern whether or not to accept a calling.  Practically speaking, doesn't almost everyone accept the calling?  If someone turns down a calling, is that frowned upon?

People usually accept callings, but not always-- a person is supposed to discern whether or not it's right for them.  Two examples from my life: they asked me to help out with scouts a week night I was required to work (obviously a no-go).  The other was when they asked me help out with the kids, at a time in my life when I REALLY needed some adult fellowship in my life.  I explained thus, and they then asked me to help out with women's fellowship activities, fulfilling a need in my life and the ward.

 

[RevTestament]

14 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do any LDS people do "temple retreats"? Where they go and spend all day everyday in the temple for multiple days in a row?

I love the consecrated atmosphere of a contemplative monastery, where everything is done with a conscious focus on God and meditation.  The ritual of prayers and mass throughout the day at specific times anchors everything else.  My retreats there allow me to pick up on spiritual rhythms and take a break from worldy ones.  I imagine the LDS temple is similar and I wonder if a temple retreat is something that LDS people do or could do (I don't know of the practicalities or the culture).

Well, I suppose some could ask for a calling as a temple worker. They will probably get obliged. Others can go to the temple as long as they want while it is open, almost every week-day if they want. I will say though that temple work is repetitive. There are 4 possible ordinances for individuals, which we perform for our ancestors as proxies. A few hours of that is usually enough for me. However, one does not have to do temple work. One could clothe and sit in the celestial room pretty much all they want. Some have suggested other ways to devote oneself. You can spend countless hours doing family history, volunteering at a bishop's storehouse, church facility such as a cannery, etc. The church doesn't really have "retreats" with some exceptions. Teenagers get invited to an annual pioneer hand-cart outing which lasts several days, and provides time for reflection - between the sweat that is. There is an annual Father-son campout, but I've never felt that to be particularly spiritual, but boy scouts I believe do provide some excellent experiences with the right leaders. The church just doesn't have particular facilities devoted to a lifestyle - there is no place in the church(other than perhaps the temple) to go and hide away from life. It seems the Lord gives us the opportunity to experience it all.

[Jane_Doe]

33 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

What I mean by order is more like a focus on a specific and particular aspect of the spiritual life.  In the examples I gave above, there are orders for people who want to focus on the poor, orders for people who want to meditate, orders for people who want to defend religion intellectually, etc. 

Note: people are motivated in different areas in their life, and do serve more that way.  For example I'm mega passionate and gifted in Family History.  So I've spent much of my life serving in various activities there: researching myself, helping others, running the Family History Center, giving classes, making trips to big libraries, etc.  My sister is passionate about temple work and feels strongly there, so she takes people (living and deceased) to the temple.   Others are gifted with children and spend tons of time there.

So LDS people can indeed be highly gifted and passionate about certain areas, but I don't say "I'm just going to do Family History" and turn down other aspects of life (just as one example).  

 

[Storm Rider]

4 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hello friends,

In another thread about Millenials, mapman made this comment:

This got me thinking about what we in Catholicism call "vocations" and how vocations might work in the LDS church.

In Catholicism, there are 4 vocations: single life, married life, religious life, and ordained life.  The first two are self-explanatory.  Religious life is monks and nuns and friars, etc.  Ordained life is the life of the priesthood.  A Catholic is supposed to try to discern his or her vocation.  What does God want me to do?  How does God want to use my talents, my personality, my individual unique life to further His purposes?  If one feels called to the religious or ordained life, there are many different orders with different purposes.  One could discern a vocation to be a Jesuit and defend the Church and the papacy intellectually.  One could discern a vocation to the Franciscans and consecrate one's life to poverty and to the service of the poor.  One could discern a vocation to a contemplative order and spend one's life in meditation and prayer.  The list goes on and on -- it's seriously long (google "list of Catholic religious orders").  And even within these categories there are sub-categories.  If one is called to a contemplative life, one could be a standard Benedictine, a Trappist (yummy beer, ha!), a Carthusian, a Carmelite, etc.  And then within these sub-categories there are 2nd and 3rd level orders.  And so forth.

