Girls raised in the Church

[Meadowchik]

On the one hand, males and females are equally responsible for their own virtue. On the other, females naturally suffer more when it is lost, generally speaking.

I also think there is something to be said of socio-economic status here. I would speculate that poorer females and those with less social support suffer even more from loss of virtue. And those LDS females in poorer communities and countries are even more vulnerable.

Can anyone see the vital concern it is for females in MOST of the world to be able to maintain control over their own bodies, and how remaining chaste is a desperate need for poorer females?

So I don't want to perpetuate damaging taboos, but it's also seems unconscionable to deliberately downplay the importance of virtue and chastity, especially it's even more personal importance to females.

(It's like the phrase my mother used when warning about the dismissal of defensive driving, about Sam being right but still dead.)

[Calm]

I think there are many things that need to be taught because we are living in a fallen world among fallen people who at times judge poorly and make huge mistakes or even worse intentionally set out to harm others.  It can be very hard to teach wisdom in dealing with one's culture as well as protecting oneself as much as possible from harm whatever the source without conveying the message we are responsible for the condemnation culture puts on us or for the pain we go through when victims.  That is, imo, one reason we must work so hard and not be dismissive about the need to remove false doctrine.  There is stuff we have to teach that too easily is translated to unnecessary guilt.  If we add stuff that we don't need to teach or even shouldn't be teaching to the mix, it just makes the chance of misinterpretation of gospel teachings into a burden rather than a refuge that much more likely.

[bcuzbcuz]

19 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

On the one hand, males and females are equally responsible for their own virtue. On the other, females naturally suffer more when it is lost, generally speaking.

I also think there is something to be said of socio-economic status here. I would speculate that poorer females and those with less social support suffer even more from loss of virtue. And those LDS females in poorer communities and countries are even more vulnerable.

Can anyone see the vital concern it is for females in MOST of the world to be able to maintain control over their own bodies, and how remaining chaste is a desperate need for poorer females?

So I don't want to perpetuate damaging taboos, but it's also seems unconscionable to deliberately downplay the importance of virtue and chastity, especially it's even more personal importance to females.

(It's like the phrase my mother used when warning about the dismissal of defensive driving, about Sam being right but still dead.)

I'm one of those who would deliberately downplay the importance of chastity (virtue has value, as long as we move away from simply linking virtue to a sexually chaste behaviour).

Someone else here posted about the importance of family. That I accept. I lost my wife when she was 45. I lost a son when he was 33. I lost my virginity when I was 23. 

The pain of losing two family members does not go away. It's been more than 20 years since my wife died and it's 10 years since my son died. Those are not just scars. They are open wounds. They are rips in the very fabric of ones being. Time does not cure these sores. The mere remembering of moments, words, actions, humour, caresses, bring tears to my eyes and hurt to my heart.

Virginity? Nah, not so much.

Edited September 7, 2016 by bcuzbcuz
Grammar

[Bobbieaware]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

And that response completely ignores all the references church leaders are teaching about testimony as our most precious possession, our family as our most precious possessions, the gospel as our most precious possession (seriously, this last one wins for me, we can be as sexually pure as a new born babe and it would be of no spiritual, eternal value without the gospel).  Not saying chastity isn't one of the highest blessings we can choose, just saying not all or even most church leaders are teaching it is our most precious possession and so perhaps we should start looking at chastity as part of our most dear and precious possession, the gospel, rather than something that stands by itself at the pinnacle of our existense.

I thought our responses were being given from the perspective of people WHO ALREADY KNOW the Restored Gospel is true (considering the subject of this thread, I thought a preexisting belief in God and a testimony of the Restored Gospel was a given), And in consideration of the fact that in Mormonism exaltation is a family affair (men and women married for all eternity, wholly committed to the continuation of marriage and family life in eternity), it becomes obvious that of all the sins to guard against, the taking of innocent human life and the selfish misuse the sacred power to bring forth human life stand at the top of the list. This is why murder and the misuse of the power of procreation are the two most serious sins in the eyes of God, the lone exception being the unpardonable sin of the sons of perdition. which sin is also a form of murder (I.e. ascent to the murder of God and Jesus Christ).

