Penthouse doesn't like Church's anti-porn stance

[Calm]

Quote

Dr. Darrel Ray (sex therapist) says there is evidence that infidelity strengthens the primary relationship, especially open marriages. 

If there is actually evidence, it is most likely that marriages that result in infidelity have a problem to begin with (whether it is the problem of one of the individuals involved or how the couple interacts) and if the marriage is not destroyed by the infidelity, in order to endure staying together the couple must work on those problems rather than avoid them so marriages may be rated as better after the infidelity occurs than before, but it is not the infidelity that causes the improvement.  So at best infidelity might act as a trigger for change, but there is nothing stopping people from working on those changes without the additional betrayal of the relationship, the self that comes with the act of infidelity.

By the way, since infidelity occurs when one or both partners break the contract of sexual exclusiveness, an open marriage that specifically includes other sexual relationships would not be useful in determining the effect of infidelity in marriage though it might work for examining sexual exclusiveness.

[BlueDreams]

testing....the board keeps eating my posts.

K. Let's try this again. Answers in blue:

 

 

8 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

I agree it is very controversial, but it is still a reasonable possibility. No it's a controversial possibility. It's possible but rape is not sex. it's a violent act using sex. It's more tied to violence rate and women's equity and rights in society.

I am against slavery 

That is a problem everywhere, the guy working graveyard at the 7-eleven is being exploited. Professional athletes too, when they get older they have significant health problems.   And there's regulations. Porn is at best poorly regulated. At Best. 

Dr. Darrel Ray (sex therapist) says there is evidence that infidelity strengthens the primary relationship, especially open marriages. There's evidence for just about everything. Calm's answer is good on this. Personally I've had a few with some form of openness in marriage and a good number with infidelity concerns. I wouldn't wish these marriages on anyone. The after-effects can strengthen them as they repair their relationship. A larger chunk of these are now my divorced/divorcing clients.

It's our religious culture that makes it a bad thing.  Ha! No. Just no 

Please tell me how do you know porn is the cause? and if it is, is that problem very common? The problem is very common...so common their's cultural jokes about women faking it. It's not limited to clients where porn is in their relationship, but it's there as well and can sometimes be fairly drastic because porn gives a very inaccurate view of female sexuality.  

There is a lot of evidence that alcohol causes serious harm, do you have evidence that porn causes serious harm? There is no such thing as porn use disorder according to AASECT, and it is no found in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.  There is no such medical diagnosis.   AASECT won't have it. The therapists there usually put it as a type of compulsive disorder not an addiction. There access to addiction clients may also be limited because clients in programs like Sexaholics Anonymous, SA lifeline, etc recommend therapists who train to manage porn/sex addictions or at least therapists who are supportive of such. It reduces exposure.

The DSM-V is not a concrete all-knowing guide to mental disorders but a way to have universal terms and diagnoses in the western regions. Mental disorders can literally not exist in some areas...and in those areas there are other disorders that do exist that westerners don't have recognition for. The 5th edition is the first time that gambling addiction was added (and it's also the first non-substance related addiction recognized in the DSM). Porn/sex addictions are still in a blurry area and has a number of reasons that it's not included. It's not that it doesn't exist, it's that we don't have a narrative for it that can distinguish it clearly enough. It's also that it's very political. Like I mentioned, AASECT are not fans of it, while other therapist are. As I mentioned I'm somewhat a fence sitter. There's clients that I have that I believe have an addiction. There's others that I don't...they just have a glorified bad habit or poor boundaries.

And it depends on your definition of serious harm. Obviously gambling in and of itself doesn't have any serious bodily harm. It's entirely relational/financial in effect. I've already mentioned what I've seen that would indicate a problem and there's several other therapists and professionals who are seeing likewise. You can check this site's references in their articles to see a few other means of evidence: http://fightthenewdrug.org/. But evidence exists.

  ADD ON: The medical field is notoriously bad with sex issues.

I am not a therapist, I think reading individual stories is not a good way to do serious research. Well that's definitely limiting. Individual stories are important to serious research. Including case studies, qualitative research, open ended surveys, etc. 

