Girls raised in the Church

[stemelbow]

I fear we continue to have a terrible view of women in the Church and thus a harmful way of teaching girls as they grow.  I don't mean to say it's all bad or bleak.  We have a Church that teaches girls from very early on, their place.  I dont' like the idea of putting limits or restrictions on anyone.  Dont' get me wrong, I'm not saying there is no opportunity for girls or women in the Church.  And I do agree there is plenty in how the Church views women and girls that is ok and good.  But ti's not perfect and we're not a perfect society. 

Elizabeth Smart recently did an interview wherein she discusses one way in which girls have been taught poorly. 

Says the piece:

Quote

She often shares, as an example of what not to teach young girls, an analogy that she learned as a young child in Sunday school: "You're like this stick of gum, and if you have sex before you're married, it's like someone chews up that piece of gum, and then when you're done, who wants a piece of gum that's already chewed up? No one." That was the first thing she thought of after Mitchell raped her on the night of her kidnapping.

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/elizabeth-smart-is-standing-up-for-rape-victimsand-tearing-down-purity-culture

Having been a boy in the church I didn't see these analogies.  I guess I slept through them. But as I got older I learned girls were be told these things and many didn't like it, nor appreciate. 

Sometimes we're not a very thoughtful bunch.  I worry about my young daughters having to go through some of the teaching in the Church.  My oldest boy is 17 and he's been through the ringer with some lessons, but I think it'll be much more difficult for my daughters.  Anyway, does anyone see value in the types of messages Elizabeth got?  I don't. 

[Storm Rider]

I missed the brochure that the Church published on the chewing gum.  Could you please point it out to me.  If by chance, the Church of Jesus Christ did not publish this brochure is it possible that the Church is not responsible?

My mother told my sisters that when you give the milk away for free no one will ever buy the cow.  Do I think my sisters were damaged by this?  Do I think that they learned something of value from this little saying of my mom's?  Yes, they did.

If virtue of any value and should we spend any time teaching that virtue has merit?  If not, should we just teach that they should take the pill every day or make sure that they use contraception as they are responding to their natural desires?

Do you think it is possible that Elizabeth Smart is not the normal experience for all young girls?  In event that another girl is kidnapped from her home and raped what do you think she should understand?  Do you see any difference between someone who is raped and someone who just as sex on Friday night with their boyfriend of the last two weeks?

How much time do you spend being anxious about make believe boogeymen?  

[Duncan]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I fear we continue to have a terrible view of women in the Church and thus a harmful way of teaching girls as they grow.  I don't mean to say it's all bad or bleak.  We have a Church that teaches girls from very early on, their place.  I dont' like the idea of putting limits or restrictions on anyone.  Dont' get me wrong, I'm not saying there is no opportunity for girls or women in the Church.  And I do agree there is plenty in how the Church views women and girls that is ok and good.  But ti's not perfect and we're not a perfect society. 

Elizabeth Smart recently did an interview wherein she discusses one way in which girls have been taught poorly. 

Says the piece:

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/elizabeth-smart-is-standing-up-for-rape-victimsand-tearing-down-purity-culture

Having been a boy in the church I didn't see these analogies.  I guess I slept through them. But as I got older I learned girls were be told these things and many didn't like it, nor appreciate. 

Sometimes we're not a very thoughtful bunch.  I worry about my young daughters having to go through some of the teaching in the Church.  My oldest boy is 17 and he's been through the ringer with some lessons, but I think it'll be much more difficult for my daughters.  Anyway, does anyone see value in the types of messages Elizabeth got?  I don't. 

I remember those analogies, we got a smashed cake and a crushed banana. I haven't been in youth since my own youth days so I can't speak to what is being said now.

[bluebell]

I was never taught those analogies but i know others were.  They are stupid.  What i thought was completely nuts was when Elizabeth recounts how she was in seminary, after her kidnapping ordeal, and the teacher taught that premarital sex was like putting nails in a board and that even though you could repent and the nails could be removed, the holes remain.

Not only is that completely not doctrinal and an affront to the mercy and truth of the Atonement, it's a horrible absolutely wretched thing to teach to a girl who was raped for nine months.

Where are these people's brains?

[Jeanne]

I had twinkies and licked cupcakes.

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I missed the brochure that the Church published on the chewing gum.  Could you please point it out to me.  If by chance, the Church of Jesus Christ did not publish this brochure is it possible that the Church is not responsible?

My mother told my sisters that when you give the milk away for free no one will ever buy the cow.  Do I think my sisters were damaged by this?  Do I think that they learned something of value from this little saying of my mom's?  Yes, they did.