Therefore. if murder and sexual sin stand as the most serious of transgressions against God's law, it stands to reason that when one avoids their violation the greatest of blessings will flow. For these reasons, if a believing Latter-day Saimt does not commit murder but does the opposite and opts to protect, nurture and cherish life it will be well for him or her on the last day.. Similarly, if a Latter-day Saint does not misuse the sacred power of procreation so that they can gain a temple recommend-- or not lose one -- then the greatest of eternal blessing are obtainable -- which in the LDS religion is eternal marriage and eternal family; or, in the words found in D&C 132, eternal lives.

Finally, the reason why the sin of the sons of perdition is unpardonable is because they, above all other things, fervently desire to destroy God (murder him) and usurp his throne. Therefore the three most serious sins -- the unpardonable sin, the shedding of innocent blood and the misuse of the sacred power of procreation all involve transgressions against human life. But in glorious and direct opposition to these three most serious sins stand the greatest of all the acts of faith: 1) loving God with all one's heart mind and strength 2) living lives of loving sacrificial service to our fellow man 3) obeying God"s very first commandment to man -- to marry and multiply in the way and within the bounds the Lord has set, with the end-goal being the making of. that marriage and family the crowning eternal possessions.

But it deference to your comments, it almost goes without saying that none of these supreme blessings would be obtainable without one first having an unconquerable testimony of God, Christ and the Gospel. So you'll have to forgive me if I took a fervent testimony of the LDS religion as an indispensable starting point and a given in this discussion.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

I thought our responses were being given from the perspective of people WHO ALREADY KNOW the Restored Gospel is true (considering the subject of this thread, I thought a preexisting belief in God and a testimony of the Restored Gospel was a given)...

But it deference to your comments, it almost goes without saying that none of these supreme blessings would be obtainable without one first having an unconquerable testimony of God, Christ and the Gospel. So you'll have to forgive me if I took a fervent testimony of the LDS religion as an indispensable starting point and a given in this discussion.

And yet we have all these church leaders thinking it is greater wisdom to teach members their most precious possession is their testimony, their family or the gospel than to say it about chasity (60ish hits about personal experiences and such vs. 4 repetitions of the same comment).

So are you saying chastity and virtue are our most precious possessions except for testimony, family and the gospel?

Edited September 7, 2016 by Calm

[Bobbieaware]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

And yet we have all these church leaders thinking it is greater wisdom to teach members their most precious possession is their testimony, their family or the gospel than to say it about chasity (60ish hits about personal experiences and such vs. 4 repetitions of the same comment).

So are you saying chastity and virtue are our most precious possessions except for testimony, family and the gospel?

The greatest of all the gifts of God is exaltation in the kingdom of God. Exaltation (eternal marriage and eternal offspring in the heavenly state) is impossible to obtain without chastity and virtue, which are the most critically important of all the expressions of faith in God. I say chastity and virtue are the most critically important expressions of faith in God because the misuse of the power of procreation is the most widespread, the mosti alluring, the most powerfully tempting, the most intensely pleasurable (in spite of being sinful), the most consistently destructive to spirituality, the most likely to break hearts and destroy families, and the most pervasive and destructive of all the other transgressions against God's law. While murder is even worse, it's relative rarity makes it a less destructive influence among those who profess faith in Christ. In addition, Alma taught his son that unless one possesses the genuine spirit of chastity and virtue the ability to love in a pure and godly way is severely compromised. And  isn't godly love what the Gospel of Christ is all about?

We are taught of God that "wickedness never was happiness," yet there is no other sin with the power to beguile the sons and daughters of men into falsely believing wickedness can bring happiness, even though the Lord has most solemnly warned otherwise. For all these reasons, sexual purity is the test par excellence to determine the genuineness of one's faith in God. It is, most generally speaking, the greatest of all the refiner's fire tests the human family has faced and will continue to face. Hence the extreme importance of chastity and virtue, and truly blessed are those souls who possess these protecting gifts. And remember, within the framework of the Gospel chastity and virtue are not a mindless state-of-being but a spiritually-inspired state of mind. 

