Girls raised in the Church

[waveslider]

57 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

 

I'm sorry. You will need to be more clear and concise for me. The best I can figure from your clarification is that you feel the most precious thing that can be taken away is purity and virginity. Is that what you meant? 

What I'm saying is the emphasis should be on keeping oneself pure, and instead of hiding the awful facts that there truly are horrible people who do take things like this away, in a vain effort to keep people from being hurt from this type of horrific crime. Instead of hiding these evils, perhaps it can be used as a healthy learning tool: The first thing being that the word, "Virtue," doesn't always mean the same thing, It doesn't always equate to personal worthiness. The second being that God has given us a plan, and that no matter how horrible someone, or a group of people treat you it doesn't make you unworthy. The last but certainly not least, the most emphasis should be on relying upon the Spirit to learn, and to teach all subjects as well as this one. I don't think anything brought out in any particular lesson is going to fix the problems of someone who has been raped, but it sure would help to point out a scripture like this, and explain that it doesn't make you guilty of being unworthy in being a victim. What happens when that same person run across this scripture all on her own, as is also taught in our church to do by being encouraged to read and search the scriptures on our own daily, and misunderstanding it without the help of anyone else to help her see these things?

[Calm]

Define "things like this" please.  Virtue, chastity, something else?

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

I would prefer it not be thought of something that you give. And I really don't think virginity is all that precious. Encouraging them to get married doesn't necessitate trumping up ones virginhood. Personally that had little to nothing with why I'm waiting. Mine is about covenants and a severe phobia of pregnancy pre-marriage (my family sneezes and gets pregnant) and wanting to give my children the life that I wanted. Whether I or him is a virgin I could care less about. I haven't seen virginity as some magically portal that makes people's marital relationship better. In fact I've seen a number of couples who had a severe let down because they'd been waiting and building up how amazing sex would be only to go...that's what I Waited for?? 

 

This whole discussion highlights just how important it is to use the Holy Ghost, with prayer and pondering, to find out just what the scriptures actually mean. I am quite certain there is a good reason why that Moroni 9:9 was included in the church's pamphlets and study guides. I do know that meaning isn't what many here are alluding to as what it means, that these innocent victims are somehow less worthy. Too many people seem to be programmed into PC type of rationalizations.

Formatting is acting up. And I think the problem for most that I've read isn't the verse but how easy it is for the message in those verses to be confused and give unnecessary guilt and shame to the victims of sexual assault. That's the problem. 

 

With luv,

BD

 

I agree that it isn't the actual physical virginity, but spiritually at least we should, as you are being in waiting until it's proper. I personally am in the same boat and have been waiting for over a decade while I have been raising my kids from my previous marriage. As far as being worried about a sever let down, what should we teach? That we should be promiscuous because it will make you happier when you finally are married and can do those things without sinning? Perhaps if we didn't expect things to be unbelievable good the very first time, if you wait until marriage, but instead were taught to expect that we will better grow together as we both learn how to enjoy such bonds, in perfect innocence, and this is what makes it so much better than always being compared to some past fling, causing all kinds of unnoticed problems that just wouldn't be there if we had waited. Just my two cents worth anyway.

[waveslider]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Define "things like this" please.  Virtue, chastity, something else?

Yes, and anything else that might be similar to virtue and chastity.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

As far as Moroni 9:9 goes, is not rape depriving someone of her chastity and virtue, just as murder deprives her of life?

No, it may deprive her of her virginity, but her chastity and virtue comes from her own choices, not the choices of others.

"These are “only” temporal...."

CFR please that chastity and virtue are only temporal.  I have never heard of them taught as such.

[Calm]

"I agree that it isn't the actual physicalvirginity , but spiritually at least we should, as you are being in waiting until it's proper."

"where are we getting "virginity " from? That word isn't used, either."

So it would appear to that at least two who are promoting using the scripture (correction: second one was just discussing it) to teach importance of virtue to young women aren't agreeing on what the verse actually says (or so it seems to me).  If it can be this confusing to a group of believers who would love the scriptures to be useful and inspiring in every way and who are accustomed to debates and how one needs to look for nuances, how much more confusing the verse will be to young, impressionable girls.  I think the confusion outweighs any value.  Better to appeal to other teachings and not this one just because of a desire to use scriptures in a lesson or a fondness for the BoM or whatever triggered the impulse.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Calm

[rongo]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

"I agree that it isn't the actual physicalvirginity , but spiritually at least we should, as you are being in waiting until it's proper."

"where are we getting "virginity " from? That word isn't used, either."

