Will this be the Breaking Point? BSA to Allow Transgender Boys

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Wrong, you're showing your ignorance on this issue, and I find it offensive.  Please don't pretend to be an expert on what is or isn't a psychological problem.  You're perpetuating a stereotype here, just like people used to believe homosexuality is a psychological problem, this kind of an attitude has real negative consequences.  

Unfortunately these kinds of surgeries also have real negative consequences and I find your defense of physicians perfoming elective surgery that tends to increase psychological problems offensive and do not see how it can square with the Hippocratic Oath.

I think your got your analogy to homosexuality wrong. People (some well-meaning and some not) thought the solution to homosexuality was psychological conditioning to 'fix' it running the gamut from therapy all the way to near-torture.

Now the solution to this problem is the radical elective introduction of hormones and invasive surgery? How about infantilism fetishes? Would you be okay with surgery to return then to an infantile state because that is who they are? This is insane. Where does it end? That someone wants something and thinks it will make them happy is not license to throw ethics out the window and give it to them especially when the results of giving it to them has been shown not to be generally positive.

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have serious reservations about the new cultural craze to allow every child who has ever thought they would be happier as the opposite gender and wanted to pursue that to go forth and do so.  

And i really don't like the BSA program that the boys are forced into (though i am currently forcing my 14 year old to work towards his Eagle) and would be gleeful if the church dropped it.  

But, i don't have any problem with transgendered kids in BS troops.  They're just kids.  I don't have to agree with it to be kind and inclusive.

My thoughts are very similar, bluebell (on all three points you made).

I am an eagle scout and my new calling has me back with the young men.  While I love the skills that are taught and the challenges of scouting, I often think how nice it would be to JUST be able to focus on Duty to God achievements rather than having both DtG and scouts.  My sons are very involved in church, school activities, and sports.  It often feels like I am forcefully trying to wedge scouting into our lives.

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

This is wrong, I'm not aware of anyone in the modern psychiatric community that would label Gender dysphoria as a psychological problem, and I find that labeling akin to other labeling irresponsible and hurtful.  

The WebMD site says this:

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/gender-dysphoria#1

Lets not label things as psychological problems due to ignorance about a subject.  

I am aware of people in the modern psychiatric community who would call it a psychological problem.

The WHO does call it a mental illness while the US DSM does not. It is considered to be a disorder. Last report I saw showed that over 60% of transgendered individuals have untreated mental disorders in addition to gender dysphoria. Surgery and hormones do are not shown to have a positive effect on overall emotional and psychological health. In other words it is not helping.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Wrong, you're showing your ignorance on this issue, and I find it offensive.  Please don't pretend to be an expert on what is or isn't a psychological problem.  You're perpetuating a stereotype here, just like people used to believe homosexuality is a psychological problem, this kind of an attitude has real negative consequences.  

Lets get one thing straight, a person's sex is determined at conception - that is a biological process and not a psychological one.  When a persons psyche does not align with their biology, that is called gender dysphoria.  When a persons psyche is out-of-line with their biology, are you really going to suggest that their chromosomes are the problem and not their psyche?  The question is why is their psyche out-of-line?  No one really knows, but it doesn't appear to be a biologically based disorder.  Until they find a biological component, we can't rule out that it is a psychological disorder.

[The Nehor]

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have serious reservations about the new cultural craze to allow every child who has ever thought they would be happier as the opposite gender and wanted to pursue that to go forth and do so.  

And i really don't like the BSA program that the boys are forced into (though i am currently forcing my 14 year old to work towards his Eagle) and would be gleeful if the church dropped it.  

But, i don't have any problem with transgendered kids in BS troops.  They're just kids.  I don't have to agree with it to be kind and inclusive.

I am also okay with transgendered kids in BS troops. While I disagree with the need for changes in gender to be done I do not believe punishing kids by exclusion helps in any way.

I see scouting as less and less relevant. It made more sense when extracurricular activities were more sparse in previous generations but just do not see the need anymore.

And seconding the ridiculousness of some of the adult scouting meetings. My mother and brother are both involved by callings and they cannot stand round table and wood badge stuff and see it as a waste of time.

Edited January 31, 2017 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

 Do you think before you write or do you only feel before you write?

I like to change it up and make it random.

