Girls raised in the Church

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Well if i had it my way there would be a massive cultural/spiritual overhaul to how we handle both chastity lessons and teaching about sexuality in general. How we teach YW's between 12-18 is only a part of the problem. The overall context that I remember most is being taught to not do basically anything beyond "chaste" kisses, with relatively vague discussion as to what not to do, and even more insistence to be cautious. The way we talk about it, it's like our sexuality will sneak up on us when we least suspect it... like an enemy in the night or the most blessed experience you've ever had. Most people do not get good sex ed...anywhere (Talking US in particular. Other countries differ). Not at home, not at school (particularly in certain states and particularly if their parents decide they don't want them in it and can opt out), certainly not at church. What's given them is colloquial wisdom. Where we learn how to do sexuality is then left from social/secular outlets which give just as a distorted view. So if someone was extra cautious to not have that also in their life, they can really be SUPER innocent and even skittish or repulsed by sexual behavior. I still find it funny that somehow, I, a physical virgin, will know more about sexuality than a young married couple. There's something wrong with that.  

We may be in the same boat in some ways, but I talk about myself and my sexuality very differently. For one I believe I'm sexually expressing and that I have been developing sexual expression since I was young (without the word to describe it). Like any other part of my body, I'm learning how to treat it with respect and have it best serve me and my beliefs. Since I'm LDS I do not express in certain ways but I do express in others. My personal journey will differ from another but it's made with God, thinking things through, knowing my limits, and what feels like a correct expression given the time and place. It is not repressed, pushed down, or placed to the side for a later day. It is respected, known and understood, and a part of my day-to-day. I do not hide it and I make my decisions about it in a relationship with thought and care.

So in my world, for what I would like to see:

1. at a young age (think 4-6) we would teach about body parts, their proper names, that their bodies are temples and special, and that they have a right to tell people not to touch them. The concept Good touch/bad touch can be introduced. And I would coach them on how to share when someone may have touched them wrong to someone older who can help them. 

2. At 8-12, I would start teaching them about what changes will happen in both male and female bodies. With pictures. Often children are curious about the body and that curiosity gets hijacked by inappropriate pictures and shame. I would want the human body to not be a mystery or a source of anxiety.  In my personal home, I would like it to be similar to a friend of mine who uses proper names and answers any questions without a lot of squirming, helping them understand differences. It's at this age that I would also want children to learn about what pornography is and what to do if exposed to it. This would also entail parent discussions and helping them better understand the issue and how to talk to kids about it. Most cases that I have where there's porn addiction were exposed sometime at this age. 

3. At 12-18 I would teach them about healthy ways to sexually express and learning to respect and bridle their hormones so that they work for them. I would specifically explain terms and behaviors. And would lead a discussion for what would be best for them to have a healthy experience both with beginning to explore crushes and to have it be done with forethought and not impulse. I wouldn't really change dating or physical boundaries found in FTSoY because it works pretty well for teens. But I would probably destigmatize masturbation at least a little (not porn). This is probably my most unorthodox view and I know it. I have reasons for it dealing with what I've seen in my job. I would also help YW know that finding interest and sexual desire is good and healthy and expected for both boys and girls, though it may show itself differently. I would also help them to start realizing that sex is best to be shared in marriage with a committed partner. I would get rid of the sacred/bad model that we often talk about sex and chastity in and talk about Bad, good, better, and best. I would point out that their sexual desires shouldn't outweigh their hopes and dreams and relationship with God but work with these.  

4. As YSA age I would lead group discussions and help them better understand sexual response. For women this would entail a better knowledge base of their body and that their sexual desires are good and apart of developing a relationship both before and after marriage. I would strongly emphasize that each person needs to figure out what that means for them and that it should be in consideration with a knowledge of their own weaknesses, honoring their sexual voice, humble prayer, and in concordance with where they're at in a relationship. This is where the FTSoY pamphlet and advice starts to kinda have some dissonance and a part of the reason the lessons get quieter and quieter particularly in older YSA wards. The guidelines aren't fitting anymore....not as well. So a lot of behavior except for the blatant crossing of the LoC goes underground. There are still really really innocent couples out there. Yes. But it's not necessarily better and they're not super common. For engaged couples I would love for the discussions around sex to be very very very frank. I would like to have them understand, particularly if they're on the very innocent end and/or have dated a short period of time that they need not have sex on their wedding night. That they can take their time in better understanding their sexual responses together and to learn together both with experiencing and reading the "best books" to gain knowledge about things. For any couple I would note taking your time, to not focus on performance or sexual achievements, but understanding each other, learning to share and know your and each other's bodies, to find what works not just for one partner but for both, and to have fun. I would hope that the basics of knowing oneself and practicing sexual voice had begun and was promoted well before this (in steps 1-3). 