So it would appear to that at least two who are promoting using the scripture to teach importance of virtue to young women aren't agreeing on what the verse actually says (or so it seems to me).  If it can be this confusing to a group of believers who would love the scriptures to be useful and inspiring in every way and who are accustomed to debates and how one needs to look for nuances, how much more confusing the verse will be to young, impressionable girls.  I think the confusion outweighs any value.  Better to appeal to other teachings and not this one just because of a desire to use scriptures in a lesson or a fondness for the BoM or whatever triggered the impulse.

Mine is the second one.

1) I haven't said that Moroni 9:9 should be used to teach the law of chastity. There are better scriptures for that. What I objected to was the view that Mormon/the Book of Mormon teaches that involuntary rape results in a loss of virtue and chastity as we understand it. I got the feeling from some that they would strike it from the Book of Mormon if it were up to them.

2)  Do you at least agree that virginity is not mentioned in this passage? That was, after all, the main point in the part you quoted from me.

 

[waveslider]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

"I agree that it isn't the actual physicalvirginity , but spiritually at least we should, as you are being in waiting until it's proper."

"where are we getting "virginity " from? That word isn't used, either."

So it would appear to that at least two who are promoting using the scripture to teach importance of virtue to young women aren't agreeing on what the verse actually says (or so it seems to me).  If it can be this confusing to a group of believers who would love the scriptures to be useful and inspiring in every way and who are accustomed to debates and how one needs to look for nuances, how much more confusing the verse will be to young, impressionable girls.  I think the confusion outweighs any value.  Better to appeal to other teachings and not this one just because of a desire to use scriptures in a lesson or a fondness for the BoM or whatever triggered the impulse.

It isn't a personal desire to use a scripture but rather a desire to sustain what the church leaders have authorized for the use of teaching such principles. As for the word, "virginity," sorry I am human too and assumed that by them being daughters who had virtue and chastity, and therefore probably weren't married, that they by default would also be virgins. Perhaps in our personal desire to hide things from someone because we think it might hurt them, that instead we still allowed them to see it and explained that it doesn't mean that these daughters weren't worthy anymore, only that they had been deprived of something that is obviously more valuable than the lives of their loved ones. Perhaps we should ponder and pray and find out why these things are so valuable, instead of simply not understanding it's true importance. Instead of taking a consensus on which scriptures should be cut out of lesson material, we should instead sustain our leaders who have access to revelation for these types of things and have deemed it a necessary scripture to include. We should try and prayerfully find out why as we ponder and study it, instead of just complaining in our ignorance of why it was included in the first place. Just my two cents worth anyway.

You are out of line. Do not judge another poster's worthiness and do not preach to them. Read the board guidelines before you proceed.  This is a message board not Sunday School. Next time it will be a thread ban.

Edited September 4, 2016 by waveslider
Changed two words that I missed before posting, in order to make it more nuteral instead of personal. Sorry for not proof reading before posting. I hope this fixes it.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

No, it may deprive her of her virginity, but her chastity and virtue comes from her own choices, not the choices of others.

"These are “only” temporal...."

CFR please that chastity and virtue are only temporal.  I have never heard of them taught as such.

I put “only” in quotes in an effort to explain that there is an overriding spiritual and eternal aspect to chastity and virtue that controls the choices we make in our immortal, resurrected bodies. But that choice to act in the mortal flesh has been robbed from victims. The comparison by some teachers of the tabernacle of flesh with edible treats emphasizes this temporal and physical view of chastity and virtue and is destructively superficial in comparison with the spiritual and eternal attributes that victims possess and must draw upon to eventually put their ordeal into the perspective the Atonement affords. The damage is in believing the lie that their soul is like food (that chastity is virginity), or just a body, defined by the involuntary subjection of that body to an abuser.

The message that chastity and virtue are “only temporal” come from those who have made them so in their own minds, as evidenced by comparing the body with food.

In 1 Nephi 11:20, the virgin was seen to bear her son in her arms, an indicator that the word is used to convey chastity and virtue of a worthy mother as it does in Revelation 14:4 to describe a worthy high priest (D&C 77:11). Also, the adjective “chaste” is used to describe a certain spiritual caliber of virgin, so there seems to be some flexibility in how the words are used in the text to convey “virtue.”

[Guest]

On September 2, 2016 at 10:21 AM, stemelbow said:

I fear we continue to have a terrible view of women in the Church and thus a harmful way of teaching girls as they grow.  I don't mean to say it's all bad or bleak.  We have a Church that teaches girls from very early on, their place.  I dont' like the idea of putting limits or restrictions on anyone.  Dont' get me wrong, I'm not saying there is no opportunity for girls or women in the Church.  And I do agree there is plenty in how the Church views women and girls that is ok and good.  But ti's not perfect and we're not a perfect society. 

Elizabeth Smart recently did an interview wherein she discusses one way in which girls have been taught poorly. 

