Will this be the Breaking Point? BSA to Allow Transgender Boys

[california boy]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

That's a heavy expectation for adolescent boys and leaders. Looks to me like a recipe for for disaster. We shall see.

You have far more confidence than I. How would you arrange latrines, swimming, and tent partners? Would the trans girl be required to wear a boy or girl swimsuit?

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Don't make going to the latrines a group activity.  Put the gay scouts in the tents with the transgender scouts.  Usually transgenders are embarrassed at even having breasts.  In my experience, most of them don't really have any developed breasts.  Those that do can wear a tee shirt.  

If you want it to work for these kids then you can make it work.  If you don't want it to work for these kids, then no matter what solutions one comes up with won't work.  It is that simple.  And given the attitude of the church against anyone who is gay or transgender, I can certainly see why none of this will work.  The transgender kid would probably be better off not participating in scouts and eventually not participating in the church.  

 

 

[rockpond]

50 minutes ago, canard78 said:

It's either old enough or it's not. The fact that the church changed their policy in response to an american law change says as much about the americo-centrism of the church leaders as it does about their attitudes to homosexuals.

Well said.  Is it the age of accountability or not.

[rockpond]

43 minutes ago, california boy said:

 

Don't make going to the latrines a group activity.  Put the gay scouts in the tents with the transgender scouts.  Usually transgenders are embarrassed at even having breasts.  In my experience, most of them don't really have any developed breasts.  Those that do can wear a tee shirt.  

If you want it to work for these kids then you can make it work.  If you don't want it to work for these kids, then no matter what solutions one comes up with won't work.  It is that simple.  And given the attitude of the church against anyone who is gay or transgender, I can certainly see why none of this will work.  The transgender kid would probably be better off not participating in scouts and eventually not participating in the church.  

 

 

This is like the old concern people expressed:  "How will we deal with gays in the military?"  Until one realizes that gay men have ALWAYS served in the military.  (And gay women, though not quite as long as gay men.)

This is about whether transgender kids have to remain in the shadows or if they can be open, honest, and able to live with integrity.

It's also about whether the rest of us can live the values that the BSA espouses:  friendly, courteous, kind...

Edited February 2, 2017 by rockpond

[CV75]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

This is like the old concern people expressed:  "How will we deal with gays in the military?"  Until one realizes that gay men have ALWAYS served in the military.  (And gay women, though not quite as long as gay men.)

This is about whether transgender kids have to remain in the shadows or if they can be open, honest, and able to live with integrity.

It's also about whether the rest of us can live the values that the BSA espouses:  friendly, courteous, kind...

“When you were born we incorrectly assumed you were a girl but eventually realized and accepted, along with you, that you are a boy.” Both the shadows and the openness, the virtues and the failings begin at home under the parents’ care. The principles of Zion fortunately supersede both BSA policy and sex/gender politics for those who practice them. So it's really about whether the values of a Zion community are taking hold in homes and the society at large.

Edited February 2, 2017 by CV75

[Calm]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I can see how it would work, sure.

This seems like a step for making scouts for boys and girls.  Which seems like a good thing to me.  In my experience too many boys have no interest whatsoever in scouts for the Church to make it a boys program, as if all boys must conform.  Also, there are plenty of girls who I'd imagine would be interested in boy scouts.  At that point, though, the Church might get fed up and toss the program. 

It might actually removed some of the issues with transgender acceptance if it became coed, clothing was mostly identical for all genders (obviously some cuts need to be different, but I am talking about styling...you don't go for a feminine or masculine look, but a practical one).  Lots of public bathrooms are generic, pretty much all home bathrooms are.  You make a rule no shirtless attire, which as I said above is better for health anyway.  Tent arrangements should be set up from personal, private interviewing so it doesn't become a public issue unless absolutely necessary (confrontation of bullying for example).  This last should be done in all and any case, imo.  There are plenty of other reasons kids get bullied and they should be allowed space away from those prone to it and not just expected to toughen up.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Calm

[CMZ]

On 2/1/2017 at 3:38 PM, Calm said:

Not if it is false information, imo.

We don't know it's true but we also don't know it's false.

[Bernard Gui]

On February 2, 2017 at 6:55 AM, CV75 said:

Yes, I agree it is a heavy expectation considering what we are used to, and change is difficult anyway. Some can make this as simple as, "Billy doesn't look like a boy but his parents say he is, so don't stare or tease," and some can't. Some choose to identify their child as a transgender boy than as simply a boy. On one hand this sets him apart and warns others not to mess with him (or more politic, inspires their validation), and on the other it draws attention from and invalidates the norm.

 

Fortunately, LDS parents, families and troops have the advantage of a Zion doctrine with inspired leaders and council process when needed to address individual concerns. I think the parents have most of the responsibility in teaching their child how to behave in situations that might cause him or those around him stress, whether he is the exception or more in line with the norm. I think the most practical solutions would be individualized according to the body habitus and personality of the boy in question.

 

I think that National BSA policies on privacy and modesty would still allow for local administration in accordance with the norms of the faith-based sponsors.

I think if there was no Boy Scout organization, the Young Men Program would still include a significant activity module for their quorums. The key organization is the quorum. If a parent says their transgender child is a boy, I think the bishop would by and large have to acknowledge that, and as I mentioned before, may have to do some soul-searching or consultation with his leadership chain as to what to do about that boy's quorum participation.

