Girls raised in the Church

[cinepro]

29 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Here is the problem with Moroni 9:9 when taught to girls. https://bycommonconsent.com/2013/05/06/dear-church-leaders-fix-this-now/  If used to explain to young women their virtue can not be forcibly taken through rape--it might work if the nuances are explained. (Are these nuances being explained when it is used?)  For young men, use away to explain how abhorrent being a rapist and cannibal is to God.

Ouch.  I totally forgot about that.  Good thing we recognize that The Book of Mormon shouldn't be used as a moral guide on such issues and that part definitely wasn't written for "our day". 

But the rest of the book should be used as a moral guide and was written for our day.

[Jeanne]

8 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

No, Jeanne.  I did not and do not know what you meant.  I have never heard of any analogy about a twinke or a cupcake.  

Just a hint - the world does not end at the Utah border.  Never expect that because I am LDS I understand or know Utah Mormon culture.  It has nothing in common with me, my family, my church, my ward family or my existence. 

Thank you for the hint. I pretty much thought the lessons were all the same in the church.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Jeanne

[Storm Rider]

Just now, Jeanne said:

Thank you for the hint. 

You are more than welcome, but it does get tiresome when people from Utah think, act, and talk as if the rest of us should know all things Utah; particularly when you are demeaning another for their lack of understanding.  Thanks for that by the way; you can get off that high horse any time now. 

[Jeanne]

Well no...this high horse has been a nice ride.  (Seriously..just got done feeding the horses)..but I would not know for sure who is and is not from Utah.  Cut me a break..just once. 

 

Edited September 2, 2016 by Jeanne

[Danzo]

25 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you for the hint. I pretty much thought the lessons were all the same in the church.

why would you expect something not printed in the manual to be magically the same everywhere.

we aren't the borg, you know.

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, Danzo said:

why would you expect something not printed in the manual to be magically the same everywhere.

we aren't the borg, you know.

Oh my gosh..I am sorry.  I am so sorry I even posted on the thread.  Please forgive me.all of you. 

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

i

One can still teach the basic principles of chastity.  Just get rid of the object lessons and let priesthood men know that they share responsibilities of those consequences.

I was always taught as a young man that young men are committing sin if they break the law of chastity. 

are you saying the law of chastity wasn't taught to us?

Did you ever sit in on a lesson on the law of chastity to young men?

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

I think part of the problem is that as a whole, the membership of the church still does a pretty horrible job of sex education.  It's still a taboo subject that isn't adequately addressed by parents and leaves kids having to figure it out on their own.  I mean, some of the things I've heard people at BYU say...they clearly still have no idea.

The only "sex talk" I got from my dad on the subject was, nearly word for word:

"Steve, your mother says you're having questions about...you know...sex.  I just want you to know that it's only okay if you're married.  Any other time is bad, okay?"

And that was it.  It would've spared me so much confusion and misunderstood shame going through puberty if I only knew just what was happening!  

I have to think my parents weren't the only ones who had that mindset.  I don't think the problem is really the object lessons (even though they are dumb) per se, but rather a failure on the part of parents to sit down and have a mature conversation with young ones coming of age.  

Edit to add:. See bluebell's "Croods" explanation above

I didn't know anyone growing up whose dads taught them about sex, 

I don't think that it is just a church issue.

[Jeanne]

Just now, Danzo said:

I was always taught as a young man that young men are committing sin if they break the law of chastity. 

are you saying the law of chastity wasn't taught to us?

Did you ever sit in on a lesson on the law of chastity to young men?

No...of course not.  And I know young men are taught about chastity.  The girls however have been taught that it is their responsibility that priesthood holders remain clean.  That is all I meant.  As for lessons not the same all over, I had no idea that Seminary manuals and programs were different.  I apologize.

[Danzo]

5 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

No...of course not.  And I know young men are taught about chastity.  The girls however have been taught that it is their responsibility that priesthood holders remain clean.  That is all I meant.  As for lessons not the same all over, I had no idea that Seminary manuals and programs were different.  I apologize.

I was always taught, and still teach that it is the young men's responsibility that the young woman remain clean. We are both taught the same thing.

 

 

[Danzo]

8 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

 As for lessons not the same all over, I had no idea that Seminary manuals and programs were different. 

You were talking about the twinkies and the chewing gum lessons.  

Are they in the church manuals?

If you can find them there then it is quite likely that they will be taught all over.