By the way, I took my cue that the spirit of genuine chastity and virtue is the most dear and precious spiritual gift one can possess from Mormon and Moroni -- I didn't pull the idea out of thin air. You see, they are the ones who said (and modern prophets have frequently reiterated) that "chastity and virtue are most dear and precious ABOVE ALL THINGS." They are the ones who said ABOVE ALL THINGS, not I. So when the day of resurrection comes you'll have the opportunity to ask the prophets Mormon and Moroni why they decided to use the qualifier, "ABOVE ALL THINGS?" But as for Yours Truly, I'm just trying my best to explain to myself --and to you-- why they used that expression while under the influence of the Spirit of God.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

The greatest of all the gifts of God is exaltation in the kingdom of God. Exaltation (eternal marriage iand eternal offspring in the heavenly state) is impossible to obtain without chastity and virtue, which are the most critically important of all the expressions of faith in God. I say chastity and virtue are the most critically important expressions of faith in God because the misuse of the power of procreation is the most widespread, the mosti alluring, the most powerfully tempting, the most intensely pleasurable (in spite of being sinful), the most consistently destructive to spirituality, the most likely to break hearts and destroy families, and the most pervasive and destructive of all the other transgressions against God's law. While murder is even worse, it's relative rarity makes it a less destructive influence among those who profess faith in Christ. In addition, Alma taught his son that unless one possesses the genuine spirit of chastity and virtue the ability to love in a pure and godly way is severely compromised. And  isn't godly love what the Gospel of Christ is all about?

That verses exactly are you talking about? There's none that I know of that talk about the "spirit of chastity and virtue." And Alma's guidance to Corianton was much more broad and focused only in part on his sexual sins. Equally on up there was pride, boasting in knowledge, vanity, and what seemed to really bother Alma - causing others to reject the gospel.

Also the part in blue is way too extreme. There's a number of holes in them. The most heartbreak, for example, hasn't been from sex but lies, pride, and contention. Even in porn addiction, I've heard again and again that the spouse just wants them to be honesty and it's more the lies that hurt. Not that the porn doesn't, I just here that more consistently. In my own family, where sexual sins have happened in varying forms (including creating yours truly).... its complicated matters, sure, but the biggest hurts in the family had little to do with it. Even in the BoM it wasn't the chastity and virtue cycle they highlight, but the pride one. Sexual sins were more like the canary in the coal mine - it was pointing out something was seriously wrong. And if it was the most pervasive and destructive, you think it would take higher precedence on the 10 commandments. There isn't one covenant that I can think of where chastity is a first or great last end all be all thing. Most of the people that I've seen divorce close-up, sexual sins weren't what destroyed them, usually...though it was often part of the  formula. It was the lying, the manipulation, the unwillingness to work things through or make sacrifices, really poor and difficult circumstances in a short period with little help, abuse, caustic fights, disregard, pride, etc that knocked it out of the park. Most alluring/powerfully tempting is also fairly subjective. Some people don't like sex, for example. Not having it isn't much work there.  And there's other things that are as, if not more so, intensely pleasurable...such as varying drugs.  

Sex (I hate saying the power of procreation, it pidgeonholes its purpose) and chastity are important. But they can be important without being the MOST important concept to ever grace God's scripture or current prophets. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Bobbieaware]

7 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

That verses exactly are you talking about? There's none that I know of that talk about the "spirit of chastity and virtue." And Alma's guidance to Corianton was much more broad and focused only in part on his sexual sins. Equally on up there was pride, boasting in knowledge, vanity, and what seemed to really bother Alma - causing others to reject the gospel.

Also the part in blue is way too extreme. There's a number of holes in them. The most heartbreak, for example, hasn't been from sex but lies, pride, and contention. Even in porn addiction, I've heard again and again that the spouse just wants them to be honesty and it's more the lies that hurt. Not that the porn doesn't, I just here that more consistently. In my own family, where sexual sins have happened in varying forms (including creating yours truly).... its complicated matters, sure, but the biggest hurts in the family had little to do with it. Even in the BoM it wasn't the chastity and virtue cycle they highlight, but the pride one. Sexual sins were more like the canary in the coal mine - it was pointing out something was seriously wrong. And if it was the most pervasive and destructive, you think it would take higher precedence on the 10 commandments. There isn't one covenant that I can think of where chastity is a first or great last end all be all thing. Most of the people that I've seen divorce close-up, sexual sins weren't what destroyed them, usually...though it was often part of the  formula. It was the lying, the manipulation, the unwillingness to work things through or make sacrifices, really poor and difficult circumstances in a short period with little help, abuse, caustic fights, disregard, pride, etc that knocked it out of the park. Most alluring/powerfully tempting is also fairly subjective. Some people don't like sex, for example. Not having it isn't much work there.  And there's other things that are as, if not more so, intensely pleasurable...such as varying drugs.  