 

But as I said before, these issues are not new and priesthood leaders have dealt with them from the days of yore, albeit perhaps less publicly. I think the sexualization of children in the mass media, the politicization of sexuality (or maybe it's the sexualization of politics), and "it's all about me-me-me" have undermined the potential benefits of making personal issues more open to discussion.

 

What you say. I'm a long-time Scouter...Bobcat through Eagle, Order of the Arrow, Woodbadge, commissioner, council Webelos Camp director, four Eagle sons and now our first grandson, and every exIsting LDS scout calling.

BSA like the Church and all conservative institutions is in a hard place....on the front line of societal upheaval. 

It's sad to see what appears to be the probable LDS and other conservative sponsors break with BSA as it bows more and more to political pressures, the duplication of effort with the YM program, and the lackadaisical attitude of many non-volunteer leaders.

Some friends who love Scouting used to have their boys go to non-LDS troops for a true Scout experience, but not so much now that changes are being made. But perhaps it will be for the best. 

By the way, I don't bleed green. Not by a long shot, but I loved my Scout experience and I wore the full uniform when I attended events.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

What you say. I'm a long-time Scouter...Bobcat through Eagle, Order of the Arrow, Woodbadge, commissioner, council Webelos Camp director, four Eagle sons and now our first grandson, and every exIsting LDS scout calling.

BSA like the Church and all conservative institutions is in a hard place....on the front line of societal upheaval. 

It's sad to see what appears to be the probable LDS and other conservative sponsors break with BSA as it bows more and more to political pressures, the duplication of effort with the YM program, and the lackadaisical attitude of many non-volunteer leaders.

Some friends who love Scouting used to have their boys go to non-LDS troops for a true Scout experience, but not so much now that changes are being made. But perhaps it will be for the best. 

By the way, I don't bleed green. Not by a long shot, but I loved my Scout experience and I do wore the full uniform when I attended events.

I had a different experience growing up. We moved from NYC to "the country" in time for me to become a late-bloomer Cub Scout, and soon after, the Boy Scouts. On our first camp-out, one boy cried half the night in our tent and I thought "this is for sissies." But I was motivated and an (not over-!)achiever, so when I pushed through the requirements without much acknowledgement from the Scoutmaster (whose own sons got all the attention), I dropped out before I turned 12. Our family was not LDS, and this was not an LDS troop, by the way. The Scoutmaster redeemed himself in my estimation later by sitting on the board that recommended and sponsored me as a foreign exchange student years later in high school.

When my son was in 1st grade, I did want him to have a better experience than I did, so I registered him the local unit (our Church unit did not have Cub Scouts). I volunteered for the committee and participated fully as a parent. I must confess part of my motivation was to keep an eye on any perverts that might be hanging around... When he turned 11 he joined the ward's 11-year old scouts (I forget what we did for that interim year) and for all his teen years I was called as Scoutmaster or in the Young Men's organization in some capacity. So I came to appreciate it as  valuable resource to the Aaronic Priesthood quorums. He earned his Eagle right on schedule.

I see the lackadaisical attitude you mention in LDS units as a function of not understanding or appreciating the role of the priesthood quorums (Melchizedek as well), which are partly social, civic, and recreational as well as instructive, spiritual and ministerial. The BSA is an inspired social, civic and recreational approach, at least we have adopted it as such. Some feel it is too cumbersome and complicated, but my goodness, so are all the other things a quorum does, if it does them right--peoples' lives are quite messy! And the Church gets into some pretty complex business endeavors as well; doesn't make them any less inspired. Zion is not for rubes, LOL.

I would like to see the Church show how the social upheaval affecting BSA policy can be handled without compromising doctrine, and promoting the cause of Zion, but if it comes to that not being possible, I'm sure she will come up with something else.

 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I had a different experience growing up. We moved from NYC to "the country" in time for me to become a late-bloomer Cub Scout, and soon after, the Boy Scouts. On our first camp-out, one boy cried half the night in our tent and I thought "this is for sissies." But I was motivated and an (not over-!)achiever, so when I pushed through the requirements without much acknowledgement from the Scoutmaster (whose own sons got all the attention), I dropped out before I turned 12. Our family was not LDS, and this was not an LDS troop, by the way. The Scoutmaster redeemed himself in my estimation later by sitting on the board that recommended and sponsored me as a foreign exchange student years later in high school.

When my son was in 1st grade, I did want him to have a better experience than I did, so I registered him the local unit (our Church unit did not have Cub Scouts). I volunteered for the committee and participated fully as a parent. I must confess part of my motivation was to keep an eye on any perverts that might be hanging around... When he turned 11 he joined the ward's 11-year old scouts (I forget what we did for that interim year) and for all his teen years I was called as Scoutmaster or in the Young Men's organization in some capacity. So I came to appreciate it as  valuable resource to the Aaronic Priesthood quorums. He earned his Eagle right on schedule.

I see the lackadaisical attitude you mention in LDS units as a function of not understanding or appreciating the role of the priesthood quorums (Melchizedek as well), which are partly social, civic, and recreational as well as instructive, spiritual and ministerial. The BSA is an inspired social, civic and recreational approach, at least we have adopted it as such. Some feel it is too cumbersome and complicated, but my goodness, so are all the other things a quorum does, if it does them right--peoples' lives are quite messy! And the Church gets into some pretty complex business endeavors as well; doesn't make them any less inspired. Zion is not for rubes, LOL.

I would like to see the Church show how the social upheaval affecting BSA policy can be handled without compromising doctrine, and promoting the cause of Zion, but if it comes to that not being possible, I'm sure she will come up with something else.

 

Amen.