Calm Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 SC, even if someone nevers has a sexual relationship with another person, porn can still disrupt one's ability to relate in a healthy manner to others. Objectifying other humans, as can occur with porn, is never a good thing. 4
SteveO Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 32 minutes ago, bluebell said: Yes i am. I don't think that porn helps anyone. Learning how to control the natural man is a part of our purpose here. Porn is trading our blessings for a mess of porridge. Your link is from 2011. Here's something that's a bit more recent on the topic- How Porn is Rewiring our Brain Here's something from this year- Porn Epidemic So no, i don't think that having your brain re-wired by porn is good for any group of people. I'm still of the opinion that we're going to reap the whirlwind with those who have grown up completely in the age of high-speed internet pornography. 3
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Calm said: SC, even if someone nevers has a sexual relationship with another person, porn can still disrupt one's ability to relate in a healthy manner to others. Objectifying other humans, as can occur with porn, is never a good thing. Many also play video games, does that mean they will be Objectifying other humans? Here is a Paper http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26185674 2 hours ago, bluebell said: Learning how to control the natural man is a part of our purpose here. Men need to have an orgasm at least once a week, it helps prevent prostate cancer. Orgasm has a lot of benefits, both men and women need it. It is okay be to against porn, but please don't impose your beliefs on others, Utah has no need to make porn illegal or a health crisis. Quote Your link is from 2011 It is still true there is no evidence that porn creates sexual predators, and it may even deter sexual violence. Quote Here's something that's a bit more recent on the topic- Your own link says, "97% of boys and 80% of girls who responded to a University of East London survey targeting those aged between 16 and 20 said they had viewed porn" See! I told you! So 97% of men are unable to relate to real women? Edited August 5, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Popular Post bluebell Posted August 5, 2016 Popular Post Posted August 5, 2016 52 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Men need to have an orgasm at least once a week... Your own link says, "97% of boys and 80% of girls who responded... Your first point is just dumb. Your second point shows that you aren't comprehending the studies you are reading. It doesn't say 97% of men. It says 97% of men who answered the survey. It's really interesting how you completely ignored the point of the articles-that porn rewires your brain in unhealthy ways. Like I said, it's like listening to an alcoholic trying to convince people that drinking is good for you.... 6
The Nehor Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 3 hours ago, SteveO said: I'm still of the opinion that we're going to reap the whirlwind with those who have grown up completely in the age of high-speed internet pornography. I have said it here before but I expect that within the next few decades porn use will be considered a health crisis. I hope I am wrong.
The Nehor Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Many also play video games, does that mean they will be Objectifying other humans? Here is a Paper http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26185674 Men need to have an orgasm at least once a week, it helps prevent prostate cancer. Orgasm has a lot of benefits, both men and women need it. It is okay be to against porn, but please don't impose your beliefs on others, Utah has no need to make porn illegal or a health crisis. It is still true there is no evidence that porn creates sexual predators, and it may even deter sexual violence. Your own link says, "97% of boys and 80% of girls who responded to a University of East London survey targeting those aged between 16 and 20 said they had viewed porn" See! I told you! So 97% of men are unable to relate to real women? You ignore what people are saying to focus on side-issues that you throw out at random even when your opponent may not disagree. You do sound like an alcoholic desperately trying to use studies that red wine can be healthy in moderation to defend your lifestyle. 1
thesometimesaint Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 5 minutes ago, The Nehor said: You ignore what people are saying to focus on side-issues that you throw out at random even when your opponent may not disagree. You do sound like an alcoholic desperately trying to use studies that red wine can be healthy in moderation to defend your lifestyle. The key is moderation. SEE https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/moderate-binge-drinking
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Your first point is just dumb. No! that is what medical science says, ask your doctor! 1 hour ago, bluebell said: It's really interesting how you completely ignored the point of the articles-that porn rewires your brain in unhealthy ways. don't believe everything you read on the internet, please give me peer-reviewed Papers instead. 1 hour ago, bluebell said: It says 97% of men who answered the survey. "97% of boys and 80% of girls who responded to a University of East London survey targeting those aged between 16 and 20 said they had viewed porn" 23 minutes ago, The Nehor said: You ignore what people are saying to focus on side-issues that you throw out at random even when your opponent may not disagree. You do sound like an alcoholic desperately trying to use studies that red wine can be healthy in moderation to defend your lifestyle. I am the only one presenting scientific papers, what ever! All of you don't present any evidence that porn is like an alcoholic addict. Edited August 5, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Calm Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Many also play video games, does that mean they will be Objectifying other humans? Here is a Paper http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26185674 Your link states stronger desire to have sex with someone, it says nothing about where the quality of that relationship (if there was one, it isn't clear, but I am assuming that is what it meant...though the use of "a" rather than "their" makes me wonder). Depending on the video games, it is quite possible. Edited August 5, 2016 by Calm 1
Calm Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 15 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: The key is moderation. SEE https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/moderate-binge-drinking Do you believe the key is moderation for porn?
