Girls raised in the Church

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bcuzbcuz said:

 

Is the idea to state something so outrageously frightening to a son or daughter, that they, in fear that you actually mean what you're saying, will choose chastity? Sort of like, If a person can't choose chastity for the right reasons, then scare the crap out of them with a terrifying alternative?

Talk to the Marine Corp.  Find out why they use the "death before dishonor" slogan.  Probably much the same thing going on.

[bcuzbcuz]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Talk to the Marine Corp.  Find out why they use the "death before dishonor" slogan.  Probably much the same thing going on.

Marine corp? Are you serious? Are you a parent? Do you use a marine training journal as a parenting guide?

"Death before dishonour" Aren't you talking about situations that involve weapons and where any person who is considered to be enabling the enemy can face jail time? Are you suggesting that children who disobey the church or their parents should be considered along the same lines, to face jail time? Or death?

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Marine corp? Are you serious? Are you a parent? Do you use a marine training journal as a parenting guide?

"Death before dishonour" Aren't you talking about situations that involve weapons and where any person who is considered to be enabling the enemy can face jail time? Are you suggesting that children who disobey the church or their parents should be considered along the same lines, to face jail time? Or death?

I don't like to speak for Calm, but I think she in no way believes that. 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I'm happy that you have access and that you post from such conference speeches. They are so much more informative than the endless blathering by some who try to justify such filthy and confusing interpretations of doctrine. 

To say to a son or daughter: "Better die chaste than live unchaste." "We'd rather take you home in a casket than have you come home unclean"

And to say such things out loud, like there was some kind of kind of pride in saying such blithering idiocy? 

Such nonsense is on the level of what I heard in a meeting from a mother saying to her overactive young son, "If you don't sit still, I'll rip off your arm and hit you with the wet end." How about, "If you don't stop hitting your sister, I'll beat you with a stick".

Would it be appropriate for a man to say to his wife, "If you're ever unfaithful to me, I'll kill you."? Certainly, the Old Testament would confirm such behaviour.

Is the idea to state something so outrageously frightening to a son or daughter, that they, in fear that you actually mean what you're saying, will choose chastity? Sort of like, If a person can't choose chastity for the right reasons, then scare the crap out of them with a terrifying alternative?

Thanks, it's with the help of google. 

And agree with the last paragraph, I think that is what these leaders were doing. Trying to scare them, but along with the scare they may have done a lot of harm. Especially with someone who broke the rules, and then thinks they are unfit to live. The LDS.org sight shouldn't have it online. These talks. 

Edited September 9, 2016 by Tacenda

[Jeanne]

Wouldn't it be nice if one made a mistake..go through repentance ..without the fear of God.  How many young people are scared to death to meet up with a bishop because of this kind of fear.  I really don't think God wants us to fear him...but to be able to go to him with acceptance, forgiveness and love. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Wouldn't it be nice if one made a mistake..go through repentance ..without the fear of God.  How many young people are scared to death to meet up with a bishop because of this kind of fear.  I really don't think God wants us to fear him...but to be able to go to him with acceptance, forgiveness and love.

- Proverbs 9: 10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
- Acts 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judæa and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
- 2 Nephi 21:2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
- Proverbs 16;6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.
- Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
- D&C 133:38 And the servants of God shall go forth, saying with a loud voice: Fear God and give glory to him, for the hour of his judgment is come;

It might be nice to repent without fear of God, but that doesn't make it correct principle.

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

- Proverbs 9: 10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
- Acts 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judæa and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
- 2 Nephi 21:2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
- Proverbs 16;6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.
- Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
- D&C 133:38 And the servants of God shall go forth, saying with a loud voice: Fear God and give glory to him, for the hour of his judgment is come;

It might be nice to repent without fear of God, but that doesn't make it correct principle.

Perhaps my interpretation of fear is skewed by the fear of my mortal father..depressing.  Where is the love?

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Perhaps my interpretation of fear is skewed by the fear of my mortal father..depressing.  Where is the love?

The love is in atonement and repentance.
For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son Jesus Christ.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Marine corp? Are you serious? Are you a parent? Do you use a marine training journal as a parenting guide?