All good books cite the scientific literature. and a couple of crappy ones

What do you think of America's War on Sex by Dr. Marty Klein? Haven't read it, so no opinion

I also wonder, what is your certification? Please tell us I don't see how this applies. I work as a sex therapist all but 1 or 2 of my clients are sex related issues. I work with a variety of sexual related issues. I have my masters in MFT at a very very good program and am licensed to practice under my supervisor. And work for a clinic that focuses on sexual issues. I will one day be AASECT certified to probably get a higher pay but certification isn't necessary to be a sex therapist.  My Boss is AASECT certified.

https://www.aasect.org/certification-types-distinguishing-sexuality-educators-counselors-and-therapists

 

With luv,

BD

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2016 by BlueDreams

[TheSkepticChristian]

 

5 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

No it's a controversial possibility. It's possible

I am glad you agree it is possible 

5 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

but rape is not sex. it's a violent act using sex

I never said the contrary, we are talking about the possibility that porn lowers sex crime rates. I am not saying it does, but I see no reason to dismiss that possibility. Here is some addictional info https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101130111326.htm

I am against child p0rn. 

5 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Porn/sex addictions are still in a blurry area and has a number of reasons that it's not included. It's not that it doesn't exist, it's that we don't have a narrative for it that can distinguish it clearly enough.

For the sake of argument let's assume you are right, it all means there is currently not enough evidence to jump to conclusions. BYU's porn addiction recovery simply jumps to conclusions without a medical diagnosis. 

5 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

that it's very political. Like I mentioned, AASECT are not fans of it, while other therapist are.

It is political and religious. According to AASECT there is no such thing as sex addiction therapists. I am aware some religious institutions give PhDs. 

5 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I work as a sex therapist all but 1 or 2 of my clients are sex related issues. I work with a variety of sexual related issues. I have my masters in MFT at a very very good program and am licensed to practice under my supervisor. And work for a clinic that focuses on sexual issues. I will one day be AASECT certified to probably get a higher pay but certification isn't necessary to be a sex therapist. My Boss is AASECT certified.

I read about three sex therapists 

1. Darrel Ray is a sex therapist that has Ed.D in psychology. 

2. Marty Klein, author of America's War on Sex labelled Best Sexuality Book by AASECT. Dr. Klein is a certified sex therapist and licensed marriage and family therapist for 30 years. 

3. Natasha Helfer Parker (Mormon) is also a sex therapist with 20 years of experience. 

None of them agree with you, please tell us why should we believe you? Why take you more seriously than them? 

5 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Well that's definitely limiting. Individual stories are important to serious research

I totally disagree with that one, I am not a therapist, I can't analyze hundreds of individual stories. 

 I can't make a conclusion just be reading some personal stories. 

10 hours ago, Calm said:

If there is actually evidence, it is most likely that marriages that result in infidelity have a problem to begin with (whether it is the problem of one of the individuals involved or how the couple interacts) and if the marriage is not destroyed by the infidelity, in order to endure staying together the couple must work on those problems 

BlueDreams says personal stories are a good source (I disagree), but here is one 

http://secularsexuality.dogmadebate.com/2015/03/31/028-the-affair-in-my-marriage/

Edited August 12, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[TheSkepticChristian]

Quote

And there's regulations. Porn is at best poorly regulated. At Best.

So the problem is "poorly regulated" 

Quote

I've already mentioned what I've seen that would indicate a problem and there's several other therapists and professionals who are seeing likewise.

With good credentials? Please name some. 

Quote

You can check this site's references in their articles to see a few other means of evidence: http://fightthenewdrug.org/. But evidence exists.