The point of discerning a vocation is spend time figuring out where my personal and unique life (including my desires and interests) and God's purposes intersect.  There is a specific place in the Catholic Church for almost all types of (Catholic) religious desires and practices.

Now, my question is, is there something similar in Mormonism?  As an outsider looking in it doesn't seem so, but maybe it is subtle and that is why I am missing it.  It appears that all Mormons are called to the married life and all Mormon men are called to the ordained life.  Young Mormon men are temporarily called to be official missionaries, which would be like an active religious order (such as the Jesuits or Franciscans), but that is a temporary vocation.  I know that there are callings in the LDS church, but these are also temporary and are given from a leader rather than discerned by the individual.

So, could the LDS church benefit from having the equivalent of Catholic orders?  Would there be benefit to having individuals discern vocations rather than being called by someone else?  Is there a way for an individual to pursue an individually discerned vocation full-time rather than having to juggle family, church directed vocation, job, etc?  And finally, where does contemplation/meditation/mysticism fit into this?  Where are all those robed Mormon monks at?

I hope I'm not coming off as being critical, because that is certainly not my purpose!  Orders are near and dear to my heart, as I have always felt drawn to the consecrated contemplative life and spend as much time at monasteries as possible, and I was hoping to spark a discussion of the ideas of "orders" (or whatever term is appropriate) in the LDS church.

+PAX+

Hello MiserereNobis,

It is so good to read your thoughts and questions.  In short, we do not have an exact equivalent in the Church.  Though, as others have said, we do strive to fill the roll of the four vocations within Catholicism.  I suspect that you would find a sufficient number of LDS that would find these vocations intriguing, if not satisfying were they able to practice them within the Church.  Unfortunately, we just don't have room for a calling that takes an individual away from married life completely and permanently. 

I think these differences between our religious organizations is what makes it interesting and beneficial. Truth is not contained in a single human organization or group, yet we are committed to following all truth regardless of where it is found.  It has long been my hope that we all could focus on what is good in the religions of others rather than what falls short.  Humans have a terrible way of makes differences something to squabble about rather than identify all that binds us together.  

On another note, Pope Francis has seen fit to stirring the pot with Amoris Laetitia.  That seems to have caused quite the disturbance among the faithful.  

[cinepro]

I don't know how many "vocations" there would be in the LDS Church, but I'm sure Multi-Level Marketing would be one of them.

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I don't know how many "vocations" there would be in the LDS Church, but I'm sure Multi-Level Marketing would be one of them.

Also known as the "child of perdition" vocation.

[sheilauk]

I feel compelled to point out that we are a world wide church and whilst principles and doctrine remain the same, and there is a core of callings, not all countries do the same as the US and some of the examples don't apply in the uk.  for example, our youth do not go on pioneer treks and we don't have scout or guide packs associated with the church (not that we don't have scouts and guides but they are usually based elsewhere).  as far as I am aware, we don't have storehouses or canneries.  and MLM's aren't common!  

Re the temple - in the uk the single adults have regular temple weeks - twice a year at each of our two temples, single adults gather Monday - Saturday to do temple work,  have firesides, contemplate, study and have fun together.  They stay at the temple accommodation for that period. haven't been myself yet, but hope to one day.  I find the temple to be very peaceful and a good place to be contemplative.

[3DOP]

Hey Miserere,

Good to see you. I am wondering if it should be added that one does not make up one's own mind apart from authority with regards to religious and ordained life as Catholics either. My son spent five years discerning a possible vocation to the priesthood. It ended after a 30 day Ignatian retreat when his spiritual director told him (to his great relief and joy) that he didn't have a vocation to the priesthood. (I'll change my avatar one of these days.)There is an important sense in which the seminarian or postulant or otherwise unprofessed religious must get their "callings" from higher authorities. Others always have to be convinced that you have a vocation to such a life.