"Death before dishonour" Aren't you talking about situations that involve weapons and where any person who is considered to be enabling the enemy can face jail time? Are you suggesting that children who disobey the church or their parents should be considered along the same lines, to face jail time? Or death?

You kind of totally missed my point.  I am talking about why people use the motivations, not whether or not it is appropriate.  I assume the MC uses it because they want to impress upon its members a sense of importance about their commitments.  I see parents want to do the same.  I have no clue whether or not it is wisdom for the MC, I don't see it as wisdom to apply it to everything in 

ice that is important.  Sometimes dishonor can only be avoided by living, probably a lot more times than death is required.  Using cliches as teaching one tends to oversimplify life to the point of making it more complicated and confusing rather than clear and easy.

[Jeanne]

16 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The love is in atonement and repentance.
For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son Jesus Christ.

One of my favorite scriptures..doesn't mention fear.  I will leave you to it..just down today.

[bcuzbcuz]

23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

- Proverbs 9: 10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
- Acts 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judæa and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
- 2 Nephi 21:2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
- Proverbs 16;6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.
- Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
- D&C 133:38 And the servants of God shall go forth, saying with a loud voice: Fear God and give glory to him, for the hour of his judgment is come;

It might be nice to repent without fear of God, but that doesn't make it correct principle.

I'm well aware of the scriptures that cover the idea of fear of God. There are more than 30 verses that mention fear. The idea that parents need to use fear to ensure compliance is poorly supported by current ideas about parenting, teaching and business practices. 

As a teacher and principal for the last 40 years and that I live in a country that forbids corporal punishment, I don't think your ideas of obedience through fear hold much water. And merely turning to scriptures more than 2000 years old doesn't hold water either. Explain to me, without referencing to scriptures, how fear works in parenting.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

As a teacher and principal for the last 40 years

Explain to me, without referencing to scriptures, how fear works in parenting.

I assume you are familiar with the concept of "natural consequences" as a disciplinary method.
Teach a child the consequences of their actions.  Some of those natural consequences can be pretty darned scary.

[Danzo]

15 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I'm well aware of the scriptures that cover the idea of fear of God. There are more than 30 verses that mention fear. The idea that parents need to use fear to ensure compliance is poorly supported by current ideas about parenting, teaching and business practices. 

As a teacher and principal for the last 40 years and that I live in a country that forbids corporal punishment, I don't think your ideas of obedience through fear hold much water. And merely turning to scriptures more than 2000 years old doesn't hold water either. Explain to me, without referencing to scriptures, how fear works in parenting.

to my 6 year old: Don't play in the street or you will be struck by a car.

You use fear to keep them from playing in the street, because if you let them just suffer the natural consequences, there just might not be an opportunity to learn.

[Tacenda]

46 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

One of my favorite scriptures..doesn't mention fear.  I will leave you to it..just down today.

Hope your day gets better!! 

[Tacenda]

28 minutes ago, Danzo said:

to my 6 year old: Don't play in the street or you will be struck by a car.

You use fear to keep them from playing in the street, because if you let them just suffer the natural consequences, there just might not be an opportunity to learn.

But are you saying they should lose their life if they don't obey the rule not to run in the road?

[Jeanne]

28 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Hope your day gets better!! 

Thank you!  You are a good friend.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I assume you are familiar with the concept of "natural consequences" as a disciplinary method.
Teach a child the consequences of their actions.  Some of those natural consequences can be pretty darned scary.

True. But, to be fair, it's the unglossy truth that does the convincing, once the risks and perceived benefits are compared. Obedience thru fear of wrath of Mom is much different than obedience thru legit fear of direct consequences of the action/inaction.

[Eek!]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Wouldn't it be nice if one made a mistake..go through repentance ..without the fear of God.  How many young people are scared to death to meet up with a bishop because of this kind of fear.  I really don't think God wants us to fear him...but to be able to go to him with acceptance, forgiveness and love. 

As JLHPROF pointed out, fear of God is the beginning of wisdom... however, it is ONLY the beginning!

The first and greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart.  God is not stupid, He knows that we cannot love that which we fear. Nor does He give commandments that are impossible to keep.  Therefore, the first and greatest commandment implies that the higher truth of the matter is, we have no reason to fear God.  