5. I would have frank discussions with adults about talking about sex with their children and that this is an important knowledge. It's with them that I would be really frank about the consequences of not doing so. And how moroni 9:9 can take effect in sexual assualts. I would have a lot of the discussions I'm having in my office all the time in larger adult groups to help better understand sexuality and avoid sexual rutts. If this is truly a sacrament and command I would hope that we would do our best to work to treasure sexuality in all it's forms....from a hand hold to intercourse, from a first crush to an eternal partner. That it's journey would be treated with sacredness. That men may have guidance and wisdom in developing means to listen to their partners and better sources of knowledge on sex than pornography and friends. That women would embrace their individual sexuality, have room to know it, and learn to voice themselves. How to maintain sexuality when problems arise. That we could better fortify our children and younger generations to know their bodies and have the tools to protect their bodies and safety when others try to take advantage or inappropriate material is introduced. I would hope that as we talk more openly, mercifully, and knowledgeably they amount of assualt, coercion, and heartache would also decrease. 

 

Obviously that's a tall order. So I'll just stick with my job and sporadic presentations right now and work from there. 

 

With luv,

BD

 

These are all good ideas, but whenever I try to talk about this subject with my teen-agers, they tell me they don't want to hear about it, and look at me like I'm weird. Long before I can get to that kind of detail.

[Bobbieaware]

On September 3, 2016 at 4:26 PM, waveslider said:

It isn't a personal desire to use a scripture but rather a desire to sustain what the church leaders have authorized for the use of teaching such principles. As for the word, "virginity," sorry I am human too and assumed that by them being daughters who had virtue and chastity, and therefore probably weren't married, that they by default would also be virgins. Perhaps in our personal desire to hide things from someone because we think it might hurt them, that instead we still allowed them to see it and explained that it doesn't mean that these daughters weren't worthy anymore, only that they had been deprived of something that is obviously more valuable than the lives of their loved ones. Perhaps we should ponder and pray and find out why these things are so valuable, instead of simply not understanding it's true importance. Instead of taking a consensus on which scriptures should be cut out of lesson material, we should instead sustain our leaders who have access to revelation for these types of things and have deemed it a necessary scripture to include. We should try and prayerfully find out why as we ponder and study it, instead of just complaining in our ignorance of why it was included in the first place. Just my two cents worth anyway.

You are out of line. Do not judge another poster's worthiness and do not preach to them. Read the board guidelines before you proceed.  This is a message board not Sunday School. Next time it will be a thread ban.

It has always been perfectly obvious to me the reason why the modern leaders of the Church have often used Moroni 9:9 when discussing sexual purity is because the verse says that chastity and virtue are the MOST DEAR AND PRECIOUS possessions human beings can have. When quoting this verse, the lleaders were and are simply trying to drive home the point to the youth of the Church that sexual purity is most DEAR AND PRECIOUS to God, and for that reason it should also be most DEAR AND PRECIOUS to them. This, too, was Mormon's point of intent intent when writing that verse, and the modern leaders of the Church have been inspired to repeatedly use the verse because in all of scripture it is the one verse that speaks most clearly to the great importance of maintaining sexual purity. Simple as that. 

Since you are new here, you should understand that this board is becoming more and more a place where folks of all stripes and points of view come to criticize the leaders of the Church for alleged past improprieties, lack of wisdom, and lack of spiritual sensitivity and insight. So to keep yourself from getting in trouble in the future, you need to know the leaders of the Church are fair game on this board when it comes to criticism -- constructive or otherwise -- but we are not allowed to question the spiritual sensitivity and insight of fellow posters.I know such a policy can seem strange and unfair, but it is what it is. The problem is that if fellow posters became fair game, the board would soon descend into an acrimonious hate-fest.  

Stay on topic and stop complaining.  Don't hijack a thread to complain about the board rules or moderation.