If virtue of any value and should we spend any time teaching that virtue has merit?  If not, should we just teach that they should take the pill every day or make sure that they use contraception as they are responding to their natural desires?

Do you think it is possible that Elizabeth Smart is not the normal experience for all young girls?  In event that another girl is kidnapped from her home and raped what do you think she should understand?  Do you see any difference between someone who is raped and someone who just as sex on Friday night with their boyfriend of the last two weeks?

How much time do you spend being anxious about make believe boogeymen?  

That's a lot of questions put to me, Storm Rider.  You sure you want this to turn into questioning me?  I intended this to be a discussion about how we as a Church view women and teach girls.  But, I throw you a bone here and let you respond how you wish.

Quote

I missed the brochure that the Church published on the chewing gum.  Could you please point it out to me

I don't know that it came from a Church publication.  I've heard it enough from other women raised in the Church (even Duncan remembers hearing them) I figured they were used by someone.  But I'll check LDS.org for you.  I don't see anything by searching used chewing gum.  But one thing we do struggle with is we often teach each other things as if they represent Church teaching when they are not, or we hold on to old analogies and teachings and share them in teacher settings, when the Church had at some point dropped the teaching. 

Quote

If by chance, the Church of Jesus Christ did not publish this brochure is it possible that the Church is not responsible?

It's possible the Church is not responsible for any chewing gum analogies ever taught in Church?  I don't know.  I'm not sure I care at this point.  But the problem seems to remain--we need to improve our view of women. 

Quote

My mother told my sisters that when you give the milk away for free no one will ever buy the cow.  Do I think my sisters were damaged by this?  Do I think that they learned something of value from this little saying of my mom's?  Yes, they did.

This is a bit different than the message Elizabeth reported on getting.  But isn't it odd if say, your mother didn't tell you the same thing?  Sometimes I'm curious the different messages we give girls as opposed to boys is a big reason for this problem, if it be a problem (which it sounds like you might not agree with).

Quote

If virtue of any value and should we spend any time teaching that virtue has merit?  If not, should we just teach that they should take the pill every day or make sure that they use contraception as they are responding to their natural desires?

I'm just going to quote Elizabeth:

Quote

"But I also think there's another side of it that can be potentially very harmful, especially when a lot of religions teach that sexual relations are meant for marriage... It's so stressed that girls in particular tie their worth to their virginity, or, for lack of a better word, purity."

I dont' remember getting the feeling that I needed to tie my worth to my virginity.  But apparently girls did feel that.  That's not to say I didn't feel like it important to remain chaste.  I did. 

Quote

Do you think it is possible that Elizabeth Smart is not the normal experience for all young girls?  In event that another girl is kidnapped from her home and raped what do you think she should understand?  Do you see any difference between someone who is raped and someone who just as sex on Friday night with their boyfriend of the last two weeks?

Look.  I've heard the same complaints from many girls and women raised in the Church.  Elizabeth, to her credit, is in a place to put it out there for great consumption.  And she sees it worth bringing up.  I do too.  That has nothing to do with whether she represents a special case.  She, not only represents a special case but as such also sees the harm in the message for girls generally. 

Quote

How much time do you spend being anxious about make believe boogeymen?

This feels like less antipathy towards me and more towards women, like Elizabeth Smart who are smarting for the way the Church has treated women or taught girls. 

[bsjkki]