[hope_for_things]

16 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Unfortunately these kinds of surgeries also have real negative consequences and I find your defense of physicians perfoming elective surgery that tends to increase psychological problems offensive and do not see how it can square with the Hippocratic Oath.

I think your got your analogy to homosexuality wrong. People (some well-meaning and some not) thought the solution to homosexuality was psychological conditioning to 'fix' it running the gamut from therapy all the way to near-torture.

Now the solution to this problem is the radical elective introduction of hormones and invasive surgery? How about infantilism fetishes? Would you be okay with surgery to return then to an infantile state because that is who they are? This is insane. Where does it end? That someone wants something and thinks it will make them happy is not license to throw ethics out the window and give it to them especially when the results of giving it to them has been shown not to be generally positive.

Not sure if you read my response to Calm, but I'm going to have to issue a CFR on your assertion that these surgeries have negative consequences, as well as your assertion that gender dysphoria is a psychological problem.  There is just no scientific basis for these outrageous claims.  And your slippery slope comparison to infantilism just doesn't work.  

[bsjkki]

I think it depends if the church can still refuse transgender youth in their own troops. While I think it is problematic to be intertwined with an organization that sets its own policies and standards that the church does not control nor possibly agree with, I don't expect the church will withdraw if they can still determine who they will admit into church sponsored troops. If the church is required to admit transgender youth to their troops then you have a whole new problem when it comes to Priesthood ordination. Church doctrine and current transgender beliefs to not lend themselves to an easy coexistence. I would like the church to dump scouting. It would solve a lot of issues and save the church a lot of money. 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am also okay with transgendered kids in BS troops. While I disagree with the need for hanged in gender to be done I do not believe punishing kids by exclusion helps in any way.

I see scouting as less and less relevant. It made more sense when extracurricular activities were more sparse in previous generations but just do not see the need anymore.

And seconding the ridiculousness of some of the adult scouting meetings. My mother and brother are both involved by callings and they cannot stand round table and wood badge stuff and see it as a waste of time.

Scouts is the kind of program that only works when the adults are invested and excited, that's why i think it rarely works for LDS troops.  It's a huge time commitment and it's a huge commitment to a program that is outside of and separate from the church and i don't think it's fair to call random people who have no interest in it as leaders.  It's a lose/lose situation for everyone involved (not to say that it can't still work o.k., but it rarely works the way that it's supposed to).

[Jeanne]

Next up...girls..join the GSA...at church sponsored GSA,  Go camping ..learn new things..forget the cookies! 

As far as I am concerned...who ever wants to participate..should be able to. 

[hope_for_things]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

Lets get one thing straight, a person's sex is determined at conception - that is a biological process and not a psychological one.  When a persons psyche does not align with their biology, that is called gender dysphoria.  When a persons psyche is out-of-line with their biology, are you really going to suggest that their chromosomes are the problem and not their psyche?  The question is why is their psyche out-of-line?  No one really knows, but it doesn't appear to be a biologically based disorder.  Until they find a biological component, we can't rule out that it is a psychological disorder.

This is not true, I see no evidence of this in the professional health community.  If you have any substantive proof otherwise, please share, but do not make claims like this without some understanding.  Also, calling something a psychological disorder is much different than saying it has some connection with a person's psyche or in other words, their brain is involved somehow in their gender identity.  Those are two very different assertions.  

[emeliza]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

This isn't true, I have a friend who's child has had surgery and isn't 18 yrs of age.  

I read that girls can have breasts removed as young as 16, but didn't think other surgeries were allowed before 18.  It is a bit unsettling if they are.  Mostly because until around 21-24, you are still maturing.  Transgender itself doesn't bother me at all. 

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Not sure if you read my response to Calm, but I'm going to have to issue a CFR on your assertion that these surgeries have negative consequences, as well as your assertion that gender dysphoria is a psychological problem.  There is just no scientific basis for these outrageous claims.  And your slippery slope comparison to infantilism just doesn't work.  

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

http://www.jahonline.org/pb/assets/raw/Health Advance/journals/jah/feature.pdf

I know you can probably find some website or study supporting your contention which is why I hate the silly CFR rule here when it is applied like this. When it is used to support whether a quote is authentic it makes some sense. In cases like this it tends to turn into a smattering of web links no one is likely to read.

