Penthouse doesn't like Church's anti-porn stance

[ksfisher]

5 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Please read what i said "Notice how solid democratic states tend to have lower suicide rates?"

or I should say, the lowest suicide rates. 

While the map would seem to back up what you're saying, I'm saying that assigning one reason, such as political affiliation, is a rather simplistic way of looking at the problem.

[TheSkepticChristian]

19 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

While the map would seem to back up what you're saying, I'm saying that assigning one reason, such as political affiliation, is a rather simplistic way of looking at the problem.

All I am saying is that Gallup's solid blue states (and Nebraska) have lower suicide rates than the rest of the country. So what is your complex answer for that? It is clear liberal thinking, liberal legislation, and liberal programs do contribute, I am not saying liberal is the main cause, but it does contribute.  

Edited August 4, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[ERayR]

13 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Please read what i said "Notice how solid democratic states tend to have lower suicide rates?"

or I should say, the lowest suicide rates. 

Look at the solid blue states

So let me get this straight.  According to your interpretation of this map Republicans are suicidal rapists.  Got it!!!

[The Nehor]

The topless photos in Europe are there because sex sells.

I think Utah porn consumption is so high because they are monitoring paid porn and Utah has the most discriminating porn consumers or people so out of touch they do not use Google effectively.

As to Eden in the story God clothes them. I do not know if nudity will make a comeback some time down the road. We cannot undo the fall by taking off our clothes any more then we can by find marriage by napping in a nice wilderness spot and waiting for God to create a spouse next to us (I tried).

That being said many LDS and other Christians do get a bit wacko about clothing and make it a cause to judge others or worse blame them as tempters. This is silly. Live and let live.

[The Nehor]

26 minutes ago, ERayR said:

So let me get this straight.  According to your interpretation of this map Republicans are suicidal rapists.  Got it!!!

To be fair suicidal rapists are the best kind of rapists especially if they do the former before the latter.

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

All I am saying is that Gallup's solid blue states (and Nebraska) have lower suicide rates than the rest of the country. So what is your complex answer for that? It is clear liberal thinking, liberal legislation, and liberal programs do contribute, I am not saying liberal is the main cause, but it does contribute.  

Whats new mexico , colorado  and oregon doing among the high suicide rate states?

 

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

 I am not saying liberal is the main cause, but it does contribute.  

Has that been demonstrated in any peer reviewed scientific literature?

It may very well be a coincidental rather than a contributing factor.

Edited August 4, 2016 by ksfisher

[jkwilliams]

5 hours ago, ALarson said:

Me either.  Maybe some wish it hadn't ever been written or implemented (or at least made public, for sure), but I cannot see them backing away from it this soon or completely removing it.

I guess time will tell if the rumors are true.  Dehlin has been right about things leaked in the past, but this seems pretty extreme.

I should say that what I heard was that there has been heated debate among the FP and 12 over whether or not to quietly abandon the policy. Time will tell, but I don't see it at this point. 

[TheSkepticChristian]

13 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Has that been demonstrated in any peer reviewed scientific literature?

"The state suicide rate significantly elevated individual suicide risk (AOR = 1.042, CI = 1.037, 1.046). Firearm availability at the state level was associated with significantly higher odds of individual suicide (AOR = 1.004, CI = 1.003, 1.006). State political conservatism elevated the odds of individual suicides (AOR = 1.005, CI = 1.003, 1.007), while church membership at the state level reduced individual odds of suicide (AOR = 0.995, CI = 0.993, 0.996). The results held even after controlling for socioeconomic and demographic variables at the individual level." 

APA Kposowa, A. J. (2013). Association of suicide rates, gun ownership, conservatism and individual suicide risk. Social psychiatry and psychiatric epidemiology, 48(9), 1467-1479. 

Does religion help? 

"Religiousness has frequently been found to be associated with higher reported mental health levels than those found in individuals lower in reported religiousness. These results have often been inferred by scholars to mean that secular groups have poorer levels of mental health despite the fact that secular populations have rarely been included in studies. In this study, an ideologically diverse sample of 4,667 respondents was included to determine the relationships among general dogmatism levels, existential dogmatism, religiousness, and 5 indicators of mental health. The sample mainly comprised agnostic, atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Jewish, and spiritual nonreligious participants. Statistical analyses indicated that atheistic and theistic groups showed no significant differences on 4 of the 5 mental health indicators. Existential dogmatism and religiousness had similar positive relationships with mental health, but each had weak predictive strengths. The implications of the current study are that secular and religious adherents have similar levels of mental health, which is contrary to expectations based on the previous literature."

