Bishop Bans Electronic Devices

[Rain]

On 6/27/2016 at 1:34 PM, cynth said:

That's lovely, mfbukowski... in fact amazing since the standard lds hymnal app doesn't seem to have a Samoan translation for 'Ye Elders of Isreal' in it. What app does your stake use? How DID you do it?

OK, I did not find that song in the lds app (though maybe it is in the itunes version), but I did go back and look at what was said.  Mfbukowski said:

 

Quote

I visited a Spanish ward today- about half our stake speaks Spanish only, and then we have a Samoan ward as well.  We had General Stake Priesthood last night where literally half the congregation were singing their lungs out in Spanish and half in English as we belted out "Ye Elders of Israel"  UNIFIED despite our different languages!!  There was not a dry eye in the house!!  And how did we do it?  With books, we would have needed full sets of hymnbooks in three languages.  Electronic devices made it possible- everyone had the words and music in their own languages- despite the paucity of Samoan hymnbooks

Earlier he also said that they did have Samoan books in the stake.  So some of the men had English apps, some had Spanish apps.  The stake did have Samoan hymnbooks, but not a great deal.  So by my understanding both apps and hymnbooks were used and all three languages were sung.  You can correct me if I am wrong Mfbukowski

Edited June 29, 2016 by Rain

[mfbukowski]

On 6/28/2016 at 5:04 PM, Rain said:

OK, I did not find that song in the lds app (though maybe it is in the itunes version), but I did go back and look at what was said.  Mfbukowski said:

 

Earlier he also said that they did Have Samoan books in the stake.  So some of the men had English apps, some had Spanish apps.  The stake did have Samoan hymnbooks, but not a great deal.  So by my understanding both apps and hymnbooks were used and all three languages were sung.  You can correct me if I am wrong Mfbukowski

Bingo!

Fundamentalist alert!   We can see which way this is going to be with Cynth!

And of course most Samoans speak English.  She is missing the entire point!  What about the Chinese brethren??  I picked the Samoans at random.  We have no Chinese hymnbooks that I am aware of, and who knows, there could have been another visitor from another country who used his electronic device.

The point was that without electronic devices, you cannot have multiple people singing the same song in their own languages without a tremendous expense and environmental impact- it would be an absurd idea to staff a stake center with books for every possible person who walks through the door.

She does not understand LDS circumstances- as a former Catholic it is clear she is projecting her own religious culture on ours.   

We have no formal liturgy and no fixed prayers.   All over the world, on any given Sunday, the prayers of the mass are the same.   We do not believe in that kind of prayer.

We have youth talks for pete's sake and sometimes the Bishop will ask the congregation a question- in teaching style.   You would never have that in highly formulaic Catholicism.

The whole point is that it is no big deal anywhere else in our church if you use electronics properly

WHY WOULD YOU EVEN HAVE ONLINE HYMNS AVAILABLE?  WHERE ELSE ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO USE THEM?

The whole presumption is ridiculous that one should not be able to access what is available because you are in a particular room in the church building.  Absurd.

This is NOT Catholicism, thank God.   We do not genuflect, we do not have candles, we use chapels for other kinds of meetings like concerts etc.  We have no notion of the "actual presence" of the Lord himself in a piece of bread on the altar at all times.   

NO conception of how all this works, and yet here she is telling us how to run things.  Very strange.

If you want a poster to be respectful to our religion be respectful to theirs.

[mfbukowski]

On 6/27/2016 at 2:06 PM, Daniel2 said:

 

Now, on rare occasions when combined congregations or Stakes have an unexpected influx of foreign-speaking visitors, or occasional non-native-speaking visitors, and there aren't resources to allow the use of printed materials, do I view it as appropriate to allow the use of electronics during the meetings...?  Of course that's reasonable.  But that's arguing from the fringe/exceptions, rather than the general rule.

Notice that even Daniel2 generously admitted the need for a change in circumstance for stake meetings- the kind of meetings I was discussing.

But cynth knows best

Edited June 29, 2016 by mfbukowski

[carbon dioxide]

Banning the devices itself serves no purpose and actually can contribute to the disruption.  I have a 5 year old that I am positive has ADHD and sometimes giving him the kindle to play a game calms him down and shuts him up for at least a while.  Without the Kindle, we either spend more time in the hall or he can just make a lot of noise in the chapel.  Actually in our situation, we live only like 0.5 miles from the building and it would be easier just to go home until sacrament ends rather than fight with him in the hall.  Rather than banning simply reminding members the need to be reverent and respectful would be best.

Edited June 29, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[Scott Lloyd]

16 hours ago, bluebell said:

Even in a darkened theater people aren't forbidden from turning on their phones. 

They are asked not to do so.