Many things are still said to girls (and boys) that are very damaging.  If I go into details, I will come off bitter and angry but we can do a lot better.  Many of these things are not written in manuals but are the unofficial "object" lesson or view of a leader or Bishop that they think is helpful but is not.  Our manuals can do better in empowering women and girls. (I discussed examples of this in previous thread.) The young women's program needs more direction to avoid a plethora of "social" activities that lack substance.  I have lost count of how many "spa" nights" my girls have gone to in Young Women's activities.  The problem with most chastity lessons is the leaders forget the atonement.  The teacher thinks they are addressing an audience that has not already screwed up so their intense 'warnings' are too late for some and they need hope, not more condemnation. The 12 at conference do this really well.  I have noticed the talks they give at conference can be heavy handed warnings but they always end with hope in the atonement.  I wish in training, this was more stressed.  The way some lessons are internalized is also very different.  What we say and what we think children hear can be two different things.  I found this blog post interesting because it is an extreme example about the "message" we mean to send is not always what is heard. I think this happens a lot in youth classes but probably not to this extreme. http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2016/08/25/random-memories-of-growing-up-a-neurotic-mormon/ I remember thinking my dad, who died a Born Again Christian, had no hope for celestial kingdom because he took the missionary discussions but didn't join.  I got this impression from a Sunday School teacher when I was 12.  I think a lot of messages sent to girls by men who don't have any idea how girls think, can be misinterpreted in ways they can not imagine. 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Many things are still said to girls (and boys) that are very damaging.  If I go into details, I will come off bitter and angry but we can do a lot better.  Many of these things are not written in manuals but are the unofficial "object" lesson or view of a leader or Bishop that they think is helpful but is not.  Our manuals can do better in empowering women and girls. (I discussed examples of this in previous thread.) The young women's program needs more direction to avoid a plethora of "social" activities that lack substance.  I have lost count of how many "spa" nights" my girls have gone to in Young Women's activities.  The problem with most chastity lessons is the leaders forget the atonement.  The teacher thinks they are addressing an audience that has not already screwed up so their intense 'warnings' are too late for some and they need hope, not more condemnation. The 12 at conference do this really well.  I have noticed the talks they give at conference can be heavy handed warnings but they always end with hope in the atonement.  I wish in training, this was more stressed.  The way some lessons are internalized is also very different.  What we say and what we think children hear can be two different things.  I found this blog post interesting because it is an extreme example about the "message" we mean to send is not always what is heard. I think this happens a lot in youth classes but probably not to this extreme. http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2016/08/25/random-memories-of-growing-up-a-neurotic-mormon/ I remember thinking my dad, who died a Born Again Christian, had no hope for celestial kingdom because he took the missionary discussions but didn't join.  I got this impression from a Sunday School teacher when I was 12.  I think a lot of messages sent to girls by men who don't have any idea how girls think, can be misinterpreted in ways they can not imagine. 

I think we focus too much on justice and not enough on mercy and when we are unsure of how God would handle something-if it's a gray area without a lot of teachings behind it-we fall on the justice side and teach that.  I have a friend who's dealing with some family issues and her bishop is awesome and speaks frequently about how it's usually much better to err on the side of mercy.  Even in really serious matters like sexual sin, he still believes that erring on the side of mercy is for the best.

[stemelbow]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was never taught those analogies but i know others were.  They are stupid.  What i thought was completely nuts was when Elizabeth recounts how she was in seminary, after her kidnapping ordeal, and the teacher taught that premarital sex was like putting nails in a board and that even though you could repent and the nails could be removed, the holes remain.

Not only is that completely not doctrinal and an affront to the mercy and truth of the Atonement, it's a horrible absolutely wretched thing to teach to a girl who was raped for nine months.

Where are these people's brains?

Thanks I completely agree.  I felt my throat swell up a little right at the point in the article you describe.  It's unbelievable someone said that knowing what she went through. 

[Storm Rider]

21 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I had twinkies and licked cupcakes.

And I will bet you didn't even share.  I honestly have no idea how I ate a twinkie back in the day.  I will still eat a honey bun every now and then to take me back to my childhood and still enjoy them.  

[smac97]

23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was never taught those analogies but i know others were.  They are stupid.  What i thought was completely nuts was when Elizabeth recounts how she was in seminary, after her kidnapping ordeal, and the teacher taught that premarital sex was like putting nails in a board and that even though you could repent and the nails could be removed, the holes remain.

Not only is that completely not doctrinal and an affront to the mercy and truth of the Atonement, it's a horrible absolutely wretched thing to teach to a girl who was raped for nine months.

Where are these people's brains?

I also read Sis. Smart's account and was appalled at these "object lessons," the metaphorical use of which is, as you say, "an affront to the mercy and truth of the Atonement."

I suspect that the people who have previously propagated such things generally have good intentions.  They want to discourage youth from experimenting in matters of sexuality, in taking an "I was just curious" approach to such things.  However, these lessons, however well-intentioned, are pretty horrible.  There are all sorts of ways we can teach the Law of Chastity to youth without resorting to such things.

Thanks,

-Smac

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think we focus too much on justice and not enough on mercy and when we are unsure of how God would handle something-if it's a gray area without a lot of teachings behind it-we fall on the justice side and teach that.  I have a friend who's dealing with some family issues and her bishop is awesome and speaks frequently about how it's usually much better to err on the side of mercy.  Even in really serious matters like sexual sin, he still believes that erring on the side of mercy is for the best.

I couldn't agree more.  

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think we focus too much on justice and not enough on mercy and when we are unsure of how God would handle something-if it's a gray area without a lot of teachings behind it-we fall on the justice side and teach that.  I have a friend who's dealing with some family issues and her bishop is awesome and speaks frequently about how it's usually much better to err on the side of mercy.  Even in really serious matters like sexual sin, he still believes that erring on the side of mercy is for the best.