Moore, J. T., & Leach, M. M. (2016). Dogmatism and mental health: A comparison of the religious and secular. Psychology of Religion and Spirituality, 8(1), 54.

Does pornography create sexual predators?  

"The effects of pornography, whether violent or non-violent, on sexual aggression have been debated for decades. The current review examines evidence about the influence of pornography on sexual aggression in correlational and experimental studies and in real world violent crime data. Evidence for a causal relationship between exposure to pornography and sexual aggression is slim and may, at certain times, have been exaggerated by politicians, pressure groups and some social scientists. Some of the debate has focused on violent pornography, but evidence of any negative effects is inconsistent, and violent pornography is comparatively rare in the real world. Victimization rates for rape in the United States demonstrate an inverse relationship between pornography consumption and rape rates. Data from other nations have suggested similar relationships. Although these data cannot be used to determine that pornography has a cathartic effect on rape behavior, combined with the weak evidence in support of negative causal hypotheses from the scientific literature, it is concluded that it is time to discard the hypothesis that pornography contributes to increased sexual assault behavior." 

Ferguson, C. J., & Hartley, R. D. (2009). The pleasure is momentary… the expense damnable?: The influence of pornography on rape and sexual assault. Aggression and violent behavior, 14(5), 323-329.

 

32 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Whats new mexico , colorado  and oregon doing among the high suicide rate states?

Why make a comment before looking at all the data I presented? 

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Live and let live.

Yes! Keep religion out of politics. 

[Danzo]

7 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Why make a comment before looking at all the data I presented? 

What data do you think I am missing?

You are saying that being republican causes suicide? if not, what are you saying?

 

[bluebell]

It's hard to take people seriously when they try to argue that porn doesn't hurt anyone because they usually use porn themselves.  It comes across like a bit of a conflict of interests, like when an alcoholic tries to teach you about the virtue of beer.  

[Doctor Steuss]

There is strength in numbers.  Maybe someone who represents another organization with an anti-porn stance could fire back.  Maybe someone like...

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, ALarson said:

Me either.  Maybe some wish it hadn't ever been written or implemented (or at least made public, for sure), but I cannot see them backing away from it this soon or completely removing it.

I guess time will tell if the rumors are true.  Dehlin has been right about things leaked in the past, but this seems pretty extreme.

.

Dehlin has also been wrong. 

[cinepro]

22 hours ago, salgare said:

Do you suppose this is good publicity for the Church? BoM on the cover of porn mags etc. 

 

This is probably more valuable as publicity for Penthouse "magazine"...

Quote

Penthouse filed for bankruptcy protection on September 17, 2013. The magazine's owner FriendFinder’s current common stock was wiped out and was no longer traded on the open market. In August 2013, FriendFinder’s stock was delisted from Nasdaq because it consistently failed to trade for more than $1.^[15]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penthouse_(magazine)#Bankruptcy

 

I don't follow such things closely, but this is the first time I've heard anyone refer to "Penthouse magazine" in as long as I can remember (whereas Larry Flint and Hugh Hefner and their respective magazines seem to get discussed on the news every once in a while.)  There could probably hardly be a less significant critic of Utah's policy.

Edited August 4, 2016 by cinepro

[Gray]

2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

All I am saying is that Gallup's solid blue states (and Nebraska) have lower suicide rates than the rest of the country. So what is your complex answer for that? It is clear liberal thinking, liberal legislation, and liberal programs do contribute, I am not saying liberal is the main cause, but it does contribute.  

From what I understood, red states have higher rates of porn usage. I think politics is really a red herring, though. 

[TheSkepticChristian]

7 minutes ago, Gray said:

From what I understood, red states have higher rates of porn usage. 

56 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's hard to take people seriously when they try to argue that porn doesn't hurt anyone 

99% of American men watch porn, you think all of them are sexual predators? 

"Although these data cannot be used to determine that pornography has a cathartic effect on rape behavior, combined with the weak evidence in support of negative causal hypotheses from the scientific literature, it is concluded that it is time to discard the hypothesis that pornography contributes to increased sexual assault behavior" 

Ferguson, C. J., & Hartley, R. D. (2009). The pleasure is momentary… the expense damnable?: The influence of pornography on rape and sexual assault. Aggression and violent behavior, 14(5), 323-329.

 

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

It may very well be a coincidental rather than a contributing factor.

