Will this be the Breaking Point? BSA to Allow Transgender Boys

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Buckeye said:

Until they called you to the high council. 

I would take high council any day of the week.  The time demand for this calling is enormous.  Between planning and organizing activities every single Wednesday; assisting the boys in their individual advancements in conjunction with their parents; planning and organizing monthly campouts; annual week long scout camps; quarterly court of honor's; monthly roundtables with never ending training; planning and organizing annual fundraisers (we do flags which means that we are up at 5:30 on eight holidays/year, setting up flags and taking them down in the evening; recharters; flag ceremony for ward 4th of July breakfast; friends of scouting campaigns; teaching lessons in young men's; being responsible for the safety and wellbeing of a dozen or so teenage kids with knives, axes, and fire etc.; trying to motivate those same teenagers to clean up after themselves, do dishes, cook meals, pack their bags and tents, stop playing with their phones, etc. etc. etc.  When you only get 2 weeks of vacation/year, it sucks to think that half of my vacation time is donated to my calling with the annual scout camp. 

Not to mention, once you are called, there is no way out unless you move or die. Scout Masters tend to stay in that calling for well over a decade.

Honestly, I really like working with the young men and love the outdoors, I just hate the scouting program.  I have pretty much ditched the program and do my own thing and my bishopric is actually pretty cool with it.  I don't care at all if my boys get their Eagles or work on merit badges.  I am more concerned that my boys are engaged in the world, nature, and have a positive uplifting and spiritual experience at our activities.  I am an advocate for a much simpler program emphasizing those things, that doesn't require such extensive training, with shorter term callings for Scout Masters.  I hope the church makes that change some day.

Edited February 1, 2017 by pogi

[Calm]

3 hours ago, CMZ said:

https://ldsgender.wordpress.com/2017/01/28/important-update-on-another-documented-case-of-approved-lds-sex-change/

And?

 

[CMZ]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

And?

 

It appears that President Kimball allowed a gender transition within the Church.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

And if you are born with both...then what?

If the part offends thee cut it off.

[Bernard Gui]

So, after all the theorizing is over, we come to where the whittling knife meets the wood, the wrap meets the frap, the flint meets the steel, bend meets the bight, the merit meets the badge.

It appears BSA policy is that girls cannot join Scouts, but girls who believe they are boys can. This seems unfair to the girls who believe they are girls. As I said earlier, it would be cheaper and more efficient to simply accept all 58 gender identities and move on.

So, how does the young person with the female body parts fit in when it comes to sharing tents, swimming holes, latrines, shirts and skins games, whizzing contests, rough and tumble personal contact, putting out campfires the slow natural way, and all those other odd (Sister Gui says 'disgusting') things boys do when they are in the woods?

It's expecting a lot of adolescent boys to insist they ignore what they see with their own eyes and instead go with the latest XYZ medical association's determination of who their buddy should be. Those would be interesting late night Scoutmaster Minutes shared around the blazing campfire.

I learned in Woodbadge training it's all done "for the boys." It seems that some of this is not for boys, but for the adults who use the boys for political purposes.

It's a strange world in which we live. After we finish eating away all our foundations, it will be interesting to see what edifice is constructed to replace the one we have demolished.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

4 hours ago, CMZ said:

It appears that President Kimball allowed a gender transition within the Church.

It is possible but given the only names that are identified are dead, it is impossible to check if this actually happened or someone thought it would make a good story.

[Atheist Mormon]

 

 

Will this be the Breaking Point? BSA to Allow Transgender Boys?

 

"LDS Church spokesman Eric Hawkins said in 2015 that the church “has always welcomed all boys to its Scouting units regardless of sexual orientation.” "

Therein lies a positive opportunity for the Church. 

[BlueDreams]

I should also mention that I'm ok with transgender children being apart of BSA. My initial reaction was: okay, good. If they're teens, which most of these would be, the identity is more likely set. I see it as an opportunity for people to learn to accept and handle differences. That's going to be important for anyone, particularly in our world today. Transgender children also are susceptible to several mental challenges such as severe depression and anxiety. If this helps with their personal sense of self and stability and/acceptance, then so be it. I could also care less that it's basically a boys club. I always found it a little stupid considering I knew plenty of girls who would have loved to join in in outdoor activities, including myself.