Says the piece:

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/elizabeth-smart-is-standing-up-for-rape-victimsand-tearing-down-purity-culture

Having been a boy in the church I didn't see these analogies.  I guess I slept through them. But as I got older I learned girls were be told these things and many didn't like it, nor appreciate. 

Sometimes we're not a very thoughtful bunch.  I worry about my young daughters having to go through some of the teaching in the Church.  My oldest boy is 17 and he's been through the ringer with some lessons, but I think it'll be much more difficult for my daughters.  Anyway, does anyone see value in the types of messages Elizabeth got?  I don't. 

To revist the OP, Chasity is so important that great to wieight needs to be given on a topic that leave them pregnant without a father, and so many diseases that call having lasting effects throughout life. When my daughter was 24 she thought she would never be a mother and wife. I promised her that once she finished college, she would have all she desires. At 26 she was sick and had to go to the ER...the doctor asked when she had last been sexually active. She informed the doctor that she had never been "active". My wife was asked to leave the room so he could do an exam, and that led my wife that she could not be truthful with her in the room. Upon exam, the doctor apologized to my wife...my wife angrily told him to go apolgize to her. My daughter has spoken often that teachings in Church helped her remain pure until married. I see teaching in Church as a positive thing and not harmful. 

Edited September 4, 2016 by Pa Pa
Misspelling

[Calm]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

Mine is the second one.

1) I haven't said that Moroni 9:9 should be used to teach the law of chastity. There are better scriptures for that. What I objected to was the view that Mormon/the Book of Mormon teaches that involuntary rape results in a loss of virtue and chastity as we understand it. I got the feeling from some that they would strike it from the Book of Mormon if it were up to them.

2)  Do you at least agree that virginity is not mentioned in this passage? That was, after all, the main point in the part you quoted from me.

 

Yes, agree that virginity is not mentioned.  It was a good catch.  When argunig against language we need to be precise.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I put “only” in quotes in an effort to explain that there is an overriding spiritual and eternal aspect to chastity and virtue that controls the choices we make in our immortal, resurrected bodies. But that choice to act in the mortal flesh has been robbed from victims. The comparison by some teachers of the tabernacle of flesh with edible treats emphasizes this temporal and physical view of chastity and virtue and is destructively superficial in comparison with the spiritual and eternal attributes that victims possess and must draw upon to eventually put their ordeal into the perspective the Atonement affords. The damage is in believing the lie that their soul is like food (that chastity is virginity), or just a body, defined by the involuntary subjection of that body to an abuser.

The message that chastity and virtue are “only temporal” come from those who have made them so in their own minds, as evidenced by comparing the body with food.

In 1 Nephi 11:20, the virgin was seen to bear her son in her arms, an indicator that the word is used to convey chastity and virtue of a worthy mother as it does in Revelation 14:4 to describe a worthy high priest (D&C 77:11). Also, the adjective “chaste” is used to describe a certain spiritual caliber of virgin, so there seems to be some flexibility in how the words are used in the text to convey “virtue.”

it may be possible I agree with you.  (I generally do) Your exact meaning combined with your previous post isn't jumping out at me, I will have to read it later when other things are not occupying my mind.

[Calm]

Waveslider, I have no desire to hide or remove the verses.  I just believe they have no place in a lesson about chastity to young women.  With youth there is a good chance you have at least one who will listen to the first five, ten minutes and if you need to teach a highly nuanced interpretation that few would get from reading the verses in isolation, once you past the ten minute mark that indiviauls or two or three will be going home with the idea that abuse equals loss of physical virtue and purity, mostly interpreted as the loss of virginity being the sign of such.

Otoh, the verses would be a great lesson in demonstrating the love and care prophets have for their people, the great desire to protect them and the sorrow when they cannot as well as teaching how men, even loving prophets, can often just nor understand what is important, even most important to women so we need to work at communicating to them and forgive them when they err and above all else remember the reverse is happening as well, women don't understand what is important to men so we need to ask.

 

(thanks to whoever stepped in to look out for me, that was kind)

[waveslider]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Waveslider, I have no desire to hide or remove the verses.  I just believe they have no place in a lesson about chastity to young women.  With youth there is a good chance you have at least one who will listen to the first five, ten minutes and if you need to teach a highly nuanced interpretation that few would get from reading the verses in isolation, once you past the ten minute mark that indiviauls or two or three will be going home with the idea that abuse equals loss of physical virtue and purity, mostly interpreted as the loss of virginity being the sign of such.

Otoh, the verses would be a great lesson in demonstrating the love and care prophets have for their people, the great desire to protect them and the sorrow when they cannot as well as teaching how men, even loving prophets, can often just nor understand what is important, even most important to women so we need to work at communicating to them and forgive them when they err and above all else remember the reverse is happening as well, women don't understand what is important to men so we need to ask.