Sex (I hate saying the power of procreation, it pidgeonholes its purpose) and chastity are important. But they can be important without being the MOST important concept to ever grace God's scripture or current prophets. 

 

With luv,

BD

Here is the verse of scripture in question:

9 And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after deprivingthem of that which was most dear and precious ABOVE ALL THINGS, which is chastity and virtue-- (Moroni 9:9)

Perhaps you could provide your own exegesis of the above verse?

I don't know what world you're living in, but in the one I inhabit there are more and more women having children out of wedlock; more and more couples living together and having sex without being married; more and more people who think chastity and "saving one's self for marriage" is a big joke;; more and more people having premarital sex and thinking there's absolutely wrong with it; more and more people routinely cheating on their spouses; more and more people addicted to pornography; more and more women having abortions as a form of birth control because too many conceived as a consequence of a casual attitude toward sex; more and more children of the nations being sexualized at earlier and earlier ages; more and more children -- even some as early as the first grade -- being taught in school that sexual perversion is normal; etc.

Here's the problem (I've said what I'm about to say in another of my posts): The problem is that sexual sin has become so pervasive and commonplace, and so widely presented as normal, healthy and morally neutral, that even some Latter-day Saints have become inured to the onslaught of sexual sin, conditioned to the point that they are unable to see the forest of sin for the trees. Just because things appear to be continuing on as normal, without the proverbial sky falling down, a great many people -- including an increasing number of the members of the Church -- are thinking since God has not as yet rained down cataclysmic destruction on the earth from heaven that sexual sin can't be as serious an issue as it was once thought. But they are wrong. The scriptures tell us the reason why God likely hasn't already come down in harsh judgment against us is because he is long-suffering and also because he allows the nations to fully ripen in iniquity before intervening and humbling them to the dust.

President Benson said sexual sin is the sin second only to murder in gravity IN THE EYES OF GOD. As men ripen in iniquity, they become blind to the seriousness of sexual transgression, but the unchangeable God is not influenced nor swayed by the fashions of fickle men, but what he sees is a multitude of the blind leading even greater hosts of the blind to edge closer and closer to the precipice of destruction. This is how the devil works: he leads the children of men down to hell with exceedingly great care. And how is that diabolical care made manifest? It's in guiding the transition from relative righteousness to wickedness to happen so gradually that it's only a prophet of God bearing down in pure and harsh testimon who can hope to awaken those who have gone spiritually blind and insentient from their sleep of death.

Bottom line? It doesn't matter what it is men think the nature of sin and sinfulness may be. But what does matter is what God says sin is. And as I'm witnessing more and more members of the Church treat the living apostles and prophets of our day as stodgy old men who are out of step with the times, I see history repeating itself once again, as it has so many times before, and cannot help but believe the prophecies that testify a large number of the active membership are going to fall before the Second Coming are well on their way In the process of being fulfilled. In saying this, please understand I am speaking of people and trends in general and and not pointing to anyone in particular.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Bobbieaware
Spelling and clarity.

[Meadowchik]

9 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I'm one of those who would deliberately downplay the importance of chastity (virtue has value, as long as we move away from simply linking virtue to a sexually chaste behaviour).

Someone else here posted about the importance of family. That I accept. I lost my wife when she was 45. I lost a son when he was 33. I lost my chastity when I was 23. 

The pain of losing two family members does not go away. It's been more than 20 years since my wife died and it's 10 years since my son died. Those are not just scars. They are open wounds. They are rips in the very fabric of ones being. Time does not cure these sores. The mere remembering of moments, words, actions, humour, caresses, bring tears to my eyes and hurt to my heart.

Chastity? Nah, not so much.

You "lost your chastity?"

I'm not sure we're on the same page. Do you mean virginity? 

Chastity and virginity are not the same. Chastity can always be restored, although a lapse in it can have lasting consequences. 

[Meadowchik]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

I think there are many things that need to be taught because we are living in a fallen world among fallen people who at times judge poorly and make huge mistakes or even worse intentionally set out to harm others.  It can be very hard to teach wisdom in dealing with one's culture as well as protecting oneself as much as possible from harm whatever the source without conveying the message we are responsible for the condemnation culture puts on us or for the pain we go through when victims.  That is, imo, one reason we must work so hard and not be dismissive about the need to remove false doctrine.  There is stuff we have to teach that too easily is translated to unnecessary guilt.  If we add stuff that we don't need to teach or even shouldn't be teaching to the mix, it just makes the chance of misinterpretation of gospel teachings into a burden rather than a refuge that much more likely.

