Bishop Bans Electronic Devices

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Antoni said:

I totally agree with this Bishop. Today I saw far too many saints looking at non-church things on their pads/phones in all sessions. As YM 1st Counsellor the YM know not to use an electronic device during my lessons. It's amazing how their knowledge of and ability to navigate the scriptures has vastly improved over the last 9 months since using paper scriptures. Likewise they've learnt to use the Bible Dictionary and we're had all sorts of conversations about things in the scriptures like footnotes/cross references and the maps, which we never would have done using electronic versions.

For those saying they "need" these devices (for themselves or others) that's just nonsense. You need to learn to focus on the more important things and likewise teach others the same. Taking a quad to meeting is no real challenge, I always do and so use that if I need to look something up. We also need to sometimes accept we might well be bored in a sacrament meeting. Honestly I was today during parts, but that's how it is. Life sometimes is boring and I'd rather be bored than succumb to culture of instant pleasure and gratification that invades our lives from sources that are not of God.

I challenge those here to go to sacrament for 4 weeks without any electrical device and see if it's the unbearable burden you claim. 

If I was ever called as Bishop I would instigate a similar policy I feel - it would stop the most frustrating thing which is when people use iPads or worse phones for their talk notes and we have to sit their for an age whilst they "sort out their technical hitch / or find their place (whilst scrolling up and down frantically)"

My previous Bishop had a counsellor who used to spend sacrament meeting on his device, when I spoke to the Bishop about it he suddenly realised how disrespectful it looks (even if the counsellor was doing something that was related to his calling) and so made sure it didn't happen on the stand. That had a knock on effect on there rest of the congregation. 

I suppose it links in with the whole topic of reverence. As a convert to the church of several years now, the lack of reverence and just common courtesy in meetings is still something that jars with me far too often. 

 

Light, Love and Peace

D

Who are you to judge others who use them correctly and need to do so for reasons to which you are not privy?

How would you like to carry a 30 pound briefcase while walking with a cane?   Or while NOT walking with a cane?

When cell phones are outlawed, only outlaws will have cell phones.

There are good and bad uses for everything.

[mnn727]

16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Our stake president addressed us today on notes from his tablet, while other took notes on theirs.

OOPS.

Burn him at the stake.  Clearly it should have been written with a quill pen on parchment.

Thats right, after all: Jesus didn't use an iPad.

</sarcasm>

My phone died this week. I picked up my large Print Scriptures this morning and after feeling how heavy they were decided I really didn't need to take anything after all.

We used my wife's phone during Sunday School and I had nothing during Priesthood. 

[flameburns623]

With no claim to statistical accuracy, I would estimate that no more than 30% of my ward, and less than 25%of those attending Sunday School or Priesthood carry any sort of printed book.

IOW, 70%+ of my ward are using an electronic medium. Including me, Luddite though I be.

Although I carry printed Scriptures, I study Sunday School and Priesthood lessons diect from the LDS.org app that some dude named Lloyd (Scott, or some such was his first name, I think) mentioned numerous times some months back.

Oh: and in Priesthood today? The teacher referenced that very app as part of his lesson.

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by flameburns623
Typo

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, cynth said:

You're kidding, you mean someone would approach a visitor during a meeting?  Who would do such a rude thing?!?   If you mean a visitor was told quietly after a meeting, different issue, who would be embarrassed by that?  what embarrassment are you talking about?

Honestly, if I were a newly baptized member or new move-in and somebody approached me about this, quietly or not, before meeting or after, I'd wonder what kind of neo-Luddite cult I'd signed myself up for. It's uncalled for silliness. 

Edited June 26, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Our stake president addressed us today on notes from his tablet, while other took notes on theirs.

OOPS.

Burn him at the stake.  Clearly it should have been written with a quill pen on parchment.

There has been occasion when the meeting has run long and the bishopric has texted me to say we were skipping the intermediate hymn in the interest of time. 

If they had done so today, I wouldn't have left my seat in the congregation to go conduct the intermediate hymn and it wouldn't have been necessary for them to announce we were skipping it. Awkward. 

[Calm]

A simple wave of the hand to catch your eye and then drawing a finger across the throat is more than sufficient, Scott.  Who needs to text?

[cynth]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Honestly, if I were a newly baptized member or new move-in and somebody approached me about this, quietly or not, before meeting or after, I'd wonder what kind of neo-Luddite cult I'd signed myself up for. It's uncalled for silliness. 

I would have to disagree with you there.  It is customary in roman catholic masses to request prior to a service for people to turn off electronic devices.  Here on the East Coast, movie theatres, museum tours, Broadway shows, ballet, dance and instrumental performances, school debate competitions