That doesn't mean God doesn't use fear to motivate us when we are being bone-heads (D&C 19:6-12).  Wisdom is justified of her children, so whatever it takes,  But imo the higher truth, the "good news" of the gospel, is:  There is nothing to fear; there is only work to be done.    

[bcuzbcuz]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

to my 6 year old: Don't play in the street or you will be struck by a car.

You use fear to keep them from playing in the street, because if you let them just suffer the natural consequences, there just might not be an opportunity to learn.

We were never talking about rules of chastity to govern 6 year olds. Playing in the street and living a chaste life are not even on the same playing field. When a son or daughter reaches the age when chastity becomes a question, then rules about playing the streets don't fit.

When my children reached the age where they had to decide about smoking or drinking or drugs or sexual activities, merely placing the fear of God's burning condemnation in front of them didn't fill the bill. 

If all you've got is a curse of God to keep kids in line, you've already lost the game. I can find numerous reasons why smoking, drinking, drugs or sex are not activities to engage in. Can't you?

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

True. But, to be fair, it's the unglossy truth that does the convincing, once the risks and perceived benefits are compared. Obedience thru fear of wrath of Mom is much different than obedience thru legit fear of direct consequences of the action/inaction.

I don't consider fear of God to be fear of the wrathful parent.
Because I don't consider God will ever punish us out of wrath.  I believe that where we end up in the "judgment" will be a natural result of who we have become.
And God is God because he follows and maintains law.  Fear of God is merely fear of natural consequences.

Edited September 9, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

But are you saying they should lose their life if they don't obey the rule not to run in the road?

they could lose their life from the natural consequences.

Playing in the street is a life or death situation, especially for young children.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Danzo

[Danzo]

5 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

We were never talking about rules of chastity to govern 6 year olds. Playing in the street and living a chaste life are not even on the same playing field. When a son or daughter reaches the age when chastity becomes a question, then rules about playing the streets don't fit.

When my children reached the age where they had to decide about smoking or drinking or drugs or sexual activities, merely placing the fear of God's burning condemnation in front of them didn't fill the bill. 

If all you've got is a curse of God to keep kids in line, you've already lost the game. I can find numerous reasons why smoking, drinking, drugs or sex are not activities to engage in. Can't you?

We don't teach kids that they will die if they engage in sexual activity, I am not sure what you are accusing us of.

We do, however teach our children that there are real consequences for sin.  I suspect that you don't believe in the concept of sin.  I do.

Of course there are other consequences of engaging in these activities and our children are well aware of them, but for me, loss of the spirit and separation from God are real consequences.

Each of these consequences can happen to people who have not engaged in any these sins as well (although they are much more likely for those that do engage in them)

Having a clean conscience and self respect is a real benefit, as real as any of these physical benefits and dangers you speak of.

Having the spirit in my life has been a tremendous blessing, one I want my children to enjoy.   I have felt the loss of it when I commit sins and want my children to experience this as little as possible.

Is this wrong?

 

[bcuzbcuz]

19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't consider fear of God to be fear of the wrathful parent.
Because I don't consider God will ever punish us out of wrath. 

Then you don't know your scriptures.

[Danzo]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

 Doesn't it make sense to make the manuals Spiritlessproof to the best of our abilities?

A good goal, but I think a better approach is to encourage teaching with the spirit.  Without the spirit, nothing of consequence is really learned. 

When we teach in the church we are goal is not to share facts, but to change hearts.  Without the change in the heart there is not going to be a lot of long term good.

I support your desire to update the manuals, I even agree with you that Moroni 9 is off subject (one of us should make a suggestion to the curriculum department).

It will never be enough.  

People will still be called to teach who haven't studied the manual enough.  

People will come up with lesson plans seem good in theory but fall flat.

Teachers will make errors.

The spirit will whisper ways of teaching particular individuals that might seem wrong to us here on the internet but might  be just what an individual student needs to hear to touch their heart.

Teaching the lords way will always be about connecting individual people together, about learning to hear the word of the Lord through a fallible, imperfect person.

Successful teaching will always be more about being worthy of the spirit than about having all the facts or a perfect presentation.

[JLHPROF]

24 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Then you don't know your scriptures.

Oh, yes I do.
I just interpret them the same way Joseph Smith did and see beyond the poetry.