That said I would also want to ensure the safety of the vulnerable teen. Monitoring for any signs of bullying would be really important. Particularly since these kids will be going on trips together. I would be really concerned for sexual or physical abuse stemming from said bullying by the other children. Transgender youth also have a higher likelihood for these forms of abuse. I think ignoring those possibilities would be endangering the child. This would still need special consideration and care to make sure the child is integrated and safe. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited February 1, 2017 by BlueDreams

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

I should also mention that I'm ok with transgender children being apart of BSA. My initial reaction was: okay, good. If they're teens, which most of these would be, the identity is more likely set. I see it as an opportunity for people to learn to accept and handle differences. That's going to be important for anyone, particularly in our world today. Transgender children also are susceptible to several mental challenges such as severe depression and anxiety. If this helps with their personal sense of self and stability and/acceptance, then so be it. I could also care less that it's basically a boys club. I always found it a little stupid considering I knew plenty of girls who would have loved to join in in outdoor activities, including myself.

That said I would also want to ensure the safety of the vulnerable teen. Monitoring for any signs of bullying would be really important. Particularly since these kids will be going on trips together. I would be really concerned for sexual or physical abuse stemming from said bullying by the other children. Transgender youth also have a higher likelihood for these forms of abuse. I think ignoring those possibilities would be endangering the child. This would still need special consideration and care to make sure the child is integrated and safe. 

 

With luv,

BD

On the practical level, how would this work? Constant surveillance would require more adult leaders and would radically change the nature and purpose of Scouting. Do you believe boys (8-17) are capable of this level of maturity?

[CMZ]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

It is possible but given the only names that are identified are dead, it is impossible to check if this actually happened or someone thought it would make a good story.

Sometimes some information is better than nothing.

[BlueDreams]

34 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

On the practical level, how would this work? Constant surveillance would require more adult leaders and would radically change the nature and purpose of Scouting. Do you believe boys (8-17) are capable of this level of maturity?

Yes. I do. Maturity is more based on how we teach our youth, not on some innate capacity. I don't know if there would need to be a ton more workers. Just ways to teach about spotting bullying and talking to the kids about the same. Honestly, even with kids who aren't transgender, this would be a good lesson to be had throughout the years. 

With luv,

BD

[CV75]

17 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

So, after all the theorizing is over, we come to where the whittling knife meets the wood, the wrap meets the frap, the flint meets the steel, bend meets the bight, the merit meets the badge.

It appears BSA policy is that girls cannot join Scouts, but girls who believe they are boys can. This seems unfair to the girls who believe they are girls. As I said earlier, it would be cheaper and more efficient to simply accept all 58 gender identities and move on.

So, how does the young person with the female body parts fit in when it comes to sharing tents, swimming holes, latrines, shirts and skins games, whizzing contests, rough and tumble personal contact, putting out campfires the slow natural way, and all those other odd (Sister Gui says 'disgusting') things boys do when they are in the woods?

It's expecting a lot of adolescent boys to insist they ignore what they see with their own eyes and instead go with the latest XYZ medical association's determination of who their buddy should be. Those would be interesting late night Scoutmaster Minutes shared around the blazing campfire.

I learned in Woodbadge training it's all done "for the boys." It seems that some of this is not for boys, but for the adults who use the boys for political purposes.

It's a strange world in which we live. After we finish eating away all our foundations, it will be interesting to see what edifice is constructed to replace the one we have demolished.

I think the only change is that instead of a birth certificate, parental attestation on the application determines that the child is a boy, regardless of outward appearances. For BSA programming purposes, if someone that looks like a girl (and there are plenty of boys that look like girls--ever been swimming at scout camp?) says he is a boy, he is a boy. The policies on teasing, bullying, "experimenting" and other youth protection measures are sufficient to protect the scouts if applied properly. And of course practical expectations and integration into community mores need to be wisely taken into consideration, and the parents bear the greater responsibility for that since the BSA and the Church are only resources to them.