[Calm]

Most precious possession:

https://www.lds.org/church/news/the-most-precious-possessions?lang=eng&_r=1

Quote

I remember explaining to my children that the most precious possession that this particular family had was their humility and their faith in the Savior Jesus Christ. That was what motivated them to live in righteousness.

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-david-o-mckay/chapter-17?lang=eng

Quote

A testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ is the most sacred, the most precious gift in our lives, obtained only by adherence to the principles of the gospel, not by following the paths of the world

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2006/10/the-power-of-a-personal-testimony?lang=eng

Quote

A testimony is a most precious possession because it is not acquired by logic or reason alone, it cannot be purchased with earthly possessions, and it cannot be given as a present or inherited from our ancestors.

https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-teacher-resource-manual/3-nephi-15-18?lang=eng

Quote

Ask students: What do you believe is the most precious possession we can have in mortality? Discuss their answers. Share the following statement by Elder Dallin H. Oaks: “To have the continuous companionship of the Holy Ghost is the most precious possession we can have in mortality” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1998, 50; or Ensign, Nov. 1998, 38).

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1976/01/the-first-step-was-the-hardest?lang=eng

Quote

She was thanking me for something she could only give herself, thanking me, when she had given me the greatest gift I could ever hope to receive—her acceptance of my most precious possession, the gospel of Jesus Christ.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1979/10/send-missionaries-from-every-nation?lang=eng&clang=ase

Quote

I was lonesome and depressed, for I had lost my most precious possession—my family.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/10/what-shall-a-man-give-in-exchange-for-his-soul?lang=eng&_r=1

Quote

On a recent trip to Nicaragua, I noticed a plaque in the modest home of a family we visited. It read, “My testimony is my most precious possession.” So it is with me. My testimony is my soul’s treasure, and in the integrity of my heart, I leave you my witness that this church is God’s true Church, that our Savior stands at its head and directs it through His chosen prophet. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Some more:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/04/closing-remarks?lang=eng

Quote

May there be peace and harmony in your homes. Husbands, love and treasure your wives. They are your most precious possessions. Wives, encourage and pray for your husbands.

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-david-o-mckay/chapter-16?lang=eng

Quote

Our most precious possessions, our treasures of eternity, are our children. These merit and should receive our greatest and our most constant care and guidance. …

https://www.lds.org/church/news/viewpoint-testimony-is-precious-possession-greatest-gift?lang=eng

Quote

In the context of the Church, a testimony is a sure witness of the gospel of Jesus Christ that comes by revelation through the Holy Ghost. It is one of a member’s most precious possessions.

Gone through two google pages and nothing on chastity and virtue yet....

[Calm]

In fact, none of the references for the 3 pages of google hits for "most precious possessions" on lds.org listed chastity or virtue, though there were 4 references to the same exact quote in the four pages (meaning abt 40 hits) for "sexual purity" being linked to "most precious possession", but testimony, the gospel and the family blew it out of the water imo in number of other hits.

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

On September 3, 2016 at 7:23 PM, Rain said:

I like innocense better, but I agree it still has a guilt association. Naivity comes to mind,  but it doesn't work well for me for some reason.  I don't know.  

The two definitions of innocence I provided have no connotation of guilt. To rob a young person of his/her innocence is a serious sin for which Jesus prescribed a harsh penalty. He did not condemn the one who was offended. Neither should we.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[bcuzbcuz]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

1. In fact, none of the references for the 3 pages of google hits for "most precious possessions" on lds.org listed chastity or virtue, though there were 4 references to the same exact quote in the four pages (meaning abt 40 hits) for "sexual purity" being linked to "most precious possession", but testimony, the gospel and the family blew it out of the water imo in number of other hits.

 

Not sure what your point is, but it sounds like number of internet hits determines value in policy. 

But aren't factors, like chastity and virtue, once established for a person, aren't issues that are continuously revisited? A testimony takes work to establish, chastity doesn't, it just needs to be maintained. Living the gospel takes work, conscious thoughts about daily decisions. Chastity can be destroyed but not constructed. Family life is a daily construct and requires a balancing act of rules, decisions, mercy and love. Virtue can be crushed instantly by a careless, thoughtless action. A family can survuve irrational actions and be rebuilt, and trust renewed. 

[BlueDreams]

8 hours ago, Danzo said:

These are all good ideas, but whenever I try to talk about this subject with my teen-agers, they tell me they don't want to hear about it, and look at me like I'm weird. Long before I can get to that kind of detail.