 

"Popular antiporn advocates such as YourBrainonPorn and the group called Fight The New Drug, argue that porn use is a public health issue, not a free speech issue. These advocates often assert that if people and society only knew the damage that porn use was causing to our brains, that we would regulate it, in ourselves, and in the access that is allowed. Over recent years, these fear-based arguments often invoke brain-related lingo, and throw around terms like dopamine bursts and desensitization, to describe what allegedly happens in the brains of people who watch too much porn. Brain science is hot these days, and it’s attention-getting to use brain and neuroscience lingo in arguments, because it sounds so gosh-darned convincing and scientific. The problem is, there has been extremely little research that actually looks at the brains and behaviors of people using porn, and no good, experimental research that has looked at the brains of those who are allegedly addicted to porn. So, all of these arguments are theoretical, and based on rhetoric, inferences and applying other research findings to try to explain sexual behaviors. Fascinating, rigorous new research has now been done, which actually examined the brains of alleged sex addicts, and guess what? The results are a bit different than the rhetoric. In fact, the results don’t support that sex addiction is real, or reflects any unique brain-related issues at all."  - Dr. David J Ley 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201307/your-brain-porn-its-not-addictive

 

 

Edited August 12, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[thesometimesaint]

SC:

The truth of the matter is that the DSM's tell me what I can get paid for.

[Bernard Gui]

I have been involved in an addiction recovery program for 9 years. Despite what the learned doctors may believe, pornography use is devastating to the user and his/her loved ones. I am not a professional, but I have met too many people who have been destroyed by it to ignore or deny it's awful influence. Nothing good comes from it. I'm glad the Church speaks out against it.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[thesometimesaint]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have been involved in an addiction recovery program for 9 years. Despite what the learned doctors may believe, pornography use is devastating to the user and his/her loved ones. I am not a professional, but I have met too many people who have been destroyed by it to ignore or deny it's awful influence. Nothing good comes from it. I'm glad the Church speaks out against it.

While not a sex therapist I am a professional. Limited use of pornography under controlled therapeutic situations can help with certain sexual dysfunctions. Blanket statements really don't help.  

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

While not a sex therapist I am a professional. Limited use of pornography under controlled therapeutic situations can help with certain sexual dysfunctions. Blanket statements really don't help.  

Please consider the context of this discussion. I am not referring to controlled therapy situations. May I presume those cases would be somewhat rare when compared with the multi-million consumers of the multi-billion dollar porn industry's products? Nothing good comes from that, I reckon. I don't know if the Church has a position on medicinal use of pornography. Probably not.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

So the problem is "poorly regulated" 

With good credentials? Please name some. 

 

"Popular antiporn advocates such as YourBrainonPorn and the group called Fight The New Drug, argue that porn use is a public health issue, not a free speech issue. These advocates often assert that if people and society only knew the damage that porn use was causing to our brains, that we would regulate it, in ourselves, and in the access that is allowed. Over recent years, these fear-based arguments often invoke brain-related lingo, and throw around terms like dopamine bursts and desensitization, to describe what allegedly happens in the brains of people who watch too much porn. Brain science is hot these days, and it’s attention-getting to use brain and neuroscience lingo in arguments, because it sounds so gosh-darned convincing and scientific. The problem is, there has been extremely little research that actually looks at the brains and behaviors of people using porn, and no good, experimental research that has looked at the brains of those who are allegedly addicted to porn. So, all of these arguments are theoretical, and based on rhetoric, inferences and applying other research findings to try to explain sexual behaviors. Fascinating, rigorous new research has now been done, which actually examined the brains of alleged sex addicts, and guess what? The results are a bit different than the rhetoric. In fact, the results don’t support that sex addiction is real, or reflects any unique brain-related issues at all."  - Dr. David J Ley 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201307/your-brain-porn-its-not-addictive

 

 

That article is going on 4 years old. It is interesting to read the responses to the article, especially the challenges by other professionals and people who describe their [imaginary] struggles to overcome their [imaginary] addiction. It's not as cut and dried as you seem to think it is.

[Kenngo1969]

Not everyone who views pornography is addicted, that's true.  But no one who doesn't view it is.  Not everyone who doesn't obey the Law of Chastity is a crazed sex fiend, but no one who does obey it is.  "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve.  But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord," and we will hearken unto His Servants (see Joshua 24:15).  (I got flamed mercilessly by Jeremy OrbeSmith the last time I invoked that scripture, but I don't care: it still teaches a true principle.)  

[Avatar4321]

So some of you seriously think this is bad? Why?