The bishop might have to do some soul-searching for giving him the priesthood and temple ordinances, but he has the keys (and those above him) for doing that.

[carbon dioxide]

On 1/31/2017 at 2:27 PM, bsjkki said:

Do you mean gender or biological sex? 

I don't see a difference. 

[carbon dioxide]

On 1/31/2017 at 3:25 PM, pogi said:

Well, I do have quite a bit of background in biology and the medical sciences. Last I checked the sex chromosomes are determined at conception, and in mammals primary sex determination is "strictly chromosomal".  Any secondary phenotypic sex characteristics are hormonal.  Both primary and secondary sex determinism are biological and not psychologically based at all.  Are we really going to argue this point? 

Again, show me any evidence at all that sex dysphoria is a biological disorder.  If it doesn't exist, then we simply can't rule out the possibility that it is a psychological disorder.  To refute this point is blatant disregard of the evidence (or lack thereof).  I am not stating that there is no biological component, but if there is, we haven't discovered it yet.  That is all I am saying.  I find it amusing that people get all up in arms and offended, calling other people "ignorant" etc., when in fact the science is not conclusive one way or the other.  There are too many unknowns.

This is true.  We can know the gender of a baby before it is born by ultrasound.  If a pregnant woman asks her doctor "What is the gender of my child?"  No doctor responds "Well we don't now for certain. We will have to wait 5 or 10 years after birth and then ask the kid what they are."  There are clear brain disorder that exists.  There is a lot about the brain we don't know but just because a person things they are something does not mean they are that something.  I have sympathy for those that are experiencing these issues and if they want to claim they are the opposite gender I have no problem with that.  But I also have my rights and I have a right not to play along.  I can decide for myself what gender a person is.   Bruce Jenner will always be Bruce Jenner and he will always be a man regardless of what actions he has taken or will take for the rest of his life.  There are some things a person can not change or wish away. A person's thoughts do not change their reality.  I might self identify myself as a 7 foot tall basketball player and really believe it but regardless of what I think, I am what I am and I am sure not 7 feet tall.

Edited February 1, 2017 by carbon dioxide

[Calm]

5 hours ago, CMZ said:

Sometimes some information is better than nothing.

Not if it is false information, imo.

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

This is true.  We can know the gender of a baby before it is born by ultrasound.  If a pregnant woman asks her doctor "What is the gender of my child?"  No doctor responds "Well we don't now for certain. We will have to wait 5 or 10 years after birth and then ask the kid what they are."  There are clear brain disorder that exists.  There is a lot about the brain we don't know but just because a person things they are something does not mean they are that something.  I have sympathy for those that are experiencing these issues and if they want to claim they are the opposite gender I have no problem with that.  But I also have my rights and I have a right not to play along.  I can decide for myself what gender a person is.   Bruce Jenner will always be Bruce Jenner and he will always be a man regardless of what actions he has taken or will take for the rest of his life.  There are some things a person can not change or wish away. A person's thoughts do not change their reality.  I might self identify myself as a 7 foot tall basketball player and really believe it but regardless of what I think, I am what I am and I am sure not 7 feet tall.

While ultrasound is generally reliable, it is not the most reliable method as it is based entirely on phenotype.  Genotype is a much more accurate depiction of a persons sex, as primary sex determination is strictly chromosomal.  But even then, it can get messy with rare chromosomal disorders XYY, XXY, etc.  As has been noted in another thread, XY babies can have rare hormonal disorder which gives them female characteristics.  Based on appearances alone (ultrasound), you would judge that person to be a female, but genetically speaking, that person is a male who has a hormonal disorder and is born with a vagina.  Is it better to treat that person who looks and feels like a female as a male, or is it better to let them live their life as a female?  In that case, I think the decision needs to be left to the person with the disorder as it is clearly a biological disorder which has effected self-identity.  We need to let them identify as whatever sex they want, and we need to respect that until a cure can be found.   Sex disphoria on the other hand is a completely different issue altogether where there are no clear biological associations with the disorder.  In such cases, compassion is of upmost importance.  I don't really have any good answers beyond that as there is no biological cure or effective psychological treatment that we know of which will reverse the disorder.  We have to understand, these people do not wish this on themselves.