So where have you gone for retreats in a monastery? Are they lay retreats or are the brothers also participating at the same time? Have you ever done an Ignatian retreat (according to the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius)? They do them close by in Phoenix as well as Los Gatos, CA outside San Jose. I like Los Gatos. It is on a secluded hillside with lots of walking trails. The Society does a five day compressed retreat for us lay folk which you might appreciate. Or maybe you would go in more for the whole hog 30 day? It is all silent of course. Hopefully, the exterior silence aids us in gaining interior silence. That is one of the principles that the priests emphasize over and over. It is for the purpose of helping us to hear that still, small voice which Elijah heard. If you are interested, there is a small, inexpensive book available by Angelus Press called "Christian Warfare" that is adapted extensively to the exercises which is used on the retreats.

3DOP

Edited February 24, 2017 by 3DOP

[Calm]

It may have already been said...have read whole thread yet

I see a greater comparison between these groups...

single-single

married-married

religious---full time missionary,temporary full time callings

ordained---full time General authorities (about 250-300 men iirc)

Our lay priesthood/temple endowed seems closer to a "parttime" ordained life in the sense of lifestyles, even if these blessings are intended to impact our lives 24/7.  We act in ordained callings (are women ordained as temple workers or "set apart", brain just turned off and not sure of correct language) in addition to having secular roles that most often take up more of our time.  Though if monks and nuns are in some fashion set apart, then I would put temple workers possibly in that category if nuns and monks also are actors in rituals (thinking the formal prayers performed multiple times during a day).  

There are likely overlapping categories for our version of religious and ordained because of variations in forms of participation in rituals/sacraments/ordinances, level of consecration of time and property (full time missionaries retain any personal property not needed to pay for mission, though often supported by other church members, including through a general fund), the lay leaders like Bishop and Relief Society President whose functions take up a huge chunk of their lives.

If one was financially secure, one could choose to attend the temple full time or work on genealogy.  There are some who I think treat such as almost the equivalent of the Catholic vocation.  

Edited February 24, 2017 by Calm

[Rain]

13 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

So, could the LDS church benefit from having the equivalent of Catholic orders?  Would there be benefit to having individuals discern vocations rather than being called by someone else?  Is there a way for an individual to pursue an individually discerned vocation full-time rather than having to juggle family, church directed vocation, job, etc? 

Doctrine according to Rain:

We sort of do have that, though it is done a little differently and not everyone pursues the idea.  It is called a mission, but not like a 2 year proselyting mission.  And many people don't clearly define what their mission(s) are.  It's a big thing to me because a blessing I had talked about finding what my mission in life is. I suspect that many will find something about their missions in their blessings.  I have seen it in those I have read even if it didn't come in specific words like "mission in life".

One of my missions is motherhood.  A lot of women think  of motherhood being their mission in life even if they don't actually use the term "mission".  My opinion is that all or 99% of mothers also have another mission.  

You can get through life and succeed without knowing what your mission is, but I've come to feel that if we know what that mission is then it will help us to be and accomplish even more.

Rather than set missions they are individualized by the Spirit.  I have a friend who felt like her mission was working with children.  She became a teacher.  I know someone whose mission in life is to "lift others" and chose a profession  and experiences to be able to do that.  Some here on this board could very well have a mission to help others keep their faith.  Whatever they are they have a spiritual component even if it wouldn't seem so.  For example, an architect could have a mission in life to create buildings that raise peoples thoughts, but most of the things that person may experience may be a lot of designs that seem mundane.   

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Rain

[CV75]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

What I mean by order is more like a focus on a specific and particular aspect of the spiritual life.  In the examples I gave above, there are orders for people who want to focus on the poor, orders for people who want to meditate, orders for people who want to defend religion intellectually, etc.  Tithing doesn't quite fit into this definition.  I don't know much about the United Order (other than the basics I've learned here: it was a communal property system).  Was everyone asked to be in the United Order?  Or where people called?  Or did individuals discern for themselves?

I think that people living close to God will discern what He wants them to do at any particular time and place. Living close to God also helps them discover and develop talents and interests that contribute to carrying out what He wants them to do. And rather than finding an organizational niche in which to express these talents and interests, a saint is encouraged to participate as fully in all areas of the Lord's work as practicable, both within and outside of the organization, the objective being to continue from grace to grace until he receives a “fulness.”