That is a possibility, but 

 

 

[BlueDreams]

5 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Yes, most porn viewers are not addicts. The real problem is addiction. Addiction to the Internet, MDDB, apologetics is a problem too. Addiction is always a problem, but porn addiction is very rare. 

No, the real problem isn't just addiction. Most of those problems I mentioned are not with porn addicts...though porn addicts may have the more extreme manifestation of a number of these... Most of my answes are short, so I'm going to write the shorties in blue

Thank you for telling us there is no evidence that porn creates sexual predators. THat's not exactly what I would say. I would say that the evidence is conflictual and difficult to come by. Stats for any social trend is difficult to nail down because of the politics behind them. This is by far not a closed and set subject....very little in human behavior is. What I would say is that what leads to sexual predation is complicated and for some porn may play a part. But there is very little that one influence is the sole cause for later behavior.

I agree children shouldn't be expose to porn because their minds are not prepared. However, what about sex education show in europe? At high school meetings doctors show naked men and women to teens, but in a educational and respectful way. They are trying to normalize the human body and hope that teen pregnancy rates go down. I have no problem with more comprehensive sex ed and starting at a young age with age appropriate materials. I don't see this as a problem or in conflict with saying there's problems with porn.

Exactly. However, the stats I presented challenge the assumption that porn creates sexual predators, that won't happen especially if you had good sex education as a teen. you showed one stat that ties with republican and democrats and not much else about sexual attitude. It also only talks about reported rape. It doesn't show much of anything.

That is one of the negatives about porn (if you watch it irresponsibly), but it does not mean that porn is evil or creates sexual predators. I didn't say porn was evil, that's someone else. I said it was extremely problematic and there were several issues tied to it. I also dislike a number of the cultural trends around it that the majority of porn has perpetuated that reiterates male-centric views to sex. There's only a small subset of porn that I would describe as educational.

A lot of things can cause erectile dysfunction during sex, including too much work stress (I know a Bishop that works and goes to college), not sleeping enough, obesity by eating too much junk food,No. Most ED happens when you're older and that ED is tied to health problems and cardiovascular problems. The growth of ED in the 20's is new and associated with heavy porn use and/or porn addiction. The ones I've met are young healthy and not obese. When the porn was gone their performance increased. And it was tied also with performance anxiety associated with poor assumption given by porn. It's also tied to desensitization. It's not a guarantee that one will get it. It's just a growing trend.

but does that mean that too much work, food, or not enough sleep should be illegal and a health crisis? Porn isn't equivalent to food. IT's more equivalent to mcdonalds or added sugar or heavy meats/fats. Food is more equivalent to sex. Sex or food is in no way bad and is a blessing from God. But you can have a very unhealthy relationship with food and certain foods sre associated with health crises (such as obesity, heart disease, diabetes, etc).  

Some men watch porn as a treatment for erectile dysfunction during sex, in many cases porn does help. CFR. And are they in their 20's or older generations. I haven't seen this.

and everything, you need to be responsible about everything because everything can be a problem. Yes, but when the same problems come up again and again it may be time to take a closer look.

what about atheists? I don't usually act what type of non-religious they are. But this is also level shifting. You can believe in God and believe Porn is A-Okay.

Your rare cases probably involve addiction, like I said, addiction is always a problem. No they don't. PS the culture we live in also struggles to even say you can be addicted to porn.

However, most porn viewers are not addicted. In fact I say that about 99% of men watched porn. I agree...and said that. THough it might be slightly higher than that...not by much, there's just no sound stats on it.

 

With luv,

BD

 

 

Edited August 4, 2016 by BlueDreams

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

This is probably more valuable as publicity for Penthouse "magazine"...

 

I don't follow such things closely, but this is the first time I've heard anyone refer to "Penthouse magazine" in as long as I can remember (whereas Larry Flint and Hugh Hefner and their respective magazines seem to get discussed on the news every once in a while.)  There could probably hardly be a less significant critic of Utah's policy.

No kidding. I hadn't even thought of Penthouse in a very long time. I wouldn't have known it was still around. 

[Kevin Christensen]

Sex addiction is a drug addiction in which the addict carries around their own supply.  The behavior, in whatever form, is means to access the internal supply.  In addiction, the brain has basically been tricked into treating the behavior as equivalent to survival.  (See the DVD Pleasure Unwoven, obtainable at Amazon.  The first time I showed it to a skeptical 12 step group, at the end, they were fighting to see who could be the first one to borrow it to show to their spouses.)

