The Nehor Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said: You've asserted twice now (5 times if we count the duplicate post ) that these transgender kids are having sxual reassignment surgery to match the gender with which they claim. I don't think this is the case at all. Most (if not all) transgender children simply dress differently, get different hair dos, and maybe go by a different name until they are old enough to make a decision for reassignment surgery. I'd be really interested if there is any evidence that transgender children are having reassignment surgeries. ETA- I found this article that says these reassignment surgeries are on the rise but it's still a small minority.http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sex-change-treatment-for-kids-on-the-rise/ While the physical knife surgeries have to wait until 18 the hormones and blockers that impede normal sexual development can be done to minors. This is what annoys me. Edit: Should have been clearer that I was not just referring to the adult surgeries. Edited January 31, 2017 by The Nehor 1
Meadowchik Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, The Nehor said: I hope this is the end. A break seems inevitable so it might as well be now. Gender identity change confuses me. We have children who we give few legal rights because they are young and unstable but somehow we accept that they are of sound mind to make an irrevocable surgical changes and make decisions that will have ramifications throughout their life? Be grateful if you or yours don't have to struggle with gender dysphoria. It can be a terribly agonising thing to be convinced that your body is the wrong gender. By the way, many of these children and up taking medications to delay puberty so that permanent surgical changes--if any--can be put off until they're older and more prepared. Edited January 31, 2017 by Meadowchik
The Nehor Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Be grateful if you or yours don't have to struggle with gender dysphoria. It can be a terribly agonising thing to be convinced that your body is the wrong gender. By the way, many of these children and up taking medications to delay puberty so that permanent surgical changes--if any--can be put off until they're older and more prepared. Gender dysphoria is a psychological problem and should be treated as such. Results show that those that get the surgery are only rarely mentally better off afterwards. 4
bluebell Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 56 minutes ago, CA Steve said: It makes a lot more sense if the birthing nurse looked at the car and it had both a Toyota and Honda symbol on it. http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency The discussion isn't about inter-sexed babies. It's about transgenderism. 2
Popular Post rongo Posted January 31, 2017 Popular Post Posted January 31, 2017 I don't think the break with BSA will happen until there is substantial pressure on the Church to do things against its doctrine and policies. That isn't the case right now. Despite things in BSA that run counter (gay Scout leaders, etc.), they don't affect LDS troops because LDS troops can choose to have leaders that align with their values. I think this falls under Elder Oaks' statement in Phoenix two weeks ago at the religious freedom conference that "some people are in a lather about things that just aren't going to happen." While I would love severing all involvement with Scouting, I don't think it will be because of this or similar issues. I think it will be because the Church wants to get more bang for its buck out of its young men's program, and Scouting doesn't do it (or doesn't do it nearly as well as it used to). Funny story: the people in our stake who "bleed green" (rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth Scouters) hounded our former stake president for ten years about forcing everyone to go to Roundtable, Woodbadge (they demanded all bishoprics and a quota of 30 people per ward), etc. He successfully fended them off, which took some doing because one of his counselors was one of them. They smelled fresh meat when we got a new stake presidency in December, and to nip it in the bud, he went to Woodbadge, and then told them that it isn't necessary requirement, and to get off people's backs about Roundtable (he was a Scoutmaster for three years, but refused to go to Roundtable after going to one. This was my experience as well). They are furious because the stake president isn't a true believer! I think the off-putting nature of the people who "bleed green" is the single biggest thing that turns off people who would otherwise not want the Church to get out of Scouting. I think this is a bigger factor than the culture wars vis a vis Scouting. 7
ERayR Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, rongo said: I don't think the break with BSA will happen until there is substantial pressure on the Church to do things against its doctrine and policies. That isn't the case right now. Despite things in BSA that run counter (gay Scout leaders, etc.), they don't affect LDS troops because LDS troops can choose to have leaders that align with their values. I think this falls under Elder Oaks' statement in Phoenix two weeks ago at the religious freedom conference that "some people are in a lather about things that just aren't going to happen." While I would love severing all involvement with Scouting, I don't think it will be because of this or similar issues. I think it will be because the Church wants to get more bang for its buck out of its young men's program, and Scouting doesn't do it (or doesn't do it nearly as well as it used to). Funny story: the people in our stake who "bleed green" (rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth Scouters) hounded our former stake president for ten years about forcing everyone to go to Roundtable, Woodbadge (they demanded all bishoprics and a quota of 30 people per ward), etc. He successfully fended them off, which took some doing because one of his counselors was one of them. They smelled fresh meat when we got a new stake presidency in December, and to nip it in the bud, he went to Woodbadge, and then told them that it isn't necessary requirement, and to get off people's backs about Roundtable (he was a Scoutmaster for three years, but refused to go to Roundtable after going to one. This was my experience as well). They are furious because the stake president isn't a true believer! I think the off-putting nature of the people who "bleed green" is the single biggest thing that turns off people who would otherwise not want the Church to get out of Scouting. I think this is a bigger factor than the culture wars vis a vis Scouting. Oh are you saying the road to the Celestial Kingdom doesn't run thru the Boy Scout program? Cursed apostate. Edited January 31, 2017 by ERayR spelling 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 6 minutes ago, rongo said: I don't think the break with BSA will happen until there is substantial pressure on the Church to do things against its doctrine and policies. That isn't the case right now. Despite things in BSA that run counter (gay Scout leaders, etc.), they don't affect LDS troops because LDS troops can choose to have leaders that align with their values. I think this falls under Elder Oaks' statement in Phoenix two weeks ago at the religious freedom conference that "some people are in a lather about things that just aren't going to happen." I agree with rongo in that the precedent has been set with the recent compromise between the church and BSA. Such things as the topic of this thread need not affect the Church's relationship with BSA unless and until BSA gets coercive about having all of its chartering organizations implement each and every policy and policy change. Of course, given the intensity of the gay rights juggernaut, that may well happen -- in which case, that would spell the end of Scouting in the Church. And perhaps Scouting itself, as I don't know if BSA could survive without the substantial support the Church provides. 1
Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted January 31, 2017 Popular Post Posted January 31, 2017 10 minutes ago, rongo said: I think the off-putting nature of the people who "bleed green" is the single biggest thing that turns off people who would otherwise not want the Church to get out of Scouting. I think this is a bigger factor than the culture wars vis a vis Scouting. Maybe the next biggest thing is heavy-handedness in "Friends of Scouting" drives -- which correlates to some degree with the "bleed-green" mentality. 5
hope_for_things Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 15 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: It was just announced that BSA will begin accepting scouts based on the applicants gender identity. While I personally support this move Im thinking that this may be the point of no return for the Boy Scouts of America ... a point even the LDS church can't accept. It's only speculation, but not only won't the church accept this it may be the breaking point for their 100 year relationship http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/us/boy-scouts-reversing-century-old-stance-will-allow-transgender-boys.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share NYTimes: Boy Scouts, Reversing Century-Old Stance, Will Allow Transgender Boys I really applaud this change by BSA, they are showing positive leadership on an important issue that few people understand or have tried to be empathetic about. I hope that the church stays involved with BSA for this very reason alone. By association with a group that is clearly making progress on an important issue like gender identity and trying to show inclusiveness and acceptance, the church will only benefit by this association. 2
rongo Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 1 minute ago, hope_for_things said: I really applaud this change by BSA, they are showing positive leadership on an important issue that few people understand or have tried to be empathetic about. I hope that the church stays involved with BSA for this very reason alone. By association with a group that is clearly making progress on an important issue like gender identity and trying to show inclusiveness and acceptance, the church will only benefit by this association. I have to smile at the underlined part. As long as its politics are aligned with political correctness and progressiveism, it doesn't matter how poorly it serves our young men, we should stay with it to show solidarity and support for the cause. 4
hope_for_things Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: You've asserted twice now (5 times if we count the duplicate post ) that these transgender kids are having sxual reassignment surgery to match the gender with which they claim. I don't think this is the case at all. Most (if not all) transgender children simply dress differently, get different hair dos, and maybe go by a different name until they are old enough to make a decision for reassignment surgery. I'd be really interested if there is any evidence that transgender children are having reassignment surgeries. ETA- I found this article that says these reassignment surgeries are on the rise but it's still a small minority.http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sex-change-treatment-for-kids-on-the-rise/ This is a good point, the assumption that every person decides to have surgery is wrong. Also, gender fluidity is an identity as well where a person may identify more strongly as male or female on different days or in response to different environments. There is a spectrum with gender identity, just like there is a spectrum with sexual attraction. Society is beginning to better understand is that this isn't a binary black and white issue. Just like everything else in life there are many shades of different colors along a spectrum of gender identity and sexual attraction.
hope_for_things Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 2 hours ago, emeliza said: In the US surgeries are not done until adulthood. You have to be 18. This isn't true, I have a friend who's child has had surgery and isn't 18 yrs of age.
hope_for_things Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Gender dysphoria is a psychological problem and should be treated as such. Results show that those that get the surgery are only rarely mentally better off afterwards. Wrong, you're showing your ignorance on this issue, and I find it offensive. Please don't pretend to be an expert on what is or isn't a psychological problem. You're perpetuating a stereotype here, just like people used to believe homosexuality is a psychological problem, this kind of an attitude has real negative consequences.
Atheist Mormon Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 13 hours ago, The Nehor said: I felt so strongly about this I felt the need to say it four times...either that or I kept getting error messages that the site was down. Do you think before you write or do you only feel before you write?
hope_for_things Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 9 minutes ago, rongo said: I have to smile at the underlined part. As long as its politics are aligned with political correctness and progressiveism, it doesn't matter how poorly it serves our young men, we should stay with it to show solidarity and support for the cause. The BSA is taking a leadership position on an important issue for society. This is a core Christian issue. Inclusiveness, acceptance, tolerance, love towards all, this is core to gospel. How people justify exclusion and judgement of others as gospel principles is astounding to me. 3
Atheist Mormon Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 35 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: The BSA is taking a leadership position on an important issue for society. This is a core Christian issue. Inclusiveness, acceptance, tolerance, love towards all, this is core to gospel. How people justify exclusion and judgement of others as gospel principles is astounding to me. Are you serious?