I think we both respond to Church callings and discover our life callings, both being essential to glorifying God. In my thinking, Church callings are defined by those who have the keys of the kingdom, and one's contributions are structured through quorums and auxiliaries. Life callings transcend the Church organization alone, and while they might be alluded to in patriarchal blessings by those with the keys to do so, they are always defined by God Himself and revealed to the receptive.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, sheilauk said:

I feel compelled to point out that we are a world wide church and whilst principles and doctrine remain the same, and there is a core of callings, not all countries do the same as the US and some of the examples don't apply in the uk.  for example, our youth do not go on pioneer treks and we don't have scout or guide packs associated with the church (not that we don't have scouts and guides but they are usually based elsewhere).  as far as I am aware, we don't have storehouses or canneries.  and MLM's aren't common!  

Re the temple - in the uk the single adults have regular temple weeks - twice a year at each of our two temples, single adults gather Monday - Saturday to do temple work,  have firesides, contemplate, study and have fun together.  They stay at the temple accommodation for that period. haven't been myself yet, but hope to one day.  I find the temple to be very peaceful and a good place to be contemplative.

I was on my mission there when the Preston Temple was dedicated. Stayed in those accommodations during the Open House. I really should go back and visit soon. Maybe show up at one of those and meet someone.  

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hey Miserere,

Good to see you. I am wondering if it should be added that one does not make up one's own mind apart from authority with regards to religious and ordained life as Catholics either. My son spent five years discerning a possible vocation to the priesthood. It ended after a 30 day Ignatian retreat when his spiritual director told him (to his great relief and joy) that he didn't have a vocation to the priesthood. (I'll change my avatar one of these days.)There is an important sense in which the seminarian or postulant or otherwise unprofessed religious must get their "callings" from higher authorities. Others always have to be convinced that you have a vocation to such a life.

Excellent point and you are right, of course.  I guess I was focusing more on the individual discernment aspect to see if Mormons had equivalents.

Quote

So where have you gone for retreats in a monastery? Are they lay retreats or are the brothers also participating at the same time? Have you ever done an Ignatian retreat (according to the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius)? They do them close by in Phoenix as well as Los Gatos, CA outside San Jose. I like Los Gatos. It is on a secluded hillside with lots of walking trails. The Society does a five day compressed retreat for us lay folk which you might appreciate. Or maybe you would go in more for the whole hog 30 day? It is all silent of course. Hopefully, the exterior silence aids us in gaining interior silence. That is one of the principles that the priests emphasize over and over. It is for the purpose of helping us to hear that still, small voice which Elijah heard. If you are interested, there is a small, inexpensive book available by Angelus Press called "Christian Warfare" that is adapted extensively to the exercises which is used on the retreats.

I mainly spend time at Our Lady of Guadalupe Monastery (which I'm sure you know of, since it is SSPX affiliated, but for others, here's the website: http://www.ourladyofguadalupemonastery.com).  It is very close to where I live.  I also travel to the Christ in the Desert Monastery, which is a few hours further (http://www.christdesert.org).  I love them both.  I've done an Ignatian retreat, but not at these monasteries.  I usually just spend a week or so doing what the brothers do: working and praying.

[sheilauk]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I was on my mission there when the Preston Temple was dedicated. Stayed in those accommodations during the Open House. I really should go back and visit soon. Maybe show up at one of those and meet someone.  

I'm sure you'd be very welcome!   Preston temple weeks are May and November! 

[notHagoth7]

16 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

What I mean by order is more like a focus on a specific and particular aspect of the spiritual life.  In the examples I gave above, there are orders for people who want to focus on the poor, orders for people who want to meditate, orders for people who want to defend religion intellectually, etc.  Tithing doesn't quite fit into this definition.  I don't know much about the United Order (other than the basics I've learned here: it was a communal property system).  Was everyone asked to be in the United Order?  Or where people called?  Or did individuals discern for themselves?

We are to be anxiously engaged of our own volition rather than passively waiting to be assigned or commanded in all things.