Addiction at root involves increased craving combined with impeded judgement.

  http://scottwoodward.org/Talks/html/z-Scholarly Articles/HiltonDL_UnderstandingTheAddictiveNatureOfPornography.html

Quote

In the brainstem, a chemical called dopamine is produced in the ventral tegmental area (VTA), which has been found to be important in the brain’s pleasure and reward system. When activated by a pleasurable stimulus, the VTA causes dopamine to be released in an area of the thalamus called the nucleus accumbens. Other chemicals such as the brain’s natural opioids, the endorphins, also stimulate the nucleus accumbens. It may be that dopamine is more important in wanting pleasure, whereas the endorphins are more important in likingpleasure.1 These pathways are important because without them we would not value appropriate pleasures. An area of the cerebral cortex called the frontal lobe helps control the amount and context of the pleasure. It also helps us weigh the benefits and risks of a pleasurable stimulus. For instance, uncontrolled eating may be pleasurable, but it is unhealthy. Unrestrained sexuality may be pleasurable, but it destroys relationships and spiritual power and insight. It is the frontal lobe that tells us to judge these risks and benefits.

When we overuse pleasure centers, the cells that produce dopamine are overworked, and in what may be a defensive reaction, the brain decreases the amount of dopamine available for use and also causes shrinkage in the cells that produce the dopamine and in the frontal control areas. Paradoxically, the pleasure cells in the nucleus accumbens may actually enlarge in the addicted state because they have less dopamine available for pleasure and are seeking to extract every possible molecule. These physical changes in the brain have been called long-term potentiation and long-term depression.3 Thus, in addiction, normal pleasures are not enough to alleviate the craving for dopamine, and this craving in the newly reset pleasure thermostat in the brain is likely key in the desire to relapse. The shrinkage in the frontal control areas also contributes to the compulsivity and impulsivity seen in addiction. Interestingly, as neurosurgeons, we see these same characteristics in frontal lobe shrinkage from traumatic brain injury, and this has been recognized by addiction scientists.4 Sexual addiction obviously involves other neurotransmitters, two of which may be oxytocin and vasopressin. Oxytocin is important in bonding5 and increases trust in humans,6 and vasopressin may be important in sexual bonding, particularly in males. It may be a combination of dopamine-depletion craving and oxytocin-mediated bonding to pornography through masturbatory conditioning8 that contributes to relapse

The good news is that 12 step recovery directly addresses the damage.  The group accountability, the carefully defined boundaries, the opportunity to share releases toxic shame, and over time (1.5 to 2.5 years of sobriety) heals the dopamine receptors.  The 4th and 5th step "searching and fearless moral inventory" (the exact equivalent of Alma's life review) helps restore judgement.  

Addiction is very very common.  It is a progressive disease, so comparisons with extreme cases don't help.   Stopping because the behavior doesn't bring the buzz is not the same as healing.  

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

99% of American men watch porn, you think all of them are sexual predators? 

I didn't realize that you are attempting to boil it all down to only two options-porn doesn't hurt anyone or porn creates sexual predators.  That just seems silly.  And i hope that 99% of men don't look at porn.  I have a much higher opinion of men than such a statistic would warrant.

[Duncan]

6 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

what about a porn calendar for charity? Why should porn be illegal and a health crisis? Please keep religion out of politics. 

Yes, most porn viewers are not addicts. The real problem is addiction. Addiction to the Internet, MDDB, apologetics is a problem too. Addiction is always a problem, but porn addiction is very rare. 

Thank you for telling us there is no evidence that porn creates sexual predators. 

I agree children shouldn't be expose to porn because their minds are not prepared. However, what about sex education show in europe? At high school meetings doctors show naked men and women to teens, but in a educational and respectful way. They are trying to normalize the human body and hope that teen pregnancy rates go down. 

Exactly. However, the stats I presented challenge the assumption that porn creates sexual predators, that won't happen especially if you had good sex education as a teen. 

That is one of the negatives about porn (if you watch it irresponsibly), but it does not mean that porn is evil or creates sexual predators. 

A lot of things can cause erectile dysfunction during sex, including too much work stress (I know a Bishop that works and goes to college), not sleeping enough, obesity by eating too much junk food, but does that mean that too much work, food, or not enough sleep should be illegal and a health crisis?  

Some men watch porn as a treatment for erectile dysfunction during sex, in many cases porn does help. 

and everything, you need to be responsible about everything because everything can be a problem. 

what about atheists? 

Your rare cases probably involve addiction, like I said, addiction is always a problem. 