Reminds me of obviously false tabloid political stories that undermine the real criticisms...

I'm teaching the virtue lesson in YW this Sunday. I've already planned to focus on how we as females can better control our own impulses as well as channel desires healthily. Emotional well-being, good spiritual habits and a healthy lifestyle help us to reject damaging behaviours and wait until the timing is right.

 

[bcuzbcuz]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

You "lost your chastity?"

I'm not sure we're on the same page. Do you mean virginity? 

Chastity and virginity are not the same. Chastity can always be restored, although a lapse in it can have lasting consequences. 

You're right. I lost my virginity. My chastity I regained the next day.

 

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

You're right. I lost my virginity. My chastity I regained the next day.

 

I still don't understand. You mean you repented the next day?

 

[Rain]

9 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Even in the BoM it wasn't the chastity and virtue cycle they highlight, but the pride one. Sexual sins were more like the canary in the coal mine - it was pointing out something was seriously wrong.

I cannot begin to thank you for saying that.  It just rings so true to me

I want assure others that this does NOT lessen the seriousness of sexual sins. Not in least. 

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

I cannot begin to thank you for saying that.  It just rings so true to me

I want assure others that this does NOT lessen the seriousness of sexual sins. Not in least. 

That's part of the problem, for sure.  What we call serious sexual sins a prophet calls revelation.  Whose to say the individual who commits sexual sins is not inspired by God? 

[Calm]

Stem, your thread but I find it rather off topic unless I am missing some connection.  Are you suggesting girls (those you reference in the opening post) may be in situations that God will inspire them to have sex?

[Sleeper Cell]

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

What we call serious sexual sins a prophet calls revelation.  Whose to say the individual who commits sexual sins is not inspired by God? 

Perhaps someone whom God has authorized to make such a statement.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Rain said:

I cannot begin to thank you for saying that.  It just rings so true to me

I want assure others that this does NOT lessen the seriousness of sexual sins. Not in least. 

It just struck me that Mormon himself doesn't choose to teach chasity and virtue are the most critically important expressions of faith in God (assuming BA's interpretation is correct, which I don't actually agree with) in all the scriptures he records, but the line "most dear and precious" is instead written in a letter to his son, who then includes that letter**** as there is still some room on the plates.  I am not saying it isn't of value or inspired but it wasn't part of the planned recording of God's word.  Perhaps Moroni included the letter more to teach Lamanites about the conflict and the horrors that are visited upon people and by people who have turned their backs on God given what is the actual focus of the letter then having been concerned about elevating chastity and virtue to the pinnacle of godly traits.  After all, Mormon did not mention such a teaching once throughout everything else he recorded nor did Moroni feel the need to draw attention to the comment about chastity besides including the deprivation of chastity in his list of tortures, he added nothing to the letter so it seems he saw it as saying all that needed to be said on that account, which was almost nothing about chastity outside of naming it as something valued highly that could be taken from women through violence and torture, degrading them in much the same way being forced to eat the flesh of their father degraded their mothers and younger siblings.  It is pretty lost there embedded in an account that instead of a sermon on Chastity as Faith seems to be a list of horrors once civilised people descend to when they lose the Spirit and it isn't even about making a choice to be chaste or something the victims had any control over, but describing pain and suffering imposed on victims by others, so how in the world does this verse relate to any "expression of faith"?

 ****"Moro 1:4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord."

[Calm]

18 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

And remember, within the framework of the Gospel chastity and virtue are not a mindless state-of-being but a spiritually-inspired state of mind. 

Please explain to us what that has to do with the "chastity and virtue" Mormon was talking about since that attribute was something that could very well have been taken from an unconcious victim or one that had been driven into a dissociative state.  These victims had no control over what was happening to them and likely were expressing themselves through mindlessly screaming.  How could they in any sense be described as choosing to turn away from inspired spirituality?

PS:  I am not suggesting church leaders or anyone else for that matter is wrong to teach whatever they are inspired to teach about chastity and virtue.  I think we need a lot of fervent good and wise counsel in this area to counter the teachings trivializing sex to nonintimate physical recreation that amounts to about as much value as a good workout at the gym.  And perhaps they have even been inspired to teach many spiritually uplifting lessons on chastity because the phrase "most dear and precious" drew them into being open to the Spirit for this topic.  

