bsjkki Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Just for starters we can begin with your very first statement... I think you need a little biology lesson. Find me a biologist, medical doctor, whomever credentialed individual you want, that asserts and backs up with research that gender is determined at conception. No one believes that. The rest of your comment is downhill from there. Do you mean gender or biological sex?
bluebell Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 13 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Just for starters we can begin with your very first statement... I think you need a little biology lesson. Find me a biologist, medical doctor, whomever credentialed individual you want, that asserts and backs up with research that gender is determined at conception. No one believes that. The rest of your comment is downhill from there. Typically, when everything functions like it is supposed to function, a baby's gender is determined by the DNA of the male sperm that fertilizes the egg at conception. I think that's what pogi is talking about. 1
bsjkki Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 The official church response, " The Church is studying the announcement made yesterday by Boy Scouts of America. Boy Scouts has assured its religious chartering organizations that, as in the past, they will be able to organize their troops in a way fully consistent with their religious beliefs. In recent years the Church has made several changes to its programs for youth and continues to look for ways to better serve its families and young people worldwide" http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-response-bsa-policy-announcement 3
bsjkki Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) Does the church see any difference between gender and biological sex? Based on my reading of the Proclamation on the Family and church policy, they seem to be one and the same. According to Miriam Webster, gender is more than biological. the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones). "traditional concepts of gender" synonyms: sex "variables included age, income, and gender" Edited January 31, 2017 by bsjkki
Calm Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) I suspect church standard usage is identical in meaning, even if some members/leaders are aware of the difference in usage medically/psychologically/socially/politically these days. Or rather biological sex is one aspect of gender now that I think of it given that it is taught gender existed before biology: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/10/gender-is-an-essential-characteristic-of-eternal-identity-and-purpose?lang=eng Edited January 31, 2017 by Calm
rongo Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 10 minutes ago, bsjkki said: The official church response, " The Church is studying the announcement made yesterday by Boy Scouts of America. Boy Scouts has assured its religious chartering organizations that, as in the past, they will be able to organize their troops in a way fully consistent with their religious beliefs. In recent years the Church has made several changes to its programs for youth and continues to look for ways to better serve its families and young people worldwide" http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-response-bsa-policy-announcement Boy, it sounds like the status quo still reigns, but there is just an inkling of annoyance simmering under the surface, isn't there? Why else end with a seemingly incongruous statement that the Church has adjusted its youth programs and "continues to look for ways to better serve its families and young people?" It's like when when the gay leaders announcement was made, and the Church rattled its saber until Robert Gates flew in to kiss the ring. I seem to recall the statement then hinting that the Church could become a free agent if there were any more shenanigans. I know many people who would be dancing in the streets if the Church pulled the plug on BSA . . . 1
Calm Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 https://www.lds.org/manual/a-parents-guide/chapter-4-teaching-children-from-four-to-eleven-years?lang=eng "They are Christlike attributes to which both sexes should aspire. (See D&C 4.)" "Gender identity" is now used instead of "sex status": "President Kimball clarified the eternal significance of gender identity when he said: “Some people are ignorant or vicious and apparently attempting to destroy the concept of masculinity and femininity. More and more girls dress, groom, and act like men. More and more men dress, groom, and act like women. The high purposes of life are damaged and destroyed by the growing unisex theory. God made man in his own image, male and female made he them. With relatively few accidents of nature, we are born male or female. The Lord knew best. Certainly, men and women who would change their sex status will answer to their Maker” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1974, p. 8; or Ensign, Nov. 1974, p. 8)."
Calm Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, rongo said: Boy, it sounds like the status quo still reigns, but there is just an inkling of annoyance simmering under the surface, isn't there? Why else end with a seemingly incongruous statement that the Church has adjusted its youth programs and "continues to look for ways to better serve its families and young people?" It's like when when the gay leaders announcement was made, and the Church rattled its saber until Robert Gates flew in to kiss the ring. I seem to recall the statement then hinting that the Church could become a free agent if there were any more shenanigans. I know many people who would be dancing in the streets if the Church pulled the plug on BSA . . . Could be reassurance that the Church is paying attention. 1
pogi Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 38 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Just for starters we can begin with your very first statement... I think you need a little biology lesson. Find me a biologist, medical doctor, whomever credentialed individual you want, that asserts and backs up with research that gender is determined at conception. No one believes that. The rest of your comment is downhill from there. Well, I do have quite a bit of background in biology and the medical sciences. Last I checked the sex chromosomes are determined at conception, and in mammals primary sex determination is "strictly chromosomal". Any secondary phenotypic sex characteristics are hormonal. Both primary and secondary sex determinism are biological and not psychologically based at all. Are we really going to argue this point? Again, show me any evidence at all that sex dysphoria is a biological disorder. If it doesn't exist, then we simply can't rule out the possibility that it is a psychological disorder. To refute this point is blatant disregard of the evidence (or lack thereof). I am not stating that there is no biological component, but if there is, we haven't discovered it yet. That is all I am saying. I find it amusing that people get all up in arms and offended, calling other people "ignorant" etc., when in fact the science is not conclusive one way or the other. There are too many unknowns. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Just now, pogi said: Well, I do have quite a bit of background in biology and the medical sciences. Last I checked the sex chromosomes are determined at conception, and in mammals primary sex determination is "strictly chromosomal". Any secondary phenotypic sex characteristics are hormonal. Both primary and secondary sex determinism are biological and not psychologically based at all. Are we really going to argue this point? Again, show me any evidence at all that sex dysphoria is a biological disorder. If it doesn't exist, then we simply can't rule out the possibility that it is a psychological disorder. To refute this point is blatant disregard of the evidence (or lack thereof). I am not stating that there is no biological component, but if there is, we haven't discovered it yet. That is all I am saying. I find it amusing that people get all up in arms and offended, calling other people "ignorant" etc., when in fact the science is not conclusive one way or the other. There are too many unknowns. I deleted my previous comment because I misunderstood your statement (but not fast enough ). I was thinking of the characteristics and hormonal influences, not the chromosomes. I'm not arguing anything about dysphoria. 1