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Calm said: Your link states stronger desire to have sex with someone, it says nothing about where the quality of that relationship (if there was one, it isn't clear, but I am assuming that is what it meant...though the use of "a" rather than "their" makes me wonder). Depending on the video games, it is quite possible. Anyways, according to MEDICAL SCIENCE men need to have at least one orgasm weekly. Singles (both men and women) need pleasure too! What about the singles that are unlikely to ever get married? Also, many couples use porn as a therapy. Edited August 5, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Calm Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) Some studies actually show frequent masturbation from the age of 20-40 led to higher levels of prostate cancer: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090126082343.htm Edited August 5, 2016 by Calm
Robert F. Smith Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 On 8/3/2016 at 10:08 PM, salgare said: limited posts ... seems I get a few more now. Who mentioned a victim? I'm talking perceptions of the world of that bigoted cult which exists which desires to control the members sexual behaviors, you know that polygamist ones, yea the ones that persecute children of gays. Enforce your light upon that hill top I suppose, it continues to work so well for the real members, but of course these are the mouth pieces of the Lord Jesus Christ. You're incoherent here, salgare. I can't figure out what you are trying to say, but it must be my fault, if I understand you at all.
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: Some studies actually show frequent sexual activity when young, especially masturbation led to higher levels of prostate cancer. The lower levels were linked to higher sexual activity when older: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090126082343.htm Finally a scientific paper, thank you! However, a more recent scientific paper says, "The average monthly ____ frequency was assessed at three time points: age 20-29 yr, age 40-49 yr, and the year before questionnaire distribution" and concludes "findings provide additional evidence of a beneficial role of more frequent _____ throughout adult life in the etiology of PCa, particularly for low-risk disease." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27033442 but for the sake of argument let's assume your Paper is right, what about SINGLE MEN in their 40s and 50s? especially if they are unlikely to ever get married? They don't deserve pleasure and health? Edited August 5, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Calm Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 Given the conflict among previous studies, I would like tosee quite a bit more done before concluding sex that includes porn use is neccessary for health. There seems no indication from what I read that they controlled for what form of sexual activity occurred. The previous study identified masturbation as the problem for the younger age group. Apparently the chemical composition of semen is different for sex involving a partner. Does your study differentiate? The question still remains if it is correlation or causation, is it the sexual activity itself or something else (such as higher testerone or other biochemical) that aids in protection. Also does the protection for cancer if it even exists with porn outweigh other risk factors?
Calm Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 Testosterone...I am half asleep, I am sure I've misspelled something else.