My issue is I see a disconnect in using Mormon's description to teach an active, purposeful and morally chosen form of chastity (the way he describes it seems fully physical and emotional and not moral as we would define morality which must in our current LDS teachings include agency)....and I think this becomes obvious because when using the verse in this way, they rarely explain the war context it is given or refer to Mormon saying the attackers deprived the women of it**** and instead skip over that part of the scriptures.  I am all for likening the scriptures or using language in new ways, but it leads to confusion and inappropriate connections when words are isolated from their context, but then the context is cited as supportive...but it is not.

****I can find two talks on lds.org dealing with chastity that reference the deprivation aspect.  One by Sister Dalton uses it in a paragraph on abuse absolving victims of guilt, the other is Pres. Benson instructing men in Priesthood Session teaching righteous priesthood holders would never do anything to deprive women of "that which, in Mormon's words" is....". Two talks/cites outside of the actual scripture citations out of how many total talks on Chastity or even ones who cite "most dear and precious" which appears to be around 15...and the context provided with the verse isn't about the woman being deprived expressing faith or lack there of.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Calm

[Tacenda]

I think it interesting that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young married other men's wives, yet it isn't adultery, or breaking the law of chastity. And we condemn these youth or say it's next to murder if they mess up.

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think it interesting that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young married other men's wives, yet it isn't adultery, or breaking the law of chastity. And we condemn these youth or say it's next to murder if they mess up.

I am not sure what your point is.

You think Joseph or Brigham did something to justify youth breaking the law of chastity? 

That it is OK to do what you want because Joseph or Brigham married other men's wives?

I guess you are free to do whatever you want because of what Joseph or  Brigham might have done.   Everyone gets a pass!  (except Joseph and Brigham).

 

 

[Jeanne]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think it interesting that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young married other men's wives, yet it isn't adultery, or breaking the law of chastity. And we condemn these youth or say it's next to murder if they mess up.

It's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.

[Bobbieaware]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Please explain to us what that has to do with the "chastity and virtue" Mormon was talking about since that attribute was something that could very well have been taken from an unconcious victim or one that had been driven into a dissociative state.  These victims had no control over what was happening to them and likely were expressing themselves through mindlessly screaming.  How could they in any sense be described as choosing to turn away from inspired spirituality?

PS:  I am not suggesting church leaders or anyone else for that matter is wrong to teach whatever they are inspired to teach about chastity and virtue.  I think we need a lot of fervent good and wise counsel in this area to counter the teachings trivializing sex to nonintimate physical recreation that amounts to about as much value as a good workout at the gym.  And perhaps they have even been inspired to teach many spiritually uplifting lessons on chastity because the phrase "most dear and precious" drew them into being open to the Spirit for this topic.  

My issue is I see a disconnect in using Mormon's description to teach an active, purposeful and morally chosen form of chastity (the way he describes it seems fully physical and emotional and not moral as we would define morality which must in our current LDS teachings include agency)....and I think this becomes obvious because when using the verse in this way, they rarely explain the war context it is given or refer to Mormon saying the attackers deprived the women of it**** and instead skip over that part of the scriptures.  I am all for likening the scriptures or using language in new ways, but it leads to confusion and inappropriate connections when words are isolated from their context, but then the context is cited as supportive...but it is not.

****I can find two talks on lds.org dealing with chastity that reference the deprivation aspect.  One by Sister Dalton uses it in a paragraph on abuse absolving victims of guilt, the other is Pres. Benson instructing men in Priesthood Session teaching righteous priesthood holders would never do anything to deprive women of "that which, in Mormon's words" is....". Two talks/cites outside of the actual scripture citations out of how many total talks on Chastity or even ones who cite "most dear and precious" which appears to be around 15...and the context provided with the verse isn't about the woman being deprived expressing faith or lack there of.

Good post, Calm.

First, it"s important to understand in Mormonism that chastity is not strictly synonymous with the physical status of virginity. Rather, chastity is a spiritual state of mind sustained by the Holy Spirit, an inspired way of thinking and behaving that enables both the female and male followers of Christ to protect and never misuse the most sacred power God has shared with man, that being the divine creative power of procreation. You must also realize I understand Mormon's declaration that chastity and virtue are most dear and precious above all things to be a statement of general principle that equally applies to all people; I do not believe the statement only applies in some specific way to the women who suffer the horrors and trauma of rape. 