If they aren't in the manuals, than assume that it may be a local thing.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

You were talking about the twinkies and the chewing gum lessons.  

Are they in the church manuals?

If you can find them there then it is quite likely that they will be taught all over.

If they aren't in the manuals, than assume that it may be a local thing.

How would I know that?  In MIA, in Seminary and at Girl's Camp..I don't know what was in the teacher's manual.. I wasn't the teacher!

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I was always taught, and still teach that it is the young men's responsibility that the young woman remain clean. We are both taught the same thing.

 

 

Good deal. I figured as much really.  Like I say..I don't know specific priesthood lessons...they wouldn't let me in..

[Danzo]

5 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Good deal. I figured as much really.  Like I say..I don't know specific priesthood lessons...they wouldn't let me in..

 

So are you opposed to the teaching that we are "our brothers keepers" and responsible for each other?

or do you believe that each man and woman is a island?

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, waveslider said:

We shouldn't take Moroni 9:9 out of anything. Instead of watering down the gospel truths in an effort to not hurt anyone, we should emphasize more the atoning sacrifice and perfectness of God's plan. There is absolutely nothing wrong with teaching that keeping oneself pure is important, teaching that being pure and being a virgin is of great worth (perhaps more than some of us would like to believe if we want to take away from scriptural truths). Along side with those teachings we should also teach that there is a perfect, infinite and eternal atonement, that, "with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26) There will always be a way to fix any wrongs. There is no need to dwell on already past mistakes, choices, or wrongs brought upon us by others, and these things can always be made right. There is no reason to pin our self worth on the negatives, but at the same time we shouldn't be trying to cushion those negatives in saying they aren't as bad is it is made out to be in scripture. The gospel is about fixing these things in spite of misdeeds, not solely on prevention. Prevention is always best, but it isn't always realistic. There would be no need of the gospel if everything could be prevented.

Moroni 9:9 teaches that rape makes a woman un-virtuous and un-chaste.  Do you think we should be teaching that to girls that might have been raped?  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

No, Jeanne.  I did not and do not know what you meant.  I have never heard of any analogy about a twinke or a cupcake.  

Just a hint - the world does not end at the Utah border.  Never expect that because I am LDS I understand or know Utah Mormon culture.  It has nothing in common with me, my family, my church, my ward family or my existence. 

The object lesson occurs in other states besides Utah but i think it's most prevalent there.  I don't know if there's a twinkie specific one but the cupcake one is that once a girl has sex she's like a licked cupcake that is disgusting and no one would ever want.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Well no...this high horse has been a nice ride.  (Seriously..just got done feeding the horses)..but I would not know for sure who is and is not from Utah.  Cut me a break..just once. 

 

I wouldn't get too worked up about it Jeanne.  I grew up in Utah but have spent most my life a long way from there.  Things are not always as different as some would have you think. For one thing People who grew up in Utah move other places and take that culture with them.  For another the church is based in Utah and many of the leaders are Utah or Mountain West natives.  

I heard all the examples given here on this board about the poor teachings about sexual sin as a teen in the 70s in suburbia SLC.   I read the Miracle of Forgiveness and read what I think are some hideous things Spencer Kimball had to say at times about sexual sin.  I listened to Elder Packer's little factory talk in a general priesthood meeting.  I heard over and over the story from Marion G. Romney that his father told him when departing for a mission he would rather have his son return in a coffin than return having lost his virtue.  I heard that pretty much most sexual sin was next to murder over and over and that the taint of sexual sin never really could totally go away.   

My wife is a convert at 22 who grew up in the east. An LDS friend of her family told my wife's mother that any believing Latter Day Saint would rather see a child dead than lose their  virtue.  When I moved to the east as a young man I was shocked that in the stake I lived in they routinely disfellowshiped and at times excommunicated teenagers for sexual sins.   I was shocked because I had never seen anything this harsh growing up in Utah.  Yes harsh rhetoric but I don't recall ever seeing any teen formally disciplined for sexual sins.  

I am happy to say I do beleive the heavy rhetoric on this topic has tempered over time.  But it was alive and well during my coming of age and I saw it not only in Utah.

[rongo]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Moroni 9:9 teaches that rape makes a woman un-virtuous and un-chaste.  Do you think we should be teaching that to girls that might have been raped?  

I don't advocate ever steadying the ark and calling for the removal or disavowal of anything in modern scripture --- especially the Book of Mormon.