Lol, yeah. I think the most succesful families I've seen talk about it had it as just general parts of their concersation. There would be more serious discussion from time to time. And then there would be laughter, side comments, and random quirky questions answered. Starting pretty young. As I mentioned my one friend's been working since age 3-4 to make sure bodies are not a taboo topic. My parents weren't necessarily the best at it. The serious talks always came after I'd figured it out in school (in VA). But at the same time, jokes, side comments, etc made it clear my parents were sexual. 

My siblings are a lot younger than me and doing their teen things. Cracking into this topic with them can be difficult. Oddly though, doing so with one of my brothers, who's been struggling with porn, opened up our relationship a lot period. The first conversation was awkward because I'd guesSed from a conversation from my mom and he was a little peeved that i knew. But since then, He'll text or call me at least once a week. So it has it's benefits . 

 

Even if they don't open up, knowing that you want to talk about it and indicating that you know things, may come in handy when they're adults and have more pressing questions too.

 

with luv,

BD

[gopher]

I agree the analogies used to teach chastity are stupid and wrong.  But I don't agree that we have a "terrible view of women in the church" and that we teach girls "their place" early on.  I realize the OP tried to walk it back a bit, but I think the evidence is more convincing that the church and LDS families are producing outstanding young women.  For example, the past few years I've worked with dozens of 19-20 year old Sister missionaries (mostly from Utah!) and I see overwhelming evidence that our young women are confident, strong, independent, virtuous, faithful, etc.  Not the kind of characteristics I would expect to see in young women who have been viewed terribly or taught poorly by their church leaders.

Maybe I'm more sensitive to hyperbole since we are in an election cycle, so forgive me if I sound defensive.

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

I agree the analogies used to teach chastity are stupid and wrong.  But I don't agree that we have a "terrible view of women in the church" and that we teach girls "their place" early on.  I realize the OP tried to walk it back a bit, but I think the evidence is more convincing that the church and LDS families are producing outstanding young women.  For example, the past few years I've worked with dozens of 19-20 year old Sister missionaries (mostly from Utah!) and I see overwhelming evidence that our young women are confident, strong, independent, virtuous, faithful, etc.  Not the kind of characteristics I would expect to see in young women who have been viewed terribly or taught poorly by their church leaders.

Maybe I'm more sensitive to hyperbole since we are in an election cycle, so forgive me if I sound defensive.

The ones who have suffered harm by their church leaders don't usually end up on missions or active.  I guess if you don't see them, they must not exhist.

Sorry if I sound defensive but I spent last night hearing stories from three young women whose experiences with these lessons left deep scars.  Two hate the church and one is coming back.  She had to relearn correct doctrine after internalizing that since she had been molested in her youth that didn't mean she was "ruined" and unworthy of the temple.   That is how her understanding of these lessons was internalized when she was in young women's.

Edited September 4, 2016 by bsjkki

[Calm]

14 hours ago, Danzo said:

These are all good ideas, but whenever I try to talk about this subject with my teen-agers, they tell me they don't want to hear about it, and look at me like I'm weird. Long before I can get to that kind of detail.

And what would you do if they acted that way with your instructions about the car or taking off on a trip with a friend's family?

add-on:. I do think it is very important to not act the bulldozer, but rather I am suggesting one keeps trying to find what works, never giving up because one knows the consequences.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

But I don't agree that we have a "terrible view of women in the church" and that we teach girls "their place" early on.

There is, imo, nothing wrong with teaching girls their place as women in the Church and world as long as that place isn't in the corner keeping her mouth shut until wanted, but out there in the middle of life preparing and using her god given gifts and deciding for herself how she wants to act to best reach her 'place' (which will be both unique to her and also shared with billions of other good women).  And the earlier she learns this the better for the girl.  I believe we need to work harder at teaching both young women and young men their place in life so they can be even more confident about stepping out and doing good, for themselves as well as others, and especially finding it so they can approach their life from a position of strength.  

The blog we have been discussing in another thread, The Art of Manliness, is all about trying to figure out and help grown men know their place in the world (and sometimes it does it well and sometimes not).  A lot of people are struggling in life because they are lost because they weren't taught what their place is.  And unfortunately many, many others are struggling because they were taught or understood the lesson improperly.  We can't be dismissive of these souls in the Church just because there are others who have been successful in their search, not if we want to be the proper stewards of our own places God gave us.  We are meant to be eternally progressing and I see no reason not to apply that to how we choose to teach others in the Church as well as our own progress.  Recognizing where missteps have been made and exploring corrections must be part of that progress.  It won't just happen because of desire and time passing.