If you would like to know what has informed my thinking on this subject, just go to LDS.org and do a general search under the terms "most dear and precious above all things." Many articles and addresses from the highest leaders of the Church will appear and you will see the things I've said in my posts on this thread were first spoken by modern prophets and apostles. Here's just a small sampling:

Mormon commented that chastity and virtue are “most dear and precious above all things” (Moroni 9:9). President Gordon B. Hinckley (1910–2008) taught the importance of maintaining chastity:

“And now just a word on the most common and most difficult of all problems for you young men and young women to handle. It is the relationship that you have one with another. You are dealing with the most powerful of human instincts. Only the will to live possibly exceeds it.

“The Lord has made us attractive one to another for a great purpose. But this very attraction becomes as a powder keg unless it is kept under control. It is beautiful when handled in the right way. It is deadly if it gets out of hand. …

“My dear young friends, in matters of sex you know what is right. You know when you are walking on dangerous ground, when it is so easy to stumble and slide into the pit of transgression. I plead with you to be careful, to stand safely back from the cliff of sin over which it is so easy to fall. Keep yourselves clean from the dark and disappointing evil of sexual transgression. Walk in the sunlight of that peace which comes from obedience to the commandments of the Lord. (Gordon B Hinkley)

and...

The plaguing sin of this generation is sexual immorality. This, the Prophet Joseph said, would be the source of more temptations, more buffetings, and more difficulties for the elders of Israel than any other.¹⁰

Sexual immorality is a viper that is striking not only in the world, but in the Church today. Not to admit it is to be dangerously complacent or is like putting one’s head in the sand. In the category of crimes, only murder and denying the Holy Ghost come ahead of illicit sexual relations, which we call fornication when it involves an unmarried person, or the graver sin of adultery when it involves one who is married. I know the laws of the land do not consider unchastity as serious as God does, nor punish as severely as God does, but that does not change its abominableness. In the eyes of God there is but one moral standard for men and women. In the eyes of God chastity will never be out of date. …

No sin is causing the loss of the Spirit of the Lord among our people more today than sexual promiscuity. It is causing our people to stumble, damning their growth, darkening their spiritual powers, and making them subject to other sins. (Ezra Taft Benson)

Sound familiar?

 

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Avatar4321]

On 9/2/2016 at 0:54 PM, Jeanne said:

First of all you tell young women they are NOT a pastry.  Then you tell young men that should their hormones get the best of them..it is also their responsibility and not just the young lady.  You tell a daughter of God that she is always special but she is not responsible for the actions of a priesthood holder..and then at the end of any lesson..you tell her that if she is being hurt, or has questionable actions against her person, she goes to her parents and with them head straight to a police station...and then..if she feels that she wants just good church advice...she goes to her bishop.  You let young people know that mistakes are forgiveable and that they are not trash to be discarded and that they through the process of repentance are clean...there are no holes left with nails used to be; and pastries???  They are to be enjoyed and not used as a poor example of a sin next to murder!

I must have missed the priesthood lesson where we were told that it's all the girls responsibility to stop us from violating the law of chastity.

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think it interesting that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young married other men's wives, yet it isn't adultery, or breaking the law of chastity. And we condemn these youth or say it's next to murder if they mess up.

We've been over this.
The original law of chastity was clear in the cases of Joseph and Brigham.  (Maybe a little less clear in some of their wives cases).

And I think calling adultery next to murder for those under the covenant of chastity and the marriage covenant is true. 
But like most here, I don't think it is next to murder for some kid that screws up.  But it is still pretty serious.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

You must also realize I understand Mormon's declaration that chastity and virtue are most dear and precious above all things to be a statement of general principle that equally applies to all people...

I don't know who here is arguing for sexual immorality, so can you please dispense with the off topic lectures as if anyone here needs to be convinced of the harm, sometimes extreme harm that can come from sexual immorality.  I am going to ignore those parts of your posts (and have been ignoring them mostly).

Quote

If you would like to know what has informed my thinking on this subject, just go to LDS.org and do a general search under the terms "most dear and precious above all things."