Do you think it's odd that you are asked to put away your cell phone in the temple?  I wasn't just speaking of secular occasions. 

The temple, in important  ways, is quite a different experience than a sacrament meeting. Surely you don't need my pointing that out to you. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Nice non-answer.

So just to be clear, IF Elder Oaks counseled you to engage in a Mountain Meadows type activity you would do it?

I now believe Is Back is playing us. Best not to feed the troll. 

[cynth]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The point was that without electronic devices, you cannot have multiple people singing the same song in their own languages without a tremendous expense and environmental impact- it would be an absurd idea to staff a stake center with books for every possible person who walks through the door.

So wrong.  People didn't sing before electronic devices?  absurd to provide books but no problem assuming all have electronic devices with apps?  ok.  we have different definitions of absurd.

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

She does not understand LDS circumstances- as a former Catholic it is clear she is projecting her own religious culture on ours.  

 oh boy, where did you get that?  I grew up lds, bic, multiple generations of pioneers on both sides, went to byu, and I am NOW Catholic.  Your assumptions are rude, wrong and thoughtless, but entirely expressive of your character.

 

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

This is NOT Catholicism, thank God

 Well that right there is a stunning example of your insensitivity and unkindness. 

 

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

have no notion of the "actual presence" of the Lord himself in a piece of bread on the altar at all times.   

NO conception of how all this works, and yet here she is telling us how to run things.  Very strange.

More insensitivity and attack on another religion.  Is that not breaking a rule here?  Your nasty comments are noted, and your unchristian attitude is sad and horrible.  That you would actually write down such an offensive statement about 'in a piece of bread' is so very, very offensive.  Unbelievable.  I am stunned.

 

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We have youth talks for pete's sake and sometimes the Bishop will ask the congregation a question- in teaching style.   You would never have that in highly formulaic Catholicism.

But now you are telling me how my church runs, and no surprise you are completely and totally wrong.  Thank God there are plenty of Mormons who are not as nasty, mean-spirited, judgmental, and fundamentally unkind as you.  You are really not the example Mormons want to show to the world! 

Mfbukowski, please refrain from attacking my religion with such crass, ugly, and inaccurate  statements.  You are breaking the rules here and your comments are unchristlike and unkind, arrogant and mean-spirited.

Edited June 29, 2016 by cynth

[Scott Lloyd]

18 minutes ago, cynth said:

So wrong.  People didn't sing before electronic devices?  absurd to provide books but no problem assuming all have electronic devices with apps?  ok.  we have different definitions of absurd.

 oh boy, where did you get that?  I grew up lds, bic, multiple generations of pioneers on both sides, went to byu, and I am NOW Catholic.  Your assumptions are rude, wrong and thoughtless, but entirely expressive of your character.

 

 Well that right there is a stunning example of your insensitivity and unkindness. 

 

More insensitivity and attack on another religion.  Is that not breaking a rule here?  Your nasty comments are noted, and your unchristian attitude is sad and horrible.  

 

But now you are telling me how my church runs, and no surprise you are completely and totally wrong.  Thank God there are plenty of Mormons who are not as nasty, mean-spirited, judgmental, and fundamentally unkind as you.  You are really not the example Mormons want to show to the world! 

Mfbukowski, please refrain from attacking my religion with such crass, ugly, and inaccurate  statements.  You are breaking the rules here and your comments are unchristlike and unkind, arrogant and mean-spirited.

Actually Mfbukowski is a great guy and a fine example  

And we did numerous things differently before we had modern conveniences. They make life easier. I regard them as blessings from God. 

By the way, I had earlier understood you were Catholic then converted to Mormonism. Now you're saying it's the other way around. It's suddenly becoming clearer to me why you have such general contempt for how Mormons do things. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[cynth]

On 6/28/2016 at 9:50 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Actually mfbukowsii is a great guy and a fine example  

 ok. 

"the Lord himself in a piece of bread...." = mfbukowski attacking other's religious beliefs in an extremely offensive manner; but he is a poster whom Scott Lloyd considers 'a fine example.'

Got it. 

Please respond in a less harsh manner. Report those who are attacking a religion.

 

[ladyshanae]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And we did numerous things differently before we had modern conveniences. They make life easier. I regard them as blessings from God. 

Amen! Change is hard, but advancements in technology are gifts and need to be embraced, not feared. I wouldn't have half my kids if it weren't for advancements in technology (infertility...bleh). I think an all out ban is divisive and unnecessary. 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, cynth said:

 ok. 

"the Lord himself in a piece of bread...." = mfbukowski attacking other's religious beliefs in an extremely offensive manner; but he is a poster whom Scott Lloyd considers 'a fine example.'

Got it. 