[carbon dioxide]

50 minutes ago, pogi said:

While ultrasound is generally reliable, it is not the most reliable method as it is based entirely on phenotype.  Genotype is a much more accurate depiction of a persons sex, as primary sex determination is strictly chromosomal.  But even then, it can get messy with rare chromosomal disorders XYY, XXY, etc.  As has been noted in another thread, XY babies can have rare hormonal disorder which gives them female characteristics.  Based on appearances alone (ultrasound), you would judge that person to be a female, but genetically speaking, that person is a male who has a hormonal disorder and is born with a vagina.  Is it better to treat that person who looks and feels like a female as a male, or is it better to let them live their life as a female?  In that case, I think the decision needs to be left to the person with the disorder as it is clearly a biological disorder which has effected self-identity.  We need to let them identify as whatever sex they want, and we need to respect that until a cure can be found.   Sex disphoria on the other hand is a completely different issue altogether where there are no clear biological associations with the disorder.  In such cases, compassion is of upmost importance.  I don't really have any good answers beyond that as there is no biological cure or effective psychological treatment that we know of which will reverse the disorder.  We have to understand, these people do not wish this on themselves.

Rare genetic conditions do exist but there is no reason to believe they exist in most transgender cases.  Compassion is usually warranted but this should not mean that it should be forced on others either.  Though Bruce Jenner may identify himself as a woman and thus consider himself as one (which is his right) that does not mean that I must consider him as such.  There are many that want to impose this view on everyone else.  We must comply with their identity and accept.  That needs to be rejected.  I am not going to have other people decide for me what constitutes a boy or a girl.  I have a working definition of what a boy and girl is. It has worked well for me all the years I have lived on this planet and will continue to work just fine for my remaining years.

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think the only change is that instead of a birth certificate, parental attestation on the application determines that the child is a boy, regardless of outward appearances. For BSA programming purposes, if someone that looks like a girl (and there are plenty of boys that look like girls--ever been swimming at scout camp?) says he is a boy, he is a boy. The policies on teasing, bullying, "experimenting" and other youth protection measures are sufficient to protect the scouts if applied properly. And of course practical expectations and integration into community mores need to be wisely taken into consideration, and the parents bear the greater responsibility for that since the BSA and the Church are only resources to them.

The bishop might have to do some soul-searching for giving him the priesthood and temple ordinances, but he has the keys (and those above him) for doing that.

That's a heavy expectation for adolescent boys and leaders. Looks to me like a recipe for for disaster. We shall see.

14 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Yes. I do. Maturity is more based on how we teach our youth, not on some innate capacity. I don't know if there would need to be a ton more workers. Just ways to teach about spotting bullying and talking to the kids about the same. Honestly, even with kids who aren't transgender, this would be a good lesson to be had throughout the years. 

With luv,

BD

You have far more confidence than I. How would you arrange latrines, swimming, and tent partners? Would the trans girl be required to wear a boy or girl swimsuit?

[Calm]

There is plenty of clothing that can work for both, even in swim suits.  The trans boy can wear a loose short and a short sleeve swim tee.  Better for avoiding skin cancer.

What do boys need to do when they poop?  I assume the same girls do all the time. 

Tent partners would need some discussion to ensure comfort and security.

[stemelbow]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

There is plenty of clothing that can work for both, even in swim suits.  The trans boy can wear a loose short and a short sleeve swim tee.  Better for avoiding skin cancer.

What do boys need to do when they poop?  I assume the same girls do all the time. 

Tent partners would need some discussion to ensure comfort and security.

I can see how it would work, sure.

This seems like a step for making scouts for boys and girls.  Which seems like a good thing to me.  In my experience too many boys have no interest whatsoever in scouts for the Church to make it a boys program, as if all boys must conform.  Also, there are plenty of girls who I'd imagine would be interested in boy scouts.  At that point, though, the Church might get fed up and toss the program. 