It is when you make comments like this that I have to wonder if you actually read people's posts.  I have done more than just a general search on "most dear and precious" and have posted some of my results in this very thread.  Perhaps if you read my posts closer you would understand that.  I have looked at each one of the usages of "most dear and precious" (how else would I know how the phrase was being used), many multiples times by now, along with "most precious possession" and quite a bit on chastity without any reference to Moroni. though that last is irrelevant to the argument I am making, but I was curious to see what directions and methods were and are being used to teach chastity for another project.  That is how I can tell only two of those who use the phrase "most dear and precious" used it in the way that Mormon did (at least in the sense that others can deprive victims of chastity and virtue) and that was to explain that victims were not guilty for this type of chastity loss/deprivation and were not required to repent of anything.  Others who were using the phrase were teaching chastity as an active, moral choice that might be influenced by others, but never made for us out of our control as happened to the women in Moroni.

According to google, there are only 24 non repeated/too similar to count hits of "most dear and precious" on lds.org so it is not a monumental, lifetime task to get through them.  And if you want to be sure like I did, you can ask google to put up all the results and spend time confirming they are pretty close on target.  I encourage anyone interested in the subject to search the phrase with a site:lds.org qualifier and read the articles that come up.

As to your understanding, I recognized the generic application by you of the phrase from the beginning and that is what I have been responding to in your posts, to demonstrate how this generic application is inconsistent in various ways with how the scriptures (how Mormon describes chastity) and most other leaders view things (their minds go to other things besides chastity and virtue when teaching of what is most precious to us). I think I have shown multiple times that while there are many, including leaders, who use the "most dear and precious" phrase in the generic way (it is, after all, a beautiful and highly persuasive phrase; it is understandable why it appears to be a favorite of some leaders), it does not actually make sense to use it in that way as what Mormon is describing is the result of horrific treatment in the midst of war, trauma imposed on women, not the result of our moral agency and attempts at living God's commandments and the Gospel.

Quote

First, it"s important to understand in Mormonism that chastity is not strictly synonymous with the physical status of virginity.

I am not in the least now or before addressing what chastity is in "Mormonism".  I am addressing what chastity is in the book of Moroni, specifically chapter 9.  I am, btw, quite familiar with the general topic having been listening to teachings for the past 50+ years and I don't really need that explained to me and I highly doubt anyone else here posting does either from what is discussed even if some don't agree with it or believe in time the definition may change...though perhaps there are uninformed lurkers and if so I encourage them to go read about it on lds.org rather than depending on anyone here to explain things.  I have always been in this thread addressing the use of the Moroni verse to teach the general principle of chastity and virtue and attempting to make the point of why this does not work.  You keep going off on what are to me irrelevant topics in your responses to me, imo, and I am really not interested in wasting my time on that anymore.  If you feel the need, please do so in other posts where you don't quote me so I don't have to read them to get to where you actually deal with something I've said if you happen to do so (there have been posts of yours that quote me that have had nothing to do with what I've said imo).   

I recognize I have no authority to interpret scripture for the Church.  If one of our prophets (as I recognize apostles to be) were to come and sit down with me and listen to my explanation of what I believe Mormon is saying based on what I read in his letter and know of biblical cultures (and I do assume that many of the cultural gender standards are consistent with the BoM as well as many other past cultures have been and even some now in some ways) and then he informed I was wrong because he knew that Mormon meant a spiritual form of chastity and thus our spiritual purity state can after all be unwillingly controlled and stolen away from us by others without our consent (which I personally find a horrible false doctrine  that denies moral agency and contradicts other teachings the same leaders are saying, which is why I find it so unlikely that they are actually linking their thought to the actual context as opposed to thinking of the phrase in isolation), I will certainly bow out of the conversation and no more try to point out the current disconnect I perceive between how Mormon spoke of chastity and how our leaders are teaching it, even though they are using the same set of words "most dear and precious" to describe what they are both saying...or perhaps he might even be able to persuade me that Mormon did not mean that chastity was stolen when he lamented the women's deprivation, but given the limited information the letter provides, I see no reason why anyone would attempt to do that unless perhaps they had a conversation with Mormon himself to clear things up, which I don't rule out and actually expect it to happen sometime in the future.  At this point though, I have found nowhere where a prophet has expounded on the point I am making so as far as I can tell it has not been addressed so I have not received any indirect or direct correction on my thoughts.  And so I will continue to express them here.

I am perfectly willing to receive further light from someone whose calling is to give doctrinal interpretation to scripture, but I see no reason to accept it from anyone else unless the Spirit tells me too.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Calm