Thanks.  I needed this little message, feeling a bit sad about some others right now.  I agree. 

[thatjimguy]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I missed the brochure that the Church published on the chewing gum.  Could you please point it out to me.  If by chance, the Church of Jesus Christ did not publish this brochure is it possible that the Church is not responsible?

Now I have not seen it either, and I wasn't around when this example was distributed, but I did see in my investigations a certain for youth pamphlet for men that had analogies like "little factories" and "tying a hand to the bedpost" type statements. When i read those, it's not hard to see that the chewing gum analogy could crop up. It fits the style. It also fits the style of some of The Miracle of Forgiveness as well.

Edited September 2, 2016 by thatjimguy

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I missed the brochure that the Church published on the chewing gum.  Could you please point it out to me.  If by chance, the Church of Jesus Christ did not publish this brochure is it possible that the Church is not responsible?

My mother told my sisters that when you give the milk away for free no one will ever buy the cow.  Do I think my sisters were damaged by this?  Do I think that they learned something of value from this little saying of my mom's?  Yes, they did.

If virtue of any value and should we spend any time teaching that virtue has merit?  If not, should we just teach that they should take the pill every day or make sure that they use contraception as they are responding to their natural desires?

Do you think it is possible that Elizabeth Smart is not the normal experience for all young girls?  In event that another girl is kidnapped from her home and raped what do you think she should understand?  Do you see any difference between someone who is raped and someone who just as sex on Friday night with their boyfriend of the last two weeks?

How much time do you spend being anxious about make believe boogeymen?  

This is a quote from the article "She says she knows that her teachers never meant any of this with malice, but "statistically speaking, I'm not the only girl that's ever been raped. And those kinds of analogies, they stick with people." At that time, though, she still wasn't speaking up about her own rape—and wouldn't for several more years, until she testified at the trial of her kidnappers." Many girls have unwanted sexual experiences in their teen years and these analogies and lessons are internalized in a very negative way and should never be used.  Every Bishop should be aware girls will not always have the tools necessary to frame their experience in an accurate way and what they do and say has immense, long lasting, repercussions.  Many will not be ready for years to discuss their experiences in any amount of detail.  Can you look at a classroom full of young people and know which ones have been raped, molested or abused?  Would you ever want to add to their distress?  Do you want any of  them to feel they are damaged beyond repair because they had sex, willing or not?  The fence analogy is awful--how much more powerful would it have been to take out those nails, whether self-inflicted or not, and fill the holes with wood filler and sand them down and make them disappear! That is the message of the atonement and that is the message that needs to be internalized.  We are all sinners after all. We all need hope.

 

[Buckeye]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I fear we continue to have a terrible view of women in the Church and thus a harmful way of teaching girls as they grow.  I don't mean to say it's all bad or bleak.  We have a Church that teaches girls from very early on, their place.  I dont' like the idea of putting limits or restrictions on anyone.  Dont' get me wrong, I'm not saying there is no opportunity for girls or women in the Church.  And I do agree there is plenty in how the Church views women and girls that is ok and good.  But ti's not perfect and we're not a perfect society. 

Elizabeth Smart recently did an interview wherein she discusses one way in which girls have been taught poorly. 

Says the piece:

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/elizabeth-smart-is-standing-up-for-rape-victimsand-tearing-down-purity-culture

Having been a boy in the church I didn't see these analogies.  I guess I slept through them. But as I got older I learned girls were be told these things and many didn't like it, nor appreciate. 

Sometimes we're not a very thoughtful bunch.  I worry about my young daughters having to go through some of the teaching in the Church.  My oldest boy is 17 and he's been through the ringer with some lessons, but I think it'll be much more difficult for my daughters.  Anyway, does anyone see value in the types of messages Elizabeth got?  I don't. 

 

I've heard the analogies, but only second hand. Not surprising since I was never in YW. FWIW, I detest the analogies and have no problem calling them out as exactly the crap they are. They are false doctrine, pure and simple. They undermine the atonement and Christ. 

[Jeanne]

43 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

And I will bet you didn't even share.  I honestly have no idea how I ate a twinkie back in the day.  I will still eat a honey bun every now and then to take me back to my childhood and still enjoy them.  