 

(thanks to whoever stepped in to look out for me, that was kind)

I am sorry I didn't proof read my post before I sent it. I really did mean to make it neutral.

I agree with the short attention spans you speak of, and I think this illustrates the absolute need to teach by the Spirit. I'm quite certain that if a teacher was in tune with the Spirit he/she would be guided to make sure everyone knew what was supposed to be taught, and what not to teach in any particular lesson, if there were someone who was going to have more problems as a result of the lesson. I certainly, as a teacher have been restrained in teaching certain aspects from a lesson manual, and been inspired to allow extra time (even at the expense of not covering the entire lesson) on a certain point, even if it doesn't make sense at first to do that.

I really do like you and the others here, I hope I didn't make you feel attacked or anything. I find it very hard to express my feelings properly in only written words, and many times probably come off in a different light than I intended. I am pretty clumsy in that way. I am always up for admitting when I have realized I was wrong in some of my opinions and I truly meant not harm to you. I hope you can please forgive me. I sincerely apologize with all the love and aloha I can have!

[Bernard Gui]

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yes, agree that virginity is not mentioned.  It was a good catch.  When argunig against language we need to be precise.

Would "innocence" be a better word?

•  lack of experience with the world and with the bad things that happen in life

• lack of knowledge about something

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

I was wondering if that was better to use myself and would like others' opinions.  The only problem is that some think of it as associated with guilt but I think most understand it is a certain way of looking at and being in the world.

 

[Tacenda]

There are young women out there that were sexually active because that is how they thought they'd get any love. I'm sure the male made her feel like she had to have sex for them to stay with her. A lot of young women don't have a good father figure or have been sexually abused.

I know a few women personally that were abused either by a step father or a biological father, a few weren't virgins, and probably didn't have a healthy view of sexuality. These women would probably be called a slut in circles that condemn too swiftly, but they don't deserve that label. 

But I know there needs to be something out there to help young folks to abstain, without making them feel all is lost. I appreciate the talks that stress forgiveness, many of these have came by way of General Conference talks.

 

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, waveslider said:

I am sorry I didn't proof read my post before I sent it. I really did mean to make it neutral.

I agree with the short attention spans you speak of, and I think this illustrates the absolute need to teach by the Spirit. I'm quite certain that if a teacher was in tune with the Spirit he/she would be guided to make sure everyone knew what was supposed to be taught, and what not to teach in any particular lesson, if there were someone who was going to have more problems as a result of the lesson. I certainly, as a teacher have been restrained in teaching certain aspects from a lesson manual, and been inspired to allow extra time (even at the expense of not covering the entire lesson) on a certain point, even if it doesn't make sense at first to do that.

I really do like you and the others here, I hope I didn't make you feel attacked or anything. I find it very hard to express my feelings properly in only written words, and many times probably come off in a different light than I intended. I am pretty clumsy in that way. I am always up for admitting when I have realized I was wrong in some of my opinions and I truly meant not harm to you. I hope you can please forgive me. I sincerely apologize with all the love and aloha I can have!

Well, I know of too many incidents where members have left the classrooms upset because of a callous remark of a teacher or another member where the teacher did not step in and correct it.  There are many times that even the most well intentioned and spiritual teacher may get thrown for a time by something, some crisis, some preoccupation and the Spirit isn't being heard as clearly as it could be.  And there are lots of teachers that are nervous or even just don't care.  

Rather than subject the youth of these teachers to a verse that needs the teacher to hold the hands of the children in the class to work over the minefield, why not remove the minefield altogether in youth chastity lessons and use other teaching of which there are tons from prophets and church leaders for the doctrinal support.

It didn't bother me.  I think we do need to be very careful about implying that someone else isn't agreeing with us because they haven't sought out the Spirit or don't have its company at the moment.

In discussing curriculum development with those involved, I have never heard them expressed the idea that they could not be improved or that they did not want suggestions.  In the manuals they have had for all the decades I was a teacher and a librarian a request that readers/teachers send in any suggestions to the Curriculum Dept.  I take them at their word and have sent some ideas in, always graciously accepted and never told by anyone the manuals are just fine the way they are, all that is in them is revealed and thus they are in no need of changing.  Instead I see the efforts where something new or altered is coming out of the curriculum dept. all the time.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Calm

[Rain]

I like innocense better, but I agree it still has a guilt association. Naivity comes to mind,  but it doesn't work well for me for some reason.  I don't know.  

[BlueDreams]

5 hours ago, waveslider said:

I agree that it isn't the actual physical virginity, but spiritually at least we should, as you are being in waiting until it's proper. I personally am in the same boat and have been waiting for over a decade while I have been raising my kids from my previous marriage. As far as being worried about a sever let down, what should we teach? That we should be promiscuous because it will make you happier when you finally are married and can do those things without sinning? Perhaps if we didn't expect things to be unbelievable good the very first time, if you wait until marriage, but instead were taught to expect that we will better grow together as we both learn how to enjoy such bonds, in perfect innocence, and this is what makes it so much better than always being compared to some past fling, causing all kinds of unnoticed problems that just wouldn't be there if we had waited. Just my two cents worth anyway.