Calm Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 Increased porn use is associated with higher HIV infection, substance abuse, more sexual partners and less safe sex practices among gays. It came up first, butvI wouldn't be surprised to find a similar pattern among heterosexuals: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3560402/ 1
Calm Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 It appears that porn use correlates with more sexual partners and at risk behavior: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25587721/ 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 8 hours ago, Calm said: Given the conflict among previous studies, I would like tosee quite a bit more done before concluding sex that includes porn use is neccessary for health. Okay, but both studies agree it is good for older men, so what about single men in their 40s and 50s? In my ward there is a man in his 40s that has never been married, and will probably never get married because he has some problems. 8 hours ago, Calm said: Increased porn use is associated with higher HIV infection, substance abuse, more sexual partners and less safe sex practices among gays. It came up first, butvI wouldn't be surprised to find a similar pattern among heterosexuals: but "Nearly Two-Thirds of Christian Men View Porn Monthly" http://www.christianpost.com/news/nearly-two-thirds-of-christian-men-view-porn-monthly-they-are-watching-it-at-same-rate-as-secular-men-says-study-125471/
Popular Post ksfisher Posted August 5, 2016 Popular Post Posted August 5, 2016 10 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: 9 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: but "Nearly Two-Thirds of Christian Men View Porn Monthly" Also, many couples use porn as a therapy. As much as you continue to expound your pro-pornography stance, it will not change the fact that the Lord's prophets and apostles have consistently and repeatedly condemned the use of pornography. You can continue to run out as many scientific papers as you like, it will not change the Lord's condemnation of this evil. The message seems pretty plain. By rejecting the prophets counsel you run the run of rejecting He who sent them. 5
BlueDreams Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 15 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Good! Like I said, in Europe, "At high school meetings doctors show naked men and women to teens, but in a educational and respectful way" So you have no problem with teens watching nudity in sex education classes? No. Nudity doesn't equate porn and as I said I'm not very dogmatic and have problems with conservative LDS viewpoints as well. And it's "looking at nudity." Watching nudity sounds creepy i'm tired, busy, and doing this from my phone. So I don't really have time or energy to copy and paste research. Besides Calm's citings are good. I've read enough on both ends that there are plenty of unsubstantiated opinion and actually (Though limited and flawed) research to bolster claims. Much of research also has some issues and a good amount directly contradicts. After doing my masters in a soft science it feels silly to have someone quote research on social constructs/phenomena as if it's concrete and fact. It's not. I'll point out one problem with this that you quoted: "More hours viewing VSS was related to stronger experienced sexual responses to VSS in the laboratory, was unrelated to erectile functioning with a partner, and was related to stronger desire for sex with a partner." Viewing Sexual Stimuli this is irrelevant to a number of the experiences I mentioned in my list. The problem isn't initial and the reduced sexual satisfaction isn't because they don't want to have sex more. Most do. It's the relationship and the feeling of comparison or wanting to recreate sexual experiences that kills satisfaction. A number of my female counterparts feel compared to the porn or feel a number of the suggestions aren't actually based on what they'd want sexually but what their partner saw in porn. It's not and aphrodisiac to say the least. Plus increased desire for sex doesn't equal increased amount of sex or increased satisfaction. It can actually lead to increased pressure for sex in the marriage and decreased satisfaction as sex become more "for" the other spouse. Furthermore ED specifically isn't tied with just increased use, but chronic increased use and desensitization to more normative forms of sex. Initial small increases in sexual material will increase initial desire and excitement. And in therapy there are a number of interventions that are used to build that in low-desire partners. But porn is also a questionable use in therapy because it's found to have a double edge sword. But none of the nuances found in therapy are even close to be touched in this little quote from a singular and very clinical oriented research. Quote Anecdotal evidence of something called "pornography-induced erectile dysfunction" (PIED) abounds on websites like Reddit, but this alleged condition would be very difficult to scientifically substantiate since ED is notoriously susceptible to the placebo effect. You probably shouldn't sit _ watching porn for hours every day, but the same could be said for football, sitcoms, professional wrestling, and Bible study" - RationalWiki There is something ironic about having a wiki quoted as authoritative or as contradicting to a person who literally deals with sexual concerns as my job. It's not just heresay. This is something several