 

You're the one who initially came on this board complaining about how Mormons deal with their children and use electronics in sacrament meeting. And you made me think, intentionally or not, that you were a convert from Catholicism suffering culture shock. Now, it turns out, you are an ex-Mormon with some measure of contempt for your former church. No great surprise there. 

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, Buckeye said:

I'm late to the discussion, but I can see both sides. In much of secular society, it is still taboo to look at phones when having dinner or engaged in other social conversation. Surely you've picked up on this, Scott.

With regards to sacrament meeting, my wife and I have had discussions with other families regarding the appropriateness of letting kids read the Friend on an iPad. In some senses it is no different than the magazine. But because there is light emitting from a screen, for some reason the kids in a row behind will inescapably be drawn to the screen too. Understandably, that bugs a lot of families.

My family happens to sit behind an 11-year old boy who plays football games on an electronic device during sacrament meeting. Sometimes even during the sacrament. You can surely understand how that presents a challenge to my kids. It's a very complicated issue, though, because the kid's father just passed away and his mother (until recently) was the ward chorister. So we never said a word. But it was tough on our kids to avoid watching the video game.

Personally, I prefer hard copy scriptures to electronic - except when I'm scrambling to put together a lesson during sacrament meeting for 2nd or 3rd hour. 

 

It's not taboo even in secular settings like having dinner to check ones calendar or address book or look up a reference -- the sort of things I contend are appropriate to do with an electronic device in sacrament meeting. Of course one should observe good manners -- no one here is contending otherwise. But what is under discussion here is an outright ban. That's going overboard. 

[Calm]

54 minutes ago, cynth said:

 ok. 

"the Lord himself in a piece of bread...." = mfbukowski attacking other's religious beliefs in an extremely offensive manner; but he is a poster whom Scott Lloyd considers 'a fine example.'

I think he is a fine example too...most of the time, he slips up like everyone else.  When you think he does, feel free to report his posts or chide him, but don't let it sidetrack you from his reasonings as I am sure you don't want others sidetracked from points you have made.

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, ladyshanae said:

Amen! Change is hard, but advancements in technology are gifts and need to be embraced, not feared. I wouldn't have half my kids if it weren't for advancements in technology (infertility...bleh). I think an all out ban is divisive and unnecessary. 

Five more post so I can rep this one, please.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, cynth said:

oh boy, where did you get that?  I grew up lds, bic, multiple generations of pioneers on both sides, went to byu, and I am NOW Catholic.  Your assumptions are rude, wrong and thoughtless, but entirely expressive of your character...

Mfbukowski, please refrain from attacking my religion with such crass, ugly, and inaccurate  statements.  You are breaking the rules here and your comments are unchristlike and unkind, arrogant and mean-spirited.

So mfb is basing his commentary on the Catholic faith on his own personal experience (in part of being a Catholic growing up) and you are basing your Mormon commentary on your personal experience (in part from being Mormon growing up).

Have I got that right?

[Calm]

Is it the phrasing that is the problem, kind of like using "Joe Smith" though apparently he signed as Mayor at least once with "Joe"? Because it seems referring to bread and wine as the actual presence is consistent with respectful members:

"Recalling these words of Jesus, the Catholic Church professes that, in the celebration of the Eucharist, bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit and the instrumentality of the priest."

http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/order-of-mass/liturgy-of-the-eucharist/the-real-presence-of-jesus-christ-in-the-sacrament-of-the-eucharist-basic-questions-and-answers.cfm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, cynth said:

right there is a stunning example of your insensitivity and unkindness. 

Why?  Because he recognizes that Mormonism and Catholicism are very different belief systems and he highly prefers Mormonism since Catholicism never met his needs that he feels has been answered in his new faith (of 40 years).

Quote

More insensitivity and attack on another religion.  Is that not breaking a rule here?  Your nasty comments are noted, and your unchristian attitude is sad and horrible.  That you would actually write down such an offensive statement about 'in a piece of bread' is so very, very offensive.  Unbelievable.  I am stunned.[/quote]

Because of the tone you believe he says it with or what he states happens in your church meetings?

I am not challenging that you think it is extremely offensive, just trying to understand why to learn acceptable boundaries on language.[\b]

Edited June 29, 2016 by Calm
Formatting issue

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, cynth said:

So wrong.  People didn't sing before electronic devices?  absurd to provide books but no problem assuming all have electronic devices with apps?  ok.  we have different definitions of absurd.

 oh boy, where did you get that?  I grew up lds, bic, multiple generations of pioneers on both sides, went to byu, and I am NOW Catholic.  Your assumptions are rude, wrong and thoughtless, but entirely expressive of your character.

 

 Well that right there is a stunning example of your insensitivity and unkindness. 