 If you have a problem with the word place due to some of its baggage, then substitute the word role or mission.

[CV75]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

it may be possible I agree with you.  (I generally do) Your exact meaning combined with your previous post isn't jumping out at me, I will have to read it later when other things are not occupying my mind.

Sorry I’m not being clear!

An effort to distill my exact meaning: chastity and virtue refer to both temporal and spiritual states (1 Nephi 15:32; 22:3). The Lord invites us to integrate the temporal and the spiritual (Mosiah 2:41). He doesn’t want anyone to suffer a body abused by sin. Moroni 9:9 shows that it is as much an abomination to rob another of agency over the flesh as it is to misuse one’s own flesh. In the case where sex is involved, the sinner is spiritually bankrupt (of ruined chastity and virtue), and the victim is bodily and psychically bankrupt (ruined, broken). The misguided analogies referred to in this thread objectivize the body and thus emphasize the temporal aspect of an intact body and heart while ignoring the Atonement which heals both the abused body and the repentant spirit.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Not sure what your point is, but it sounds like number of internet hits determines value in policy. 

My point was in response to Bobbieaware's claim that LDS leaders are teaching that sexual purity is most precious to God and should be to us when the reality is that there are many other things that are given the label most precious possessions we can have.  I suspect that if you were to ask a leader what was their most precious possession, over 9 times out of ten it would be testimony, gospel, or family or some variation of those.  Otoh, if you ask them what chastity or sexual purity is, many might say "our most dear and precious possession" because their mind goes to the scripture first.  I would be very interested in what any might say if you then asked them what about your testimony, your family, the gospel? (Sincerely, not in a gotcha way) Surely without the latter all the effort to maintain sexual purity is meaningless?  I have no clue what they might say then.

For me it is becoming much like how the new and everlasting covenant is spoken of in scripture.  Many things are called "an everlasting covenant" or "a new and everlasting covenant" or "the new and everlasting covenant" including the gospel.  I think the gospel is indeed our most dear and precious possession and all that pertains to it can be placed in that category as well because we need them all to receive the fullness of it and in each moment that part of the gospel that will bring us closer to God, whether our testimony, our love and care for our family and their love and care for us, our desire for and earnest efforts to purify ourselves spiritually, mentally, and physically including sexual purity...all will be our most treasured blessings in the moments we need them most.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

9 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

But aren't factors, like chastity and virtue, once established for a person, aren't issues that are continuously revisited? A testimony takes work to establish, chastity doesn't, it just needs to be maintained. Living the gospel takes work, conscious thoughts about daily decisions. Chastity can be destroyed but not constructed. Family life is a daily construct and requires a balancing act of rules, decisions, mercy and love. Virtue can be crushed instantly by a careless, thoughtless action. A family can survuve irrational actions and be rebuilt, and trust renewed. 

I think chastity can be a result of innocence, one is chaste simply because one has little or no knowledge about other choices.  This is how we all start out.  That state of being is pretty much destroyed for anyone who has ever lived I suspect except perhaps for those who remain children all their lives mentally.  

At some point for the rest of us though chastity becomes a conscious choice and is not only one's behaviour, but one's attitude and therefore I would say it can indeed be constructed.

I don't understand why you think chastity and virtue can be destroyed, but not constructed...unless perhaps you are equating them with a physical state, virginity or exclusive sexual contact (mental, physical and emotional) with one's spouse?

Edited September 4, 2016 by Calm

[gopher]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

The ones who have suffered harm by their church leaders don't usually end up on missions or active.  I guess if you don't see them, they must not exhist.

Sorry if I sound defensive but I spent last night hearing stories from three young women whose experiences with these lessons left deep scars.  Two hate the church and one is coming back.  She had to relearn correct doctrine after internalizing that since she had been molested in her youth that didn't mean she was "ruined" and unworthy of the temple.   That is how her understanding of these lessons was internalized when she was in young women's.

I don't dispute some church leaders have harmed young women leaving scars.  And, yes, I have seen them and I know they exist.  My comments were only directed to the claims made in the first few sentences of the OP.  I just wanted to add a positive observation about the young women in the church I have associated with in the past few years to counter those claims.  