Well if i had it my way there would be a massive cultural/spiritual overhaul to how we handle both chastity lessons and teaching about sexuality in general. How we teach YW's between 12-18 is only a part of the problem. The overall context that I remember most is being taught to not do basically anything beyond "chaste" kisses, with relatively vague discussion as to what not to do, and even more insistence to be cautious. The way we talk about it, it's like our sexuality will sneak up on us when we least suspect it... like an enemy in the night or the most blessed experience you've ever had. Most people do not get good sex ed...anywhere (Talking US in particular. Other countries differ). Not at home, not at school (particularly in certain states and particularly if their parents decide they don't want them in it and can opt out), certainly not at church. What's given them is colloquial wisdom. Where we learn how to do sexuality is then left from social/secular outlets which give just as a distorted view. So if someone was extra cautious to not have that also in their life, they can really be SUPER innocent and even skittish or repulsed by sexual behavior. I still find it funny that somehow, I, a physical virgin, will know more about sexuality than a young married couple. There's something wrong with that.  

We may be in the same boat in some ways, but I talk about myself and my sexuality very differently. For one I believe I'm sexually expressing and that I have been developing sexual expression since I was young (without the word to describe it). Like any other part of my body, I'm learning how to treat it with respect and have it best serve me and my beliefs. Since I'm LDS I do not express in certain ways but I do express in others. My personal journey will differ from another but it's made with God, thinking things through, knowing my limits, and what feels like a correct expression given the time and place. It is not repressed, pushed down, or placed to the side for a later day. It is respected, known and understood, and a part of my day-to-day. I do not hide it and I make my decisions about it in a relationship with thought and care.

So in my world, for what I would like to see:

1. at a young age (think 4-6) we would teach about body parts, their proper names, that their bodies are temples and special, and that they have a right to tell people not to touch them. The concept Good touch/bad touch can be introduced. And I would coach them on how to share when someone may have touched them wrong to someone older who can help them. 

2. At 8-12, I would start teaching them about what changes will happen in both male and female bodies. With pictures. Often children are curious about the body and that curiosity gets hijacked by inappropriate pictures and shame. I would want the human body to not be a mystery or a source of anxiety.  In my personal home, I would like it to be similar to a friend of mine who uses proper names and answers any questions without a lot of squirming, helping them understand differences. It's at this age that I would also want children to learn about what pornography is and what to do if exposed to it. This would also entail parent discussions and helping them better understand the issue and how to talk to kids about it. Most cases that I have where there's porn addiction were exposed sometime at this age. 

3. At 12-18 I would teach them about healthy ways to sexually express and learning to respect and bridle their hormones so that they work for them. I would specifically explain terms and behaviors. And would lead a discussion for what would be best for them to have a healthy experience both with beginning to explore crushes and to have it be done with forethought and not impulse. I wouldn't really change dating or physical boundaries found in FTSoY because it works pretty well for teens. But I would probably destigmatize masturbation at least a little (not porn). This is probably my most unorthodox view and I know it. I have reasons for it dealing with what I've seen in my job. I would also help YW know that finding interest and sexual desire is good and healthy and expected for both boys and girls, though it may show itself differently. I would also help them to start realizing that sex is best to be shared in marriage with a committed partner. I would get rid of the sacred/bad model that we often talk about sex and chastity in and talk about Bad, good, better, and best. I would point out that their sexual desires shouldn't outweigh their hopes and dreams and relationship with God but work with these.  

4. As YSA age I would lead group discussions and help them better understand sexual response. For women this would entail a better knowledge base of their body and that their sexual desires are good and apart of developing a relationship both before and after marriage. I would strongly emphasize that each person needs to figure out what that means for them and that it should be in consideration with a knowledge of their own weaknesses, honoring their sexual voice, humble prayer, and in concordance with where they're at in a relationship. This is where the FTSoY pamphlet and advice starts to kinda have some dissonance and a part of the reason the lessons get quieter and quieter particularly in older YSA wards. The guidelines aren't fitting anymore....not as well. So a lot of behavior except for the blatant crossing of the LoC goes underground. There are still really really innocent couples out there. Yes. But it's not necessarily better and they're not super common. For engaged couples I would love for the discussions around sex to be very very very frank. I would like to have them understand, particularly if they're on the very innocent end and/or have dated a short period of time that they need not have sex on their wedding night. That they can take their time in better understanding their sexual responses together and to learn together both with experiencing and reading the "best books" to gain knowledge about things. For any couple I would note taking your time, to not focus on performance or sexual achievements, but understanding each other, learning to share and know your and each other's bodies, to find what works not just for one partner but for both, and to have fun. I would hope that the basics of knowing oneself and practicing sexual voice had begun and was promoted well before this (in steps 1-3). 