Popular Post BlueDreams Posted January 31, 2017 Popular Post Posted January 31, 2017 19 hours ago, The Nehor said: I hope this is the end. A break seems inevitable so it might as well be now. Gender identity change confuses me. We have children who we give few legal rights because they are young and unstable but somehow we accept that they are of sound mind to make an irrevocable surgical changes and make decisions that will have ramifications throughout their life? I haven't kept up with this thread AT ALL. But saw this. I generally agree. But to be fair, most transgender children I don't think CAN get surgerical changes until they're adults. It's a terrible idea before puberty because their gender identity is likely to change. After puberty, if DID persists, it's likely to remain into adulthood. But I'm also leery of things like hormone therapy at young ages in general because I don't feel like we really fully know what long term effects may exist. I also have problems with medicating most children, sans a few extreme cases, with anything to do with pychological concerns for similar reasons. With luv, BD 6
pogi Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 58 minutes ago, rongo said: I know many people who would be dancing in the streets if the Church pulled the plug on BSA . . . As a scout master, I would be one of the first in the streets boogyin' it down! 2
Kenngo1969 Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: Next up...girls..join the GSA...at church sponsored GSA, Go camping ..learn new things...forget the cookies! [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.] As far as I am concerned...who ever wants to participate..should be able to. Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I loooove Girl Scout cookies, especially Tagalongs!
The Nehor Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 19 hours ago, The Nehor said: I felt so strongly about this I felt the need to say it four times...either that or I kept getting error messages that the site was down. On a personal Cinepro for agreeing so strongly with my views that he liked all of them. Not sure that was sarcasm or enthusiastic support but I appreciate the thought.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 2 hours ago, Rock_N_Roll said: ... Drop out of the BSA and create a joint YM/YW program that includes the best of all the programs. Let the girls earn badges/awards alongside the boys. Have the equivalent of Eagle be attainable to both the boys and the girls, even if it’s reached via slightly different paths. I was with ya, until that whole "slightly different paths" thing. Now hear this! Now hear this! Other than unfortunate quirks of nature which give them different plumbing (and which enlightened mankind will be able to surmount one day), there are no appreciable differences between the sexes, and it's a damnable heresy to suggest otherwise!
The Nehor Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 4 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: I was with ya, until that whole "slightly different paths" thing. Now hear this! Now hear this! Other than unfortunate quirks of nature which give them different plumbing (and which enlightened mankind will be able to surmount one day), there are no appreciable differences between the sexes, and it's a damnable heresy to suggest otherwise!
JAHS Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 More info here: "LDS Church announces it will study more closely Boy Scouts' allowance of transgender boys" http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865672256/LDS-Church-announces-it-will-study-more-closely-Boy-Scouts-allowance-of-transgender-boys.html 1
CMZ Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Calm said: https://www.lds.org/manual/a-parents-guide/chapter-4-teaching-children-from-four-to-eleven-years?lang=eng "They are Christlike attributes to which both sexes should aspire. (See D&C 4.)" "Gender identity" is now used instead of "sex status": "President Kimball clarified the eternal significance of gender identity when he said: “Some people are ignorant or vicious and apparently attempting to destroy the concept of masculinity and femininity. More and more girls dress, groom, and act like men. More and more men dress, groom, and act like women. The high purposes of life are damaged and destroyed by the growing unisex theory. God made man in his own image, male and female made he them. With relatively few accidents of nature, we are born male or female. The Lord knew best. Certainly, men and women who would change their sex status will answer to their Maker” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1974, p. 8; or Ensign, Nov. 1974, p. 8)." https://ldsgender.wordpress.com/2017/01/28/important-update-on-another-documented-case-of-approved-lds-sex-change/
Jeanne Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said: Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I loooove Girl Scout cookies, especially Tagalongs! Yeah..I love those and the peanut butter ones! 1
CMZ Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 Perhaps this thread should be merged with the non-binary gender one.
Buckeye Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 2 hours ago, pogi said: As a scout master, I would be one of the first in the streets boogyin' it down! Until they called you to the high council.
The Nehor Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 12 minutes ago, Buckeye said: Until they called you to the high council. Still an easier calling. How many times have chiggers eaten you alive at a High Council Meeting? 1
mnn727 Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 13 hours ago, Buckeye said: All this policy change does is to say that the youth decides their gender identity, not a birthing nurse. If you have external plumbing you are a male If you have internal plumbing you are a female Its very easy. There is no "deciding"
emeliza Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 12 minutes ago, mnn727 said: If you have external plumbing you are a male If you have internal plumbing you are a female Its very easy. There is no "deciding" Unless you are intersex which is on the rise last I looked. 2
Johnnie Cake Posted February 1, 2017 Author Posted February 1, 2017 41 minutes ago, mnn727 said: If you have external plumbing you are a male If you have internal plumbing you are a female Its very easy. There is no "deciding" And if you are born with both...then what?
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