[gopher]

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is, imo, nothing wrong with teaching girls their place as women in the Church and world as long as that place isn't in the corner keeping her mouth shut until wanted

I interpreted the use of "their place" in the OP to mean the second part of your sentence.   I agree it can also have a more positive meaning.

[Calm]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The two definitions of guilt I provided have no connotation of guilt. To rob a young person of his/her innocence is a serious sin for which Jesus prescribed a harsh penalty. He did not condemn the one who was offended. Neither should we.

"Two definitions of guilt"

I think you mean innocence.

We know in these types of discussions we mean "innocence" that is not the opposite of guilt, but is the opposite of awareness of evil, but someone who isn't sure what we mean, who is in fact innocent (ie, is not aware of what evils are out there that can destroy that innocence) could be confused because of the strong association of "innocence" with guilt in its other meaning of blamelessness, especially when we wish to be protective of their innocence and not be too explicit about what we are talking about.  They may end up filling up the gaps of information with their own constructions if we aren't careful (and unfortunately sometimes even if we are).

[bsjkki]

28 minutes ago, gopher said:

I don't dispute some church leaders have harmed young women leaving scars.  And, yes, I have seen them and I know they exist.  My comments were only directed to the claims made in the first few sentences of the OP.  I just wanted to add a positive observation about the young women in the church I have associated with in the past few years to counter those claims.  

I agree the church does produce some amazing women.  I just fear those that believe all is well.  There is room for improvement and when a problem is identified, changes should be made.  Thank you for clarifying your position.

[gopher]

24 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I agree the church does produce some amazing women.  I just fear those that believe all is well.  There is room for improvement and when a problem is identified, changes should be made.  Thank you for clarifying your position.

And I'm glad you were available to listen to the three young women who had past issues in the church.  I think we can help our young women (and young men) avoid a lot of heartache if we are there to listen to them.  There are enough negative messages our youth get outside the church, I hope we don't add to them by using object lessons like the ones discussed in the thread.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

I interpreted the use of "their place" in the OP to mean the second part of your sentence.   I agree it can also have a more positive meaning.

I suspect that is how he was using it too.

I was debating making that post when he said it.  Decided to go for it because I think we can be too reactive and remove all guidance because of fear of putting on limits when the reality is that we need to give very strong guidance if we wish to help a person truly live a no limit life in regards to their potential to seek out and become like their heavenly parents.

[Bobbieaware]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

My point was in response to Bobbieaware's claim that LDS leaders are teaching that sexual purity is most precious to God and should be to us when the reality is that there are many other things that are given the label most precious possessions we can have.  I suspect that if you were to ask a leader what was their most precious possession, over 9 times out of ten it would be testimony, gospel, or family or some variation of those.  Otoh, if you ask them what chastity or sexual purity is, many might say "our most dear and precious possession" because their mind goes to the scripture first.  I would be very interested in what any might say if you then asked them what about your testimony, your family, the gospel? (Sincerely, not in a gotcha way) Surely without the latter all the effort to maintain sexual purity is meaningless?  I have no clue what they might say then.

For me it is becoming much like how the new and everlasting covenant is spoken of in scripture.  Many things are called "an everlasting covenant" or "a new and everlasting covenant" or "the new and everlasting covenant" including the gospel.  I think the gospel is indeed our most dear and precious possession and all that pertains to it can be placed in that category as well because we need them all to receive the fullness of it and in each moment that part of the gospel that will bring us closer to God, whether our testimony, our love and care for our family and their love and care for us, our desire for and earnest efforts to purify ourselves spiritually, mentally, and physically including sexual purity...all will be our most treasured blessings in the moments we need them most.

Isn't it obvious the reason why Mormon (with Moroni's obvious approval) testifies that chastity and virtue are most DEAR AND PRECIOUS is because chastity and virtue are the sentinels, as it were, that stand valiantly at the gate to protect the sacred power to bring forth human life in the Lord's own ordained way? If sex was nothing more than a way to experience physical pleasure, and if the power to bring forth human life was not in any way connected to that act of pleasure, then chastity (if it could still be called that) would be nothing more an exercise in self-control, like the ability to avoid eating too much chocolate. But because chastity IS inextricably and unavoidably connected to the most sacred power God has given to man, let's not pretend it isn't as dear and precious as two prophets of the Lord -- plus many modern prophets who have approvingly quoted their inspired words -- say it is. Chastity and virtue are most dear and precious because the power to bring forth sacred human life is most dear and precious.