However, most porn viewers are not addicted. In fact I say that about 99% of men watched porn. 

 

I don't watch pornography, I don't even own a pornograph

[TheSkepticChristian]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

 I have no problem with more comprehensive sex ed and starting at a young age with age appropriate materials. I don't see this as a problem or in conflict with saying there's problems with porn.

Good! Like I said, in Europe, "At high school meetings doctors show naked men and women to teens, but in a educational and respectful way"  So you have no problem with teens watching nudity in sex education classes? 

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

IT's more equivalent to mcdonalds or added sugar or heavy meats/fats.

Yes! I meant junk food and added sugar. However, no one is trying to make added sugar illegal or a Health Crisis. Stress too, no one is trying to make laws to prevent stress. 

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

However, most porn viewers are not addicted. In fact I say that about 99% of men watched porn. I agree...and said that. THough it might be slightly higher than that...not by much, there's just no sound stats on it

Good! So we agree a lot! .

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

I didn't say porn was evil, that's someone else. I said it was extremely problematic and there were several issues tied to it.

I agree porn can cause negative issues, but it is not a problem for most adult viewers. In fact, 

"More hours viewing VSS was related to stronger experienced sexual responses to VSS in the laboratory, was unrelated to erectile functioning with a partner, and was related to stronger desire for sex with a partner."  Viewing Sexual Stimuli

Prause, N. and Pfaus, J. (2015), Viewing Sexual Stimuli Associated with Greater Sexual Responsiveness, Not Erectile Dysfunction. Sexual Medicine. doi: 10.1002/sm2.58

"Anecdotal evidence of something called "pornography-induced erectile dysfunction" (PIED) abounds on websites like Reddit, but this alleged condition would be very difficult to scientifically substantiate since ED is notoriously susceptible to the placebo effect. You probably shouldn't sit _ watching porn for hours every day, but the same could be said for football, sitcoms, professional wrestling, and Bible study" - RationalWiki

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

 THat's not exactly what I would say. I would say that the evidence is conflictual and difficult to come by.

So yes, in other words (for now) there is no evidence that porn creates sexual predators. What about a Paper? 

"The effects of pornography, whether violent or non-violent, on sexual aggression have been debated for decades. The current review examines evidence about the influence of pornography on sexual aggression in correlational and experimental studies and in real world violent crime data. Evidence for a causal relationship between exposure to pornography and sexual aggression is slim and may, at certain times, have been exaggerated by politicians, pressure groups and some social scientists. Some of the debate has focused on violent pornography, but evidence of any negative effects is inconsistent, and violent pornography is comparatively rare in the real world. Victimization rates for rape in the United States demonstrate an inverse relationship between pornography consumption and rape rates. Data from other nations have suggested similar relationships. Although these data cannot be used to determine that pornography has a cathartic effect on rape behavior, combined with the weak evidence in support of negative causal hypotheses from the scientific literature, it is concluded that it is time to discard the hypothesis that pornography contributes to increased sexual assault behavior." Ferguson, C. J., & Hartley, R. D. (2009). The pleasure is momentary… the expense damnable?: The influence of pornography on rape and sexual assault. Aggression and violent behavior, 14(5), 323-329

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I didn't realize that you are attempting to boil it all down to only two options-porn doesn't hurt anyone or porn creates sexual predators.  

"For most people, pornography use has no negative effects—and it may even deter sexual violence" 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-sunny-side-of-smut/

I wonder, are you also against singles (with serious disabilities or extreme deformities) watching porn? Most of them are unlikely to ever get married, so what about them? 

 

Edited August 5, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I don't watch pornography, I don't even own a pornograph

Some classic pornography from my younger days.

 

[bluebell]

28 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

"For most people, pornography use has no negative effects—and it may even deter sexual violence" 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-sunny-side-of-smut/

I wonder, are you also against singles (with serious disabilities or extreme deformities) watching porn? Most of them are unlikely to ever get married, so what about them? 

 

Yes i am.  I don't think that porn helps anyone.  Learning how to control the natural man is a part of our purpose here.  Porn is trading our blessings for a mess of porridge.  

Your link is from 2011.  Here's something that's a bit more recent on the topic-

How Porn is Rewiring our Brain

Here's something from this year-

Porn Epidemic

So no, i don't think that having your brain re-wired by porn is good for any group of people.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Yes! Keep religion out of politics. 

I said nothing like that. Please do not pretend you are agreeing with me by suggesting I said something I did not.