I did not mean to imply that there is a slippery slope. I am pointing out that this is the only psychosexual disorder we are willing to treat like this. What makes this disorder so special that we are willing to flood the person with hormones and perform physical surgery/mutilation on them instead of treating it like other disorders?

[bsjkki]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

Next up...girls..join the GSA...at church sponsored GSA,  Go camping ..learn new things..forget the cookies! 

As far as I am concerned...who ever wants to participate..should be able to. 

I would have no problem with co-ed programs. I wish the girls had more opportunities and a more well rounded program than the current young women's program. The YW program in some ways has too much flexibility for the leaders and girls to do whatever they want. The problem is, in my opinion and based on my experiences, they spend too much time doing crafts and having spa nights. I know the boys get criticized for playing too much basketball but because they have scouting requirements, they also do more and must earn merit badges. This part of scouting I like because they must learn new skills and learn specific things. If you had the boys plan whatever activities they wanted, they would play even more basketball and have video game nights. But, scouting requires a lot of money, training and as bluebell explained, some our leaders don't like to be scout leaders and some of our boys don't want to be scouts. Scouting provides depth and expectations the girls lack but also has negatives. 

[hope_for_things]

8 minutes ago, emeliza said:

I read that girls can have breasts removed as young as 16, but didn't think other surgeries were allowed before 18.  It is a bit unsettling if they are.  Mostly because until around 21-24, you are still maturing.  Transgender itself doesn't bother me at all. 

My guess is that laws vary by state, I just know there isn't a blanket national ban on surgery before 18 yrs old.  

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

This is not true, I see no evidence of this in the professional health community.  If you have any substantive proof otherwise, please share, but do not make claims like this without some understanding.  Also, calling something a psychological disorder is much different than saying it has some connection with a person's psyche or in other words, their brain is involved somehow in their gender identity.  Those are two very different assertions.  

The World Health Organization still classifies it as a mental disorder.

Here.

That could change though.  The definition of something being categorized as a mental disorder is if it causes stress and dysfunction in the person's life.  That's it.  People sometimes think that when something is classified as a psychological disorder it's because there has been brain mapping and scanning and drs. can point to a messed up part of a person's brain (like with a medical disorder) and say 'there it is, the disorder'.  But that's not how it works at all.  It's all decided based on whether or not it causes dysfunction in a person's life.  

Anything that doesn't cause stress and dysfunction in a person's life is considered mentally normal.  

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am pointing out that this is the only psychosexual disorder we are willing to treat like this. What makes this disorder so special that we are willing to flood the person with hormones and perform physical surgery/mutilation on them instead of treating it like other disorders?

I think that it really falls a part when we compare it to how we respond to people who have species dysmorphia (which is a real thing and yes, it's where people sincerely believe they were born the wrong species).  

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think that it really falls a part when we compare it to how we respond to people who have species dysmorphia (which is a real thing and yes, it's where people sincerely believe they were born the wrong species).  

I know a dragon born in the wrong body.

[Rock_N_Roll]

As an Eagle Scout and now working in the Young Men’s (2^nd time), I would love to see the church drop out of the BSA.  The older boys (16 – 18) are expected to finish their Eagle (if they haven’t already), work on Duty to God, and earn Venturing meddles.  This, all while studying for the ACT’s, working part time jobs, trying to graduate from H.S and Seminary, apply for college, go on dates, participate in school athletics and clubs, etc.    AND many are preparing for mission calls they will get, in some cases, before they are even out of H.S. Too much!

 

Drop out of the BSA and create a joint YM/YW program that includes the best of all the programs.  Let the girls earn badges/awards alongside the boys. Have the equivalent of Eagle be attainable to both the boys and the girls, even if it’s reached via slightly different paths.

[hope_for_things]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

http://www.jahonline.org/pb/assets/raw/Health Advance/journals/jah/feature.pdf

I know you can probably find some website or study supporting your contention which is why I hate the silly CFR rule here when it is applied like this. When it is used to support whether a quote is authentic it makes some sense. In cases like this it tends to turn into a smattering of web links no one is likely to read.