5. I would have frank discussions with adults about talking about sex with their children and that this is an important knowledge. It's with them that I would be really frank about the consequences of not doing so. And how moroni 9:9 can take effect in sexual assualts. I would have a lot of the discussions I'm having in my office all the time in larger adult groups to help better understand sexuality and avoid sexual rutts. If this is truly a sacrament and command I would hope that we would do our best to work to treasure sexuality in all it's forms....from a hand hold to intercourse, from a first crush to an eternal partner. That it's journey would be treated with sacredness. That men may have guidance and wisdom in developing means to listen to their partners and better sources of knowledge on sex than pornography and friends. That women would embrace their individual sexuality, have room to know it, and learn to voice themselves. How to maintain sexuality when problems arise. That we could better fortify our children and younger generations to know their bodies and have the tools to protect their bodies and safety when others try to take advantage or inappropriate material is introduced. I would hope that as we talk more openly, mercifully, and knowledgeably they amount of assualt, coercion, and heartache would also decrease. 

 

Obviously that's a tall order. So I'll just stick with my job and sporadic presentations right now and work from there. 

 

With luv,

BD

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by BlueDreams

[waveslider]

18 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Well if i had it my way there would be a massive cultural/spiritual overhaul to how we handle both chastity lessons and teaching about sexuality in general. How we teach YW's between 12-18 is only a part of the problem. The overall context that I remember most is being taught to not do basically anything beyond "chaste" kisses, with relatively vague discussion as to what not to do, and even more insistence to be cautious. The way we talk about it, it's like our sexuality will sneak up on us when we least suspect it... like an enemy in the night or the most blessed experience you've ever had. Most people do not get good sex ed...anywhere (Talking US in particular. Other countries differ). Not at home, not at school (particularly in certain states and particularly if their parents decide they don't want them in it and can opt out), certainly not at church. What's given them is colloquial wisdom. Where we learn how to do sexuality is then left from social/secular outlets which give just as a distorted view. So if someone was extra cautious to not have that also in their life, they can really be SUPER innocent and even skittish or repulsed by sexual behavior. I still find it funny that somehow, I, a physical virgin, will know more about sexuality than a young married couple. There's something wrong with that.  

We may be in the same boat in some ways, but I talk about myself and my sexuality very differently. For one I believe I'm sexually expressing and that I have been developing sexual expression since I was young (without the word to describe it). Like any other part of my body, I'm learning how to treat it with respect and have it best serve me and my beliefs. Since I'm LDS I do not express in certain ways but I do express in others. My personal journey will differ from another but it's made with God, thinking things through, knowing my limits, and what feels like a correct expression given the time and place. It is not repressed, pushed down, or placed to the side for a later day. It is respected, known and understood, and a part of my day-to-day. I do not hide it and I make my decisions about it in a relationship with thought and care.

So in my world, for what I would like to see:

1. at a young age (think 4-6) we would teach about body parts, their proper names, that their bodies are temples and special, and that they have a right to tell people not to touch them. The concept Good touch/bad touch can be introduced. And I would coach them on how to share when someone may have touched them wrong to someone older who can help them. 

2. At 8-12, I would start teaching them about what changes will happen in both male and female bodies. With pictures. Often children are curious about the body and that curiosity gets hijacked by inappropriate pictures and shame. I would want the human body to not be a mystery or a source of anxiety.  In my personal home, I would like it to be similar to a friend of mine who uses proper names and answers any questions without a lot of squirming, helping them understand differences. It's at this age that I would also want children to learn about what pornography is and what to do if exposed to it. This would also entail parent discussions and helping them better understand the issue and how to talk to kids about it. Most cases that I have where there's porn addiction were exposed sometime at this age. 

3. At 12-18 I would teach them about healthy ways to sexually express and learning to respect and bridle their hormones so that they work for them. I would specifically explain terms and behaviors. And would lead a discussion for what would be best for them to have a healthy experience both with beginning to explore crushes and to have it be done with forethought and not impulse. I wouldn't really change dating or physical boundaries found in FTSoY because it works pretty well for teens. But I would probably destigmatize masturbation at least a little (not porn). This is probably my most unorthodox view and I know it. I have reasons for it dealing with what I've seen in my job. I would also help YW know that finding interest and sexual desire is good and healthy and expected for both boys and girls, though it may show itself differently. I would also help them to start realizing that sex is best to be shared in marriage with a committed partner. I would get rid of the sacred/bad model that we often talk about sex and chastity in and talk about Bad, good, better, and best. I would point out that their sexual desires shouldn't outweigh their hopes and dreams and relationship with God but work with these.  