 

Edited September 5, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Calm]

On September 4, 28 Heisei at 4:12 PM, Bobbieaware said:

Isn't it obvious the reason why Mormon (with Moroni's obvious approval) testifies that chastity and virtue are most DEAR AND PRECIOUS is because chastity and virtue are the sentinels, as it were, that stand valiantly at the gate to protect the sacred power to bring forth human life in the Lord's own ordained way? If sex was nothing more than a way to experience physical pleasure, and if the power to bring forth human life was not in any way connected to that act of pleasure, then chastity (if it could still be called that) would be nothing more an exercise in self-control, like the ability to avoid eating too much chocolate. But because chastity IS inextricably and unavoidably connected to the most sacred power God has given to man, let's not pretend it isn't as dear and precious as two prophets of the Lord -- plus many modern prophets who have approvingly quoted their inspired words -- say it is. Chastity and virtue are most dear and precious because the power to bring forth sacred human life is most dear and precious.

 

And that response completely ignores all the references church leaders are teaching about testimony as our most precious possession, our family as our most precious possessions, the gospel as our most precious possession (seriously, this last one wins for me, we can be as sexually pure as a new born babe and it would be of no spiritual, eternal value without the gospel).  Not saying chastity isn't one of the highest blessings we can choose, just saying not all or even most church leaders are teaching it is our most precious possession and so perhaps we should start looking at chastity as part of our most dear and precious possession, the gospel, rather than something that stands by itself at the pinnacle of our existense.

[Calm]

Came across this video in the Chastity section of the LDS Media Library, there are a couple of others I might post.  Just short ones, but I think this one is quite well done.  It features two young women whose only spoken reason for maintaining sexual purity is to keep the Spirit close by and the companionship of the Spirit lets them know how God values them, they have grown in valuing themselves and in having confidence in standing up for theselves as well.  The blessing of obedience is very much presented as in the here and now.  And nothing about being the guardians of anyone else's chastity that I recall.  I am curious of others' reaction.

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2012-10-010-standards-sexual-purity-and-modesty-true-confidence?category=topics/chastity&lang=eng

[bcuzbcuz]

On 4 September 2016 at 5:03 AM, BlueDreams said:

Well if i had it my way there would be a massive cultural/spiritual overhaul to how we handle both chastity lessons and teaching about sexuality in general. How we teach YW's between 12-18 is only a part of the problem. The overall context that I remember most is being taught to not do basically anything beyond "chaste" kisses, with relatively vague discussion as to what not to do, and even more insistence to be cautious. The way we talk about it, it's like our sexuality will sneak up on us when we least suspect it... like an enemy in the night or the most blessed experience you've ever had. Most people do not get good sex ed...anywhere (Talking US in particular. Other countries differ). Not at home, not at school (particularly in certain states and particularly if their parents decide they don't want them in it and can opt out), certainly not at church. What's given them is colloquial wisdom. Where we learn how to do sexuality is then left from social/secular outlets which give just as a distorted view. So if someone was extra cautious to not have that also in their life, they can really be SUPER innocent and even skittish or repulsed by sexual behavior. I still find it funny that somehow, I, a physical virgin, will know more about sexuality than a young married couple. There's something wrong with that.  

We may be in the same boat in some ways, but I talk about myself and my sexuality very differently. For one I believe I'm sexually expressing and that I have been developing sexual expression since I was young (without the word to describe it). Like any other part of my body, I'm learning how to treat it with respect and have it best serve me and my beliefs. Since I'm LDS I do not express in certain ways but I do express in others. My personal journey will differ from another but it's made with God, thinking things through, knowing my limits, and what feels like a correct expression given the time and place. It is not repressed, pushed down, or placed to the side for a later day. It is respected, known and understood, and a part of my day-to-day. I do not hide it and I make my decisions about it in a relationship with thought and care.

So in my world, for what I would like to see:

1. at a young age (think 4-6) we would teach about body parts, their proper names, that their bodies are temples and special, and that they have a right to tell people not to touch them. The concept Good touch/bad touch can be introduced. And I would coach them on how to share when someone may have touched them wrong to someone older who can help them. 