I did not mean to imply that there is a slippery slope. I am pointing out that this is the only psychosexual disorder we are willing to treat like this. What makes this disorder so special that we are willing to flood the person with hormones and perform physical surgery/mutilation on them instead of treating it like other disorders?

I appreciate the links provided.  I rarely issue a CFR, and I'll read through those reports a little further.  My initial impression is that both showing a correlation between surgery and poor outcomes.  I don't doubt that this is a possible conclusion.  The second study was comparing their sample with cisgender counterparts, which I find an odd choice to compare and I'm not surprised they found negative results comparing the two populations, is there any question that a cisgendered person on average would have an easier experience than someone with gender dysphoria.  

I couldn't find anything in my skimming through the reports to support your claim that gender dysphoria is considered a psychological disorder, maybe you can point me to where you find evidence of that?  

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

This is not true, I see no evidence of this in the professional health community.  If you have any substantive proof otherwise, please share, but do not make claims like this without some understanding.  Also, calling something a psychological disorder is much different than saying it has some connection with a person's psyche or in other words, their brain is involved somehow in their gender identity.  Those are two very different assertions.  

What exactly is not true about what I said?  I didn't make any assertions.  There is no disagreement that this is a disorder.  The question is whether it is a psychological disorder or a physical (biological) disorder.  Do you have any evidence that this is a physical disorder?  Until you have solid evidence one way or the other, you can't close the door completely on either option.  It doesn't really matter what the DSM says.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I appreciate the links provided.  I rarely issue a CFR, and I'll read through those reports a little further.  My initial impression is that both showing a correlation between surgery and poor outcomes.  I don't doubt that this is a possible conclusion.  The second study was comparing their sample with cisgender counterparts, which I find an odd choice to compare and I'm not surprised they found negative results comparing the two populations, is there any question that a cisgendered person on average would have an easier experience than someone with gender dysphoria.  

I couldn't find anything in my skimming through the reports to support your claim that gender dysphoria is considered a psychological disorder, maybe you can point me to where you find evidence of that?  

I thought it is self-evident by definition. It is a disorder (though many differ on whether treatment should gratify it or not) that needs attention and it causes distress (depression, anxiety, suicide, and other problems).

[hope_for_things]

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The World Health Organization still classifies it as a mental disorder.

Here.

That could change though.  The definition of something being categorized as a mental disorder is if it causes stress and dysfunction in the person's life.  That's it.  People sometimes think that when something is classified as a psychological disorder it's because there has been brain mapping and scanning and drs. can point to a messed up part of a person's brain (like with a medical disorder) and say 'there it is, the disorder'.  But that's not how it works at all.  It's all decided based on whether or not it causes dysfunction in a person's life.  

Anything that doesn't cause stress and dysfunction in a person's life is considered mentally normal.  

This is an important topic, so thanks for adding to the conversation this is new enough territory that I think a lot of organizations are trying to get up to speed.  This is from the American Psychiatric Association:

Quote

DSM-5 aims to avoid stigma and ensure clinical care for individuals who see and feel themselves to be a
different gender than their assigned gender. It replaces the diagnostic name “gender identity disorder”
with “gender dysphoria,” as well as makes other important clarifications in the criteria. It is important
to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria
is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.

https://www.psychiatry.org/File Library/Psychiatrists/Practice/DSM/APA_DSM-5-Gender-Dysphoria.pdf

I think mental health professionals are trying to be careful with the language used because of its impacts on those who identify this way, and our past history as a society with homosexuals and other groups of people that have been labeled using negative terminology.  

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

 

 

Quote

 

ETA- deleted. Realized I completely misunderstood what Pogi had said. Even though he used the right words I interjected my own interpretation which was wrong. Sorry, Pogi.

Edited January 31, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[Calm]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Calm, you must have not read my post carefully. 

Actually I did, thus the second paragraph.

I have not kept up with the latest terminology.  I see they now separate the mismatched  feeling between body and gender (the dysphoria) and the emotional/mental disorders that are associated with it, such as anxiety and depression.

The article did not address whether or not the dysphoria causes the disorders, Do you have info on that?

" The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."

Meaning there is always clinically significant distress present if someone merits this identification?

PS:  Is this a correct assessment of your position?  GD is a biological disorder that has psychological effects?

Edited January 31, 2017 by Calm