therapists are starting to see in therapy with clients. The quote function is driving me nuts from here on out my answers are in bold Yes! I meant junk food and added sugar. However, no one is trying to make added sugar illegal or a Health Crisis. Stress too, no one is trying to make laws to prevent stress. Actually there are moves to try and limit and pressure companies for healthier options. Particularly with children. Which is exactly what this article state the legislation would want. You mentioned that you agree children shouldn't be introduced to porn. Yet the current culture and lack of regulation means that a larger percentage of children are exposed to porn between 10-12. If not younger. Most of my clients have viewed porn around that age with a number younger and a few in their later teens. All but maybe a couple viewed porn for the first time as an adult. That's a problem. But I get the feeling you may have not read the article or what the hope for legislation is...more Research and more methods to reduce access to children. It stated clearly that adults were welcome to their choices. So yes, in other words (for now) there is no evidence that porn creates sexual predators. What about a Paper? I'm not even sure why you're focused so heavily on sexual predation. I said porn is harmful and am uncertain if there a connection to rape and porn. I know I've seen clients where porn and cultural attitudes that surround porn led to sexual boundaries to be crossed and sexual rights violated. None of my clients have been fully raped or have raped (that I'm aware of) because of porn. I'm really not in the mood of repeating. Or arguing with a straw man. I said porn can harm relationships. That's what I've argued. I wonder, are you also against singles (with serious disabilities or extreme deformities) watching porn? Most of them are unlikely to ever get married, so what about them? I was watching a documentary about prostitution where a man with severe disabilities had his first sexual experience with a high end prostitute as a gift from his father. Though I can have sympathy toward the man's desire to experience sexual relationships, I still feel there are far more problems with prostitution than there are benefits. This is similar to my feelings around porn. Porn use can be neutral...I've already said that several times. But the production, exploitations, potential relational problems, emotional bandaids, and easy access to strong material to children/teens means I still have a problem with porn with luv, BD 3
Kevin Christensen Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 14 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: No! that is what medical science says, ask your doctor! don't believe everything you read on the internet, please give me peer-reviewed Papers instead. "97% of boys and 80% of girls who responded to a University of East London survey targeting those aged between 16 and 20 said they had viewed porn" I am the only one presenting scientific papers, what ever! All of you don't present any evidence that porn is like an alcoholic addict. There was this... though apparently it was overlooked. Sex addiction is a drug addiction in which the addict carries around their own supply. The behavior, in whatever form, is means to access the internal supply. In addiction, the brain has basically been tricked into treating the behavior as equivalent to survival. (See the DVD Pleasure Unwoven, obtainable at Amazon. The first time I showed it to a skeptical 12 step group, at the end, they were fighting to see who could be the first one to borrow it to show to their spouses.) Addiction at root involves increased craving combined with impeded judgement. http://scottwoodward.org/Talks/html/z-Scholarly Articles/HiltonDL_UnderstandingTheAddictiveNatureOfPornography.html Quote In the brainstem, a chemical called dopamine is produced in the ventral tegmental area (VTA), which has been found to be important in the brain’s pleasure and reward system. When activated by a pleasurable stimulus, the VTA causes dopamine to be released in an area of the thalamus called the nucleus accumbens. Other chemicals such as the brain’s natural opioids, the endorphins, also stimulate the nucleus accumbens. It may be that dopamine is more important in wanting pleasure, whereas the endorphins are more important in likingpleasure.1 These pathways are important because without them we would not value appropriate pleasures. An area of the cerebral cortex called the frontal lobe helps control the amount and context of the pleasure. It also helps us weigh the benefits and risks of a pleasurable stimulus. For instance, uncontrolled eating may be pleasurable, but it is unhealthy. Unrestrained sexuality may be pleasurable, but it destroys relationships and spiritual power and insight. It is the frontal lobe that tells us to judge these risks and benefits. When we overuse pleasure centers, the cells that produce dopamine are overworked, and in what may be a defensive reaction, the brain decreases the amount of dopamine available for use and also causes shrinkage in the cells that produce the dopamine and in the frontal control areas. Paradoxically, the pleasure cells in the nucleus accumbens may actually enlarge in the addicted state because they have less dopamine available for pleasure and are seeking to extract every possible molecule. These physical changes in the brain have been called long-term potentiation and long-term depression.3 Thus, in addiction, normal