As to how/where one chooses to roll up their sleeves, f you have a desire to serve, you are (thereby) called. The key is in Alma 33, to let such a good-seed desire take root and grow/bear fruit. That requires patiently nurturing/tending it.

Mankind is our business.

And in that work, the eye can't justly say to the hand 'i have no need of you." or good riddance. just as a true Mormon can't say the same to a true Catholic, Protestant, Jew, etc.

We are all in this together....'til the conflict is o'er. Happy are we. :0)

Edited February 25, 2017 by notHagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

23 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

....................................................................  

I didn't mean to suggest that there isn't discernment in the LDS church.  I was just looking specifically at discerning a vocation.  You mention that Mormons discern whether or not to accept a calling.  Practically speaking, doesn't almost everyone accept the calling?  If someone turns down a calling, is that frowned upon?

......................................................

People turn down callings all the time, for a variety of reasons -- poor health, other obligations, feeling unworthy, etc. -- and no negative implication is normally drawn, although most folks see the calling as coming from God, or the Holy Spirit, so it is not turned down lightly.  However, that is a private, confidential matter.

LDS members also frequently feel called to do some things without a specific request from a priesthood leader.  For example, most young men and women who desire to go on a mission decide that for themselves, and then make it known to parents and priesthood leaders.  Once they have been interviewed and have put their papers in (with specific request on where to go), they can look forward to receiving the formal call to report to the Missionary Training Center within a few months.  Many members also serve missions later in life, either proselyting or service missions.  My ward just had a retired couple leave last week to serve in the same mission in Africa where they have served two previous missions.  When they return in two years, they will have put in six years there out in the bush.  Both men and women exercise priesthood power as full time ministers of the Gospel.

Many retired people feel called to serve in temples of the Lord as Ordinance Workers, where they may work a couple of shifts a week taking part in a wide array of different ordinances, from baptism for the dead, confirmations, initiatory rites, endowments, and various sorts of sealings (marriage & family).  This is not usually a calling from local priesthood.  One goes to his local priesthood leader, requests permission to be a Veil Worker or Ordinance Worker, and must go through a couple of interviews to determine worthiness.  If approved, one then must be formally set apart (sanctified) for that calling by temple staff.  It is the same process for both men and women, and both men and women exercise priesthood power in performing the required ordinances.  To me, the sisters walking down the hallways of a temple look very much like nuns in habits, all arrayed in pure white.  There are currently 155 operating LDS temples worldwide, requiring tens of thousands of LDS workers -- aside from the many patrons who come whenever they can to perform ordinances for themselves or for the dead (which requires a temple recommend).  The esoteric and exoteric sacraments of the LDS Church are rather extensive.

Still others feel called to serve as instructors within the Church Educational System (CES) Seminaries and Institutes worldwide.  In the case of early morning seminary instruction, any well-informed local member may be qualified to teach the under-age young people, but the personnel at the college level are full-time paid instructors hired by the Church to teach college students at institutes near a college campus.  Those CES instructors must have at least a baccalaureate -- preferably from BYU in Church History and Doctrine -- although the sophistication of the instruction does not rise to the serious level of a Protestant or Catholic Seminary.  For many CES instructors, this is a career, with a pension and benefits.  In some ways, it even constitutes a separate "holy order" within the LDS Church administration, somewhat like the lifetime appointments of some general authorities of the Church.

Closer to home, many women especially feel called to Compassionate Service -- a very well organized effort under the auspices of the Relief Society.  The men are more likely to find a place within Scouting, helping to instill high moral values along with fun in the young men.  At the same time, the young men are already functioning as deacons, teachers and priests in the Aaronic Priesthood from ages 12 through 18, and are often proud to have limited temple recommends allowing them to do early morning baptisms for the dead at the local temple.  Many of them will then be ordained as elders in the Melchizedek Priesthood, as they prepare to go on a proselyting mission.

Like the Jews, Mormons see no reason to adopt monasticism in order to enjoy the full panoply of religious blessings, nor to fulfill religious obligations.  Mormons believe that full engagement with the world is what God wants them to do, to fully experience the difficulties and joys of family and community life.  This life is a test and must be fully explored.