4. As YSA age I would lead group discussions and help them better understand sexual response. For women this would entail a better knowledge base of their body and that their sexual desires are good and apart of developing a relationship both before and after marriage. I would strongly emphasize that each person needs to figure out what that means for them and that it should be in consideration with a knowledge of their own weaknesses, honoring their sexual voice, humble prayer, and in concordance with where they're at in a relationship. This is where the FTSoY pamphlet and advice starts to kinda have some dissonance and a part of the reason the lessons get quieter and quieter particularly in older YSA wards. The guidelines aren't fitting anymore....not as well. So a lot of behavior except for the blatant crossing of the LoC goes underground. There are still really really innocent couples out there. Yes. But it's not necessarily better and they're not super common. For engaged couples I would love for the discussions around sex to be very very very frank. I would like to have them understand, particularly if they're on the very innocent end and/or have dated a short period of time that they need not have sex on their wedding night. That they can take their time in better understanding their sexual responses together and to learn together both with experiencing and reading the "best books" to gain knowledge about things. For any couple I would note taking your time, to not focus on performance or sexual achievements, but understanding each other, learning to share and know your and each other's bodies, to find what works not just for one partner but for both, and to have fun. I would hope that the basics of knowing oneself and practicing sexual voice had begun and was promoted well before this (in steps 1-3). 

5. I would have frank discussions with adults about talking about sex with their children and that this is an important knowledge. It's with them that I would be really frank about the consequences of not doing so. And how moroni 9:9 can take effect in sexual assualts. I would have a lot of the discussions I'm having in my office all the time in larger adult groups to help better understand sexuality and avoid sexual rutts. If this is truly a sacrament and command I would hope that we would do our best to work to treasure sexuality in all it's forms....from a hand hold to intercourse, from a first crush to an eternal partner. That it's journey would be treated with sacredness. That men may have guidance and wisdom in developing means to listen to their partners and better sources of knowledge on sex than pornography and friends. That women would embrace their individual sexuality, have room to know it, and learn to voice themselves. How to maintain sexuality when problems arise. That we could better fortify our children and younger generations to know their bodies and have the tools to protect their bodies and safety when others try to take advantage or inappropriate material is introduced. I would hope that as we talk more openly, mercifully, and knowledgeably they amount of assualt, coercion, and heartache would also decrease. 

 

Obviously that's a tall order. So I'll just stick with my job and sporadic presentations right now and work from there. 

 

With luv,

BD

 

Thank you for the detailed answer. I don't exactly agree with absolutely every detail, but I do agree with the general gist of it. I especially like number 5.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I like innocense better, but I agree it still has a guilt association. Naivity comes to mind,  but it doesn't work well for me for some reason.  I don't know.  

I went to the thesuarus as I slways do when stuck looking for a word and I don't think in English there is a better one unfortunately.  Too bad it has that second meaning of not guilty.

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

 I think we do need to be very careful about implying that someone else isn't agreeing with us because they haven't sought out the Spirit or don't have its company at the moment.

I never meant to imply this, I am realizing that personal revelation is just that, "personal." I have now realized what it might sound like to others' who have entirely different experiences than what I have had. Again sorry! I'll try and think things out a little better before chiming in. That is awesome that you have sent in ideas to the curriculum department. I never would see that as being wrong to do, and I'm quite certain that is the correct route to go by when we don't like what is presented as lesson material.

[Rain]

I'm curious if those of you who know Hebrew, Egyptian etc know if those languages have a better word?

Edited September 4, 2016 by Rain

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Well if i had it my way there would be a massive cultural/spiritual overhaul to how we handle both chastity lessons and teaching about sexuality in general. How we teach YW's between 12-18 is only a part of the problem. The overall context that I remember most is being taught to not do basically anything beyond "chaste" kisses, with relatively vague discussion as to what not to do, and even more insistence to be cautious. The way we talk about it, it's like our sexuality will sneak up on us when we least suspect it... like an enemy in the night or the most blessed experience you've ever had. Most people do not get good sex ed...anywhere (Talking US in particular. Other countries differ). Not at home, not at school (particularly in certain states and particularly if their parents decide they don't want them in it and can opt out), certainly not at church. What's given them is colloquial wisdom. Where we learn how to do sexuality is then left from social/secular outlets which give just as a distorted view. So if someone was extra cautious to not have that also in their life, they can really be SUPER innocent and even skittish or repulsed by sexual behavior. I still find it funny that somehow, I, a physical virgin, will know more about sexuality than a young married couple. There's something wrong with that.  