I take Moroni 9:9 to teach and emphasize how serious the atrocities committed were --- not that the women who were forced had lost their virtue. Notwithstanding the language of "depriving them of their chastity and virtue." The atrocities were so serious precisely because of how sacred virtue and chastity in this context is (i.e., a woman's right and birthright not to be subjected to this). Not that this depravity made them unvirtuous. And I don't know of anyone who would use this to teach this, in this decade or in any other one. 

[Storm Rider]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The object lesson occurs in other states besides Utah but i think it's most prevalent there.  I don't know if there's a twinkie specific one but the cupcake one is that once a girl has sex she's like a licked cupcake that is disgusting and no one would ever want.

Honestly, I don't know where some people get this stuff!  I believe we should and must teach the sanctity of our bodies and of our virtue.  The world has convinced children that they both should and they need to explore their sexuality as soon as possible.  The concept of being virtuous is totally absent from the world's conversation.  

Obviously, we must do a better job of teaching these concepts and principles.  I just am not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

No...of course not.  And I know young men are taught about chastity.  The girls however have been taught that it is their responsibility that priesthood holders remain clean.

And as a young man I was taught that if I took advantage of a girl it was my responsibility no matter how willing she was. It is almost as if they wanted both to take responsibility and not foist it on the other party.

May have been wise as I have heard the opposite:

"She threw herself at me. Not sure why I should be responsible for resisting."
"He has the Priesthood. That means he is in charge. It is his fault."

Admittedly stupid arguments but they came from teenagers so pretty much par for the course.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't advocate ever steadying the ark and calling for the removal or disavowal of anything in modern scripture --- especially the Book of Mormon.

I take Moroni 9:9 to teach and emphasize how serious the atrocities committed were --- not that the women who were forced had lost their virtue. Notwithstanding the language of "depriving them of their chastity and virtue." The atrocities were so serious precisely because of how sacred virtue and chastity in this context is (i.e., a woman's right and birthright not to be subjected to this). Not that this depravity made them unvirtuous. And I don't know of anyone who would use this to teach this, in this decade or in any other one. 

I agree with your interpretation, but I think that a girl who had been raped might struggle to find that meaning when it specifically says that she has lost her virtue and her chastity.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

You were talking about the twinkies and the chewing gum lessons.  

Are they in the church manuals?

If you can find them there then it is quite likely that they will be taught all over.

If they aren't in the manuals, than assume that it may be a local thing.

Oh bunk.  These things were common enough that they could easily have been corrected by leadership.  Indeed in more recent years to the credit of the church they have been.  And one only needs read Kimball's hallmark work The Miracle of Forgiveness to find teachings like a girl who is being raped ought to fight even to the death to preserve her virtue.  

Now I will wait for the "well that was just Spencer Kimball's opinion in his own book not officially sanctioned by the church....."  

But that does not cut it.  The man was a top apostle when he wrote it.  Then church president.   The book was one that was on the approved reading list when I was a missionary.  It was as popular among the church membership as McConkie's Mormon Doctrine.  I beleive the entire text of the book is still available on LDS.ord.   Words leaders say mean something.

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Obviously, we must do a better job of teaching these concepts and principles.  I just am not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. 

I agree.  

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Moroni 9:9 teaches that rape makes a woman un-virtuous and un-chaste.  Do you think we should be teaching that to girls that might have been raped?  

I'll refer you to the reply I made to bsjkki, three posts below where you quoted me from, in your post I am quoting you from here. Please go back and read it before replying back with me here.

 

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Moroni 9:9 teaches that rape makes a woman un-virtuous and un-chaste.  Do you think we should be teaching that to girls that might have been raped?  

No, Moroni 9 teaches that INNOCENT women were robbed of their God-given right to offer themselves exclusively to their husbands by men of desperate wickedness. It's sad but true that INNOCENT women who are raped very often feel filthy and defied because, in fact, their bodily temples were defiled against their will. This is how rape traumatizes the INNOCENT female mind. Though in the eyes of God these victimized women are still virtuous and chaste, all too often even the most faithful and spiritually strong among them need intensive counseling before they can begin to feel whole and undefiled again. There may be some especially strong rape victims who don't feel defiled after being attacked, but they are likely very few and far between. To imagine that the great and holy prophet Moroni was suggesting that innocent rape victims are no longer virtuous and chaste in the eyes of the God of perfect love and mercy is absurd.