I think you know what I meant..so this isn't even funny.  After they have been passed around a seminary class..they are hard to take.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I was never taught those analogies but i know others were.  They are stupid.  What i thought was completely nuts was when Elizabeth recounts how she was in seminary, after her kidnapping ordeal, and the teacher taught that premarital sex was like putting nails in a board and that even though you could repent and the nails could be removed, the holes remain.

Not only is that completely not doctrinal and an affront to the mercy and truth of the Atonement, it's a horrible absolutely wretched thing to teach to a girl who was raped for nine months.

Where are these people's brains?

I haven't heard this said in the Church in many, many years, except to discredit it. It was already being strongly discredited when I was still in my youth. 

[stemelbow]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

I haven't heard this said in the Church in many, many years, except to discredit it. It was already being strongly discredited when I was still in my youth. 

It's really sad then, all the more, that they were still being used in Elizabeth's days as a youth (which wasn't that long ago).  That's a huge problem because your youth was a hundred years ago ()and we didn't get the message out in all that time.  I fear these types of messages are still found in the Church to some extent or another. 

[bsjkki]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I haven't heard this said in the Church in many, many years, except to discredit it. It was already being strongly discredited when I was still in my youth. 

I wish I could say the same.  They were taught in my youth and they were taught to my teenagers. Many harmful things have been said to my kids from leaders.  Maybe we need a strongly worded official letter about ways NOT to teach about chastity.  But, we can't even get Moroni 9:9 out of the Personal Progress book in the virtue section and it is still being used in Come Follow Me to teach the virtue and chastity lesson. 

[bcuzbcuz]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

And I will bet you didn't even share.  I honestly have no idea how I ate a twinkie back in the day.  I will still eat a honey bun every now and then to take me back to my childhood and still enjoy them.  

Are you really trying to add to the discussion or are you just steadying the ark?

[Buckeye]

34 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I wish I could say the same.  They were taught in my youth and they were taught to my teenagers. Many harmful things have been said to my kids from leaders.  Maybe we need a strongly worded official letter about ways NOT to teach about chastity.  But, we can't even get Moroni 9:9 out of the Personal Progress book in the virtue section and it is still being used in Come Follow Me to teach the virtue and chastity lesson. 

Very good points. I use Moroni 9:9 as an example of how scriptures and prophets can be well-meaning, but still get things very wrong. Conflating virtue and virginity is a prime example.

[Eek!]

I remember the comment of one LDS male relative, just returned from a mission, when he heard that Elizabeth Smart had been found alive.  I won't post it here, as I have only respect for her.  Imo there is a lot of room for improvement in what the LDS church teaches its young men and young women.  I hope the church leadership takes to heart what she has to say. 

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

This is a quote from the article "She says she knows that her teachers never meant any of this with malice, but "statistically speaking, I'm not the only girl that's ever been raped. And those kinds of analogies, they stick with people." At that time, though, she still wasn't speaking up about her own rape—and wouldn't for several more years, until she testified at the trial of her kidnappers." Many girls have unwanted sexual experiences in their teen years and these analogies and lessons are internalized in a very negative way and should never be used.  Every Bishop should be aware girls will not always have the tools necessary to frame their experience in an accurate way and what they do and say has immense, long lasting, repercussions.  Many will not be ready for years to discuss their experiences in any amount of detail.  Can you look at a classroom full of young people and know which ones have been raped, molested or abused?  Would you ever want to add to their distress?  Do you want any of  them to feel they are damaged beyond repair because they had sex, willing or not?  The fence analogy is awful--how much more powerful would it have been to take out those nails, whether self-inflicted or not, and fill the holes with wood filler and sand them down and make them disappear! That is the message of the atonement and that is the message that needs to be internalized.  We are all sinners after all. We all need hope.

 

I know humans and we all can say things that are inappropriate at times - everyone has done it and it seems strange that on this topic we want to put a purely perfect standard up there on what to say and what not say and when to say it.  

First, and foremost, there is a world of difference between a young couple that chooses to have sex together when they are 14 years of age simply because they think it might feel good and two individuals where one forces the other to have sex.  There is no comparison between the two situations.  

We have identified what not to say; now let us identify how we teach the sanctity of our bodies properly.  You go first and others can add in that have excoriated those stupid humans and their stupid sayings.  That is not meant to be harsh, but it is to remind every one of us that sometimes stupid things will happen and when we point that finger in judgment let's begin with accusing that teacher of being human.

[Storm Rider]

53 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Are you really trying to add to the discussion or are you just steadying the ark?

Oh, I love these kinds of comments because I find them so.... use your imagination, oh great critic of monumental attacks on the us weak children of stupidity and faithfulness ..... in your eyes at least. Certainly not in our own.