Kenngo1969 Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 4 hours ago, Buckeye said: I don't think that those opposed to the church policy forbidding baptism to the children of SS couples are driven by a desire for 8 year olds to be baptized so much as they are driven by a desire that all children are treated equally and included. You (or they) may disagree with the policy, with its underlying intent, and/or with how well the policy accomplishes that underlying intent. That said, while it's important to treat children equally and inclusively, it's also important to not put children in the awkward situation in which they must make critical choices and covenants while receiving directly contradicting signals about the acceptability of gay marriage and gay physical intimacy before God according to the teachings of His Church at church and at home, respectively. In that exceedingly rare situation ("Yes, we're gay, and yes, we know what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches about chastity and marriage, but it's our fondest desire for our [actually his or her, biologically speaking] children to be baptized in to the Church of Jesus Christ"), leaders of the Church have determined that the fairest and best course of action for the children and for the parents, is to avoid sowing confusion, and to allow offspring to make a decision about joining the Church when they are older, more mature, and better equipped emotionally and intellectually to do so. In any event, I'm not sure I agree with your premise that baptism is a sin qua non for "treat[ing] children equally and includ[ing]" them. And I have yet to become aware of even a single case of a child being reared in a gay household whose parent (biologically speaking) wishes that child to be baptized in to the Church of Jesus Christ, notwithstanding the parent's de facto opposition to the Church's teachings on chastity and marriage. 2
Kenngo1969 Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: Wrong, you're showing your ignorance on this issue, and I find it offensive. Please don't pretend to be an expert on what is or isn't a psychological problem. You're perpetuating a stereotype here, just like people used to believe homosexuality is a psychological problem, this kind of an attitude has real negative consequences. Your umbrage is noted. Whatever the genesis of the problem, surgery that cannot be reversed is an exceedingly drastic potential "solution" to it. 2
Calm Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: Wrong.... CFR on the results significant positive changes for surgery for gender dysphoria. Things must have changed since last I looked into it, which was sometime ago. Perhaps we are defining dysphoria differently. It is psychological distress, is it not? Perhaps you are also including potential causes...which may or may not include biological issues. My brain isn't fully awake yet. Need to rethink this probably.
Calm Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 4 hours ago, Buckeye said: I don't think that those opposed to the church policy forbidding baptism to the children of SS couples are driven by a desire for 8 year olds to be baptized so much as they are driven by a desire that all children are treated equally and included. Which is an honorable goal, but not always a wise one as children have different needs and need different treatment in order to flourish. 3
Buckeye Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 1 minute ago, Calm said: Which is an honorable goal, but not always a wise one as children have different needs and need different treatment in order to flourish. Sure, but that's not the point. I wasn't looking to open debate about the church's SS family - child baptism policy. I was just pointing out that Kenngo's claimed hypocrisy is meritless.
hope_for_things Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 46 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Are you serious? 100% completely serious! 1
hope_for_things Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 17 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Your umbrage is noted. Whatever the genesis of the problem, surgery that cannot be reversed is an exceedingly drastic potential "solution" to it. Any surgery has potential complications and all surgery should be taken seriously.
hope_for_things Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 12 minutes ago, Calm said: CFR on the results significant positive changes for surgery for gender dysphoria. Things must have changed since last I looked into it, which was sometime ago. Perhaps we are defining dysphoria differently. It is psychological distress, is it not? Perhaps you are also including potential causes...which may or may not include biological issues. My brain isn't fully awake yet. Need to rethink this probably. Calm, you must have not read my post carefully. Lets review: The Nehor said: Quote Gender dysphoria is a psychological problem and should be treated as such. Results show that those that get the surgery are only rarely mentally better off afterwards. I said: Quote Wrong, you're showing your ignorance on this issue, and I find it offensive. Please don't pretend to be an expert on what is or isn't a psychological problem. You're perpetuating a stereotype here, just like people used to believe homosexuality is a psychological problem, this kind of an attitude has real negative consequences. I didn't comment about whether the surgery results are more positive or negative, I have no idea. Maybe we should CFR to The Nehor about his claim that people who have the surgery are only rarely mentally better off afterwards, to see if that's backed by any scientific studies to support such a claim. I specifically critiqued The Nehor for his labeling Gender dysphoria as a psychological problem, and compared it to earlier generations labeling homosexuality as a psychological problem. This is wrong, I'm not aware of anyone in the modern psychiatric community that would label Gender dysphoria as a psychological problem, and I find that labeling akin to other labeling irresponsible and hurtful. The WebMD site says this: Quote But the mismatch between body and internal sense of gender is not a mental illness. http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/gender-dysphoria#1 Lets not label things as psychological problems due to ignorance about a subject.
bluebell Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 I have serious reservations about the new cultural craze to allow every child who has ever thought they would be happier as the opposite gender and wanted to pursue that to go forth and do so. And i really don't like the BSA program that the boys are forced into (though i am currently forcing my 14 year old to work towards his Eagle) and would be gleeful if the church dropped it. But, i don't have any problem with transgendered kids in BS troops. They're just kids. I don't have to agree with it to be kind and inclusive. 3
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