2. At 8-12, I would start teaching them about what changes will happen in both male and female bodies. With pictures. Often children are curious about the body and that curiosity gets hijacked by inappropriate pictures and shame. I would want the human body to not be a mystery or a source of anxiety.  In my personal home, I would like it to be similar to a friend of mine who uses proper names and answers any questions without a lot of squirming, helping them understand differences. It's at this age that I would also want children to learn about what pornography is and what to do if exposed to it. This would also entail parent discussions and helping them better understand the issue and how to talk to kids about it. Most cases that I have where there's porn addiction were exposed sometime at this age. 

3. At 12-18 I would teach them about healthy ways to sexually express and learning to respect and bridle their hormones so that they work for them. I would specifically explain terms and behaviors. And would lead a discussion for what would be best for them to have a healthy experience both with beginning to explore crushes and to have it be done with forethought and not impulse. I wouldn't really change dating or physical boundaries found in FTSoY because it works pretty well for teens. But I would probably destigmatize masturbation at least a little (not porn). This is probably my most unorthodox view and I know it. I have reasons for it dealing with what I've seen in my job. I would also help YW know that finding interest and sexual desire is good and healthy and expected for both boys and girls, though it may show itself differently. I would also help them to start realizing that sex is best to be shared in marriage with a committed partner. I would get rid of the sacred/bad model that we often talk about sex and chastity in and talk about Bad, good, better, and best. I would point out that their sexual desires shouldn't outweigh their hopes and dreams and relationship with God but work with these.  

4. As YSA age I would lead group discussions and help them better understand sexual response. For women this would entail a better knowledge base of their body and that their sexual desires are good and apart of developing a relationship both before and after marriage. I would strongly emphasize that each person needs to figure out what that means for them and that it should be in consideration with a knowledge of their own weaknesses, honoring their sexual voice, humble prayer, and in concordance with where they're at in a relationship. This is where the FTSoY pamphlet and advice starts to kinda have some dissonance and a part of the reason the lessons get quieter and quieter particularly in older YSA wards. The guidelines aren't fitting anymore....not as well. So a lot of behavior except for the blatant crossing of the LoC goes underground. There are still really really innocent couples out there. Yes. But it's not necessarily better and they're not super common. For engaged couples I would love for the discussions around sex to be very very very frank. I would like to have them understand, particularly if they're on the very innocent end and/or have dated a short period of time that they need not have sex on their wedding night. That they can take their time in better understanding their sexual responses together and to learn together both with experiencing and reading the "best books" to gain knowledge about things. For any couple I would note taking your time, to not focus on performance or sexual achievements, but understanding each other, learning to share and know your and each other's bodies, to find what works not just for one partner but for both, and to have fun. I would hope that the basics of knowing oneself and practicing sexual voice had begun and was promoted well before this (in steps 1-3). 

5. I would have frank discussions with adults about talking about sex with their children and that this is an important knowledge. It's with them that I would be really frank about the consequences of not doing so. And how moroni 9:9 can take effect in sexual assualts. I would have a lot of the discussions I'm having in my office all the time in larger adult groups to help better understand sexuality and avoid sexual rutts. If this is truly a sacrament and command I would hope that we would do our best to work to treasure sexuality in all it's forms....from a hand hold to intercourse, from a first crush to an eternal partner. That it's journey would be treated with sacredness. That men may have guidance and wisdom in developing means to listen to their partners and better sources of knowledge on sex than pornography and friends. That women would embrace their individual sexuality, have room to know it, and learn to voice themselves. How to maintain sexuality when problems arise. That we could better fortify our children and younger generations to know their bodies and have the tools to protect their bodies and safety when others try to take advantage or inappropriate material is introduced. I would hope that as we talk more openly, mercifully, and knowledgeably they amount of assualt, coercion, and heartache would also decrease. 

 

Obviously that's a tall order. So I'll just stick with my job and sporadic presentations right now and work from there. 

 

With luv,

BD

 

I've never agreed more with your posts than this one. Your comments are well thought through and tremendously insightful. My one comment (and I may have missed it in your post) is the selection of the teachers for each of your time line markers. A good, knowledgable, sensitive teacher who has experiences that have provided more than a singular point of view would be essential.

Bishops (quotes on this post have given the statement that the loss of virginity outside of a marraige is one step shy of killing someone) must be given guidelines that steer their selection for choosing good and qualified teachers.