[gopher]

I don't see this being the breaking point for the Church.  I think that may come when BSA admits atheists AND removes any mention of God in their handbooks, literature, and scout oath.

 

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

That's a heavy expectation for adolescent boys and leaders. Looks to me like a recipe for for disaster. We shall see.

You have far more confidence than I. How would you arrange latrines, swimming, and tent partners? Would the trans girl be required to wear a boy or girl swimsuit?

Yes, I agree it is a heavy expectation considering what we are used to, and change is difficult anyway. Some can make this as simple as, "Billy doesn't look like a boy but his parents say he is, so don't stare or tease," and some can't. Some choose to identify their child as a transgender boy than as simply a boy. On one hand this sets him apart and warns others not to mess with him (or more politic, inspires their validation), and on the other it draws attention from and invalidates the norm.

Fortunately, LDS parents, families and troops have the advantage of a Zion doctrine with inspired leaders and council process when needed to address individual concerns. I think the parents have most of the responsibility in teaching their child how to behave in situations that might cause him or those around him stress, whether he is the exception or more in line with the norm. I think the most practical solutions would be individualized according to the body habitus and personality of the boy in question.

I think that National BSA policies on privacy and modesty would still allow for local administration in accordance with the norms of the faith-based sponsors.

I think if there was no Boy Scout organization, the Young Men Program would still include a significant activity module for their quorums. The key organization is the quorum. If a parent says their transgender child is a boy, I think the bishop would by and large have to acknowledge that, and as I mentioned before, may have to do some soul-searching or consultation with his leadership chain as to what to do about that boy's quorum participation.

But as I said before, these issues are not new and priesthood leaders have dealt with them from the days of yore, albeit perhaps less publicly. I think the sexualization of children in the mass media, the politicization of sexuality (or maybe it's the sexualization of politics), and "it's all about me-me-me" have undermined the potential benefits of making personal issues more open to discussion.

[CV75]

20 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I can see how it would work, sure.

This seems like a step for making scouts for boys and girls.  Which seems like a good thing to me.  In my experience too many boys have no interest whatsoever in scouts for the Church to make it a boys program, as if all boys must conform.  Also, there are plenty of girls who I'd imagine would be interested in boy scouts.  At that point, though, the Church might get fed up and toss the program. 

I think viewing the BSA as  program unto itself is a problem. It is borrowed, or adopted into the Church priesthood organization for the purpose of proving a character-building and gender-affirming/validating activity module for the Aaronic Priesthood quorums. If there were a corresponding program for girls, I'm sure we'd use it for the Young Women's class organization to build their character and affirm/validate their gender. Should BSA policies require churches to give up their doctrinal values, that's where i see a reason to not use it. But the controversial policy changes in recent years have not infringed on or compromised LDS doctrine as far as I can tell.

[rockpond]

17 minutes ago, gopher said:

I don't see this being the breaking point for the Church.  I think that may come when BSA admits atheists AND removes any mention of God in their handbooks, literature, and scout oath.

 

I don't think that would do it either.  We don't rely on the scouting program to teach the boys about God.  I think as long as the BSA continues to respect our sovereignty in choosing our leaders and aligning troops with wards, we'll stay in. 

Not sure if this has been posted yet.  Here is yesterday's response from the church:

"The Church is studying the announcement made yesterday by Boy Scouts of America. Boy Scouts has assured its religious chartering organizations that, as in the past, they will be able to organize their troops in a way fully consistent with their religious beliefs. In recent years the Church has made several changes to its programs for youth, and continues to look for ways to better serve its families and young people worldwide."

I think the church is always looking for ways to improve its youth programs.  I also think they put that in these statements as a reminder to the BSA that we *can* leave them. 

[canard78]

On 1/31/2017 at 0:13 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

Except when one of your parents has left your other parent and has married his or her same-sex partner, and you, too, live in that household.  Then, by God, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints had better allow you to be baptized the nanosecond you turn eight.  Otherwise, it is denying baptism to children!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

It's either old enough or it's not. The fact that the church changed their policy in response to an american law change says as much about the americo-centrism of the church leaders as it does about their attitudes to homosexuals.