 

More insensitivity and attack on another religion.  Is that not breaking a rule here?  Your nasty comments are noted, and your unchristian attitude is sad and horrible.  That you would actually write down such an offensive statement about 'in a piece of bread' is so very, very offensive.  Unbelievable.  I am stunned.

 

But now you are telling me how my church runs, and no surprise you are completely and totally wrong.  Thank God there are plenty of Mormons who are not as nasty, mean-spirited, judgmental, and fundamentally unkind as you.  You are really not the example Mormons want to show to the world! 

Mfbukowski, please refrain from attacking my religion with such crass, ugly, and inaccurate  statements.  You are breaking the rules here and your comments are unchristlike and unkind, arrogant and mean-spirited.

Sorry you found it offensive.

It was a statement of fact in my opinion, and is one reason I left.

I feel the real presence in our sacrament meetings without the substance theology of Aquinas, which I find confused. But certainly no offense met, I saw it as a theological fact, the intent was to draw a distinction in how we regard building use.

Edited June 29, 2016 by mfbukowski

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The temple, in important  ways, is quite a different experience than a sacrament meeting. Surely you don't need my pointing that out to you. 

Remember that the topic of our discussion is that a non member would think it odd (and that they were visiting some weird luddite church) if they were asked not to use their electronic devices.  I'm providing examples of why I don't believe that would be the case.  There are lots of places in secular and religious society where electronic devices are not allowed and you and I don't think it's weird at all.  I don't see why a non member would react differently.  

To be honest, if the non-member was used to a certain type of church experience (one that was treated as a more reverent and sacred experience than mormons typically treat our sacrament meetings), they would probably think it extremely odd to see electronic devices in so much use.  

And I agree that the temple and sacrament meeting are different in some ways.  They are the same in some pretty important ways too though so i'm not surprised that some people think that if cell phones are inappropriate for a temple endowment session then they are inappropriate for sacrament meeting as well.  

[Is Back]

22 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Nice non-answer.

So just to be clear, IF Elder Oaks counseled you to engage in a Mountain Meadows type activity you would do it?

Worked for Nephi.

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It's not taboo even in secular settings like having dinner to check ones calendar or address book or look up a reference -- the sort of things I contend are appropriate to do with an electronic device in sacrament meeting. Of course one should observe good manners -- no one here is contending otherwise. But what is under discussion here is an outright ban. That's going overboard. 

If the FP and Q of 12 issued a directive banning electronic devices from sacrament I am skeptical that you would be taking the same positon. 

[HappyJackWagon]

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 2:19 PM, Is Back said:

Worked for Nephi.

I don't mean this to be rude so I hope you're not offended, but I'm curious. Are you affiliated with any of the LDS Fundamentalist groups? Your view of obedience to leaders and even the acceptance of violence reminds me of some of these groups.

People who are willing to accept that God will order violence, either by his own voice or the voice of his servants, are frightening to me.

My life was once threatened by a mentally ill person who truly felt God had commanded that I should be killed. This person believed that my death would serve a greater good. It's scary, psychotic crap.

If you're a troll, fine. Have fun. But if you really believe that God and his leaders will order violence, I suggest you consider counseling. I'm serious.

FYI- here's a little story about some God ordered murders carried out by the Lebarons.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8634/4-MURDERS-IN-TEXAS-LINKED-TO-LEBARONS.html?pg=all

[6EQUJ5]

Sacrament meeting today was incredible.  Very reverent and quiet.   Everyone was attentive and the talks were excellent.

Lots of people attended in the RS room.  They did take the sacrament there.

Anyway, I can see the positive impact of our Bishop's counsel already.

[Stargazer]

On 6/23/2016 at 2:10 PM, Jeanne said:

I will tell you what..I would thank this Bishop...just once in a day..any day...would I love to sit down and have someone communicate with me..say hello or something instead of texting or gabbing on the phone..  It has been a long time since I have seen a stranger's eyes..customers at work are ignoring their kids and husbands are getting their lists on the phone from the wife..I mean...it is crazy!!

Since my wife is back in the UK and I won't see her again until I manage to fly there sometime in September, my gizmos are what helps me stay connected with her.  We text, Facebook, and email several times a day.  I'm hoping for her to get a laptop with a built-in camera so we can Skype!  

I do understand the longing to be finally "connection free", though!  

[Stargazer]

The bishop, in my humble opinion, is off the reservation.  He might as well ban scriptures that are any other color than black or brown.  Or try to enforce taking the Sacrament with the right hand only.

Over half the brethren in my High Priests Group use their devices to reference the lesson while I'm teaching it.  It doesn't seem to harm the lesson one little bit.  Even if they're playing games -- as long as they do it quietly.