pleasures are not enough to alleviate the craving for dopamine, and this craving in the newly reset pleasure thermostat in the brain is likely key in the desire to relapse. The shrinkage in the frontal control areas also contributes to the compulsivity and impulsivity seen in addiction. Interestingly, as neurosurgeons, we see these same characteristics in frontal lobe shrinkage from traumatic brain injury, and this has been recognized by addiction scientists.4 Sexual addiction obviously involves other neurotransmitters, two of which may be oxytocin and vasopressin. Oxytocin is important in bonding5 and increases trust in humans,6 and vasopressin may be important in sexual bonding, particularly in males. It may be a combination of dopamine-depletion craving and oxytocin-mediated bonding to pornography through masturbatory conditioning8 that contributes to relapse The good news is that 12 step recovery directly addresses the damage. The group accountability, the carefully defined boundaries, the opportunity to share releases toxic shame, and over time (1.5 to 2.5 years of sobriety) heals the dopamine receptors. The 4th and 5th step "searching and fearless moral inventory" (the exact equivalent of Alma's life review) helps restore judgement. Addiction is very very common. It is a progressive disease, so comparisons with extreme cases don't help. Stopping because the behavior doesn't bring the buzz is not the same as healing. And of course, the first sex addiction 12 step group is called Sexaholics Anonymous, founded by people who saw the resemblance between their compulsive sexual behavior and their other addictions. Patrick Carnes's first book, Don't Call It Love, was based on a study of 1000 of these people. If you're not addicted, one simple test is to completely stop, all on your lonesome, without accountability to anyone but yourself. Kevin Christensen Bethel Park, PA 3
thesometimesaint Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 14 hours ago, Calm said: Do you believe the key is moderation for porn? Lots depends on what you mean by porn. Is "The Kiss" porn? Some people thought it was. Is Michelangelo's "David" Porn. How about the Venus de Milo?
Calm Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 24 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Lots depends on what you mean by porn. Is "The Kiss" porn? Some people thought it was. Is Michelangelo's "David" Porn. How about the Venus de Milo? Does this definition work for you? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pornography Do you believe moderation is key for porn?
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) 42 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Lots depends on what you mean by porn. Is "The Kiss" porn? Some people thought it was. Is Michelangelo's "David" Porn. How about the Venus de Milo? Some men can be affected just by watching an attractive lady kissing a man on a movie. 57 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said: There was this... though apparently it was overlooked. Sex addiction is a drug addiction in which the addict carries around their own supply. I am mostly interested in scientific papers published in respected journals, I don't believe everything I read on the internet. 4 hours ago, ksfisher said: it will not change the fact that the Lord's prophets and apostles have consistently and repeatedly condemned the use of pornography. that is fine! but please keep religion out of politics. No need for Utah to make porn illegal or a health crisis. Live and let live. 3 hours ago, BlueDreams said: No. Nudity doesn't equate porn and as I said I'm not very dogmatic and have problems with conservative LDS viewpoints as well. And it's "looking at nudity." Watching nudity sounds creepy So if I post a video here of high school sex education in Europe, I won't get in trouble? or a video of nudity in art class? or bike protesters in Philly? 3 hours ago, BlueDreams said: i'm tired, busy, and doing this from my phone. but thanks for sharing your thoughts, I am glad you have a moderate position. 3 hours ago, BlueDreams said: I was watching a documentary about prostitution where a man with severe disabilities had his first sexual experience with a high end prostitute as a gift from his father. Though I can have sympathy toward the man's desire to experience sexual relationships, I still feel there are far more problems with prostitution than there are benefits. This is similar to my feelings around porn. In some parts of Nevada there are legal Brothels that are heavily regulated, prostitutes must get STD tested very frequently, and condoms are required. Please answer my question, are you against men and women with severe disabilities watching porn? 3 hours ago, BlueDreams said: It's the relationship and the feeling of comparison or wanting to recreate sexual experiences that kills satisfaction. According to a study conducted by the Barna Group only 7% of men (ages 18-30) never watch porn. If true that means porn negatively affects very few men, but video games and Bible study can also affect people. Moderation and wise use is the key to everything. Do you disagree with that? We all need to be responsible adults. 3 hours ago, BlueDreams said: Actually there are moves to try and limit and pressure companies for healthier options. Good! I hope General Authorities state that added sugar is a health crisis. Edited August 5, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
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