We may be in the same boat in some ways, but I talk about myself and my sexuality very differently. For one I believe I'm sexually expressing and that I have been developing sexual expression since I was young (without the word to describe it). Like any other part of my body, I'm learning how to treat it with respect and have it best serve me and my beliefs. Since I'm LDS I do not express in certain ways but I do express in others. My personal journey will differ from another but it's made with God, thinking things through, knowing my limits, and what feels like a correct expression given the time and place. It is not repressed, pushed down, or placed to the side for a later day. It is respected, known and understood, and a part of my day-to-day. I do not hide it and I make my decisions about it in a relationship with thought and care.

So in my world, for what I would like to see:

1. at a young age (think 4-6) we would teach about body parts, their proper names, that their bodies are temples and special, and that they have a right to tell people not to touch them. The concept Good touch/bad touch can be introduced. And I would coach them on how to share when someone may have touched them wrong to someone older who can help them. 

2. At 8-12, I would start teaching them about what changes will happen in both male and female bodies. With pictures. Often children are curious about the body and that curiosity gets hijacked by inappropriate pictures and shame. I would want the human body to not be a mystery or a source of anxiety.  In my personal home, I would like it to be similar to a friend of mine who uses proper names and answers any questions without a lot of squirming, helping them understand differences. It's at this age that I would also want children to learn about what pornography is and what to do if exposed to it. This would also entail parent discussions and helping them better understand the issue and how to talk to kids about it. Most cases that I have where there's porn addiction were exposed sometime at this age. 

3. At 12-18 I would teach them about healthy ways to sexually express and learning to respect and bridle their hormones so that they work for them. I would specifically explain terms and behaviors. And would lead a discussion for what would be best for them to have a healthy experience both with beginning to explore crushes and to have it be done with forethought and not impulse. I wouldn't really change dating or physical boundaries found in FTSoY because it works pretty well for teens. But I would probably destigmatize masturbation at least a little (not porn). This is probably my most unorthodox view and I know it. I have reasons for it dealing with what I've seen in my job. I would also help YW know that finding interest and sexual desire is good and healthy and expected for both boys and girls, though it may show itself differently. I would also help them to start realizing that sex is best to be shared in marriage with a committed partner. I would get rid of the sacred/bad model that we often talk about sex and chastity in and talk about Bad, good, better, and best. I would point out that their sexual desires shouldn't outweigh their hopes and dreams and relationship with God but work with these.  

4. As YSA age I would lead group discussions and help them better understand sexual response. For women this would entail a better knowledge base of their body and that their sexual desires are good and apart of developing a relationship both before and after marriage. I would strongly emphasize that each person needs to figure out what that means for them and that it should be in consideration with a knowledge of their own weaknesses, honoring their sexual voice, humble prayer, and in concordance with where they're at in a relationship. This is where the FTSoY pamphlet and advice starts to kinda have some dissonance and a part of the reason the lessons get quieter and quieter particularly in older YSA wards. The guidelines aren't fitting anymore....not as well. So a lot of behavior except for the blatant crossing of the LoC goes underground. There are still really really innocent couples out there. Yes. But it's not necessarily better and they're not super common. For engaged couples I would love for the discussions around sex to be very very very frank. I would like to have them understand, particularly if they're on the very innocent end and/or have dated a short period of time that they need not have sex on their wedding night. That they can take their time in better understanding their sexual responses together and to learn together both with experiencing and reading the "best books" to gain knowledge about things. For any couple I would note taking your time, to not focus on performance or sexual achievements, but understanding each other, learning to share and know your and each other's bodies, to find what works not just for one partner but for both, and to have fun. I would hope that the basics of knowing oneself and practicing sexual voice had begun and was promoted well before this (in steps 1-3). 

5. I would have frank discussions with adults about talking about sex with their children and that this is an important knowledge. It's with them that I would be really frank about the consequences of not doing so. And how moroni 9:9 can take effect in sexual assualts. I would have a lot of the discussions I'm having in my office all the time in larger adult groups to help better understand sexuality and avoid sexual rutts. If this is truly a sacrament and command I would hope that we would do our best to work to treasure sexuality in all it's forms....from a hand hold to intercourse, from a first crush to an eternal partner. That it's journey would be treated with sacredness. That men may have guidance and wisdom in developing means to listen to their partners and better sources of knowledge on sex than pornography and friends. That women would embrace their individual sexuality, have room to know it, and learn to voice themselves. How to maintain sexuality when problems arise. That we could better fortify our children and younger generations to know their bodies and have the tools to protect their bodies and safety when others try to take advantage or inappropriate material is introduced. I would hope that as we talk more openly, mercifully, and knowledgeably they amount of assualt, coercion, and heartache would also decrease. 

 

Obviously that's a tall order. So I'll just stick with my job and sporadic presentations right now and work from there. 

 

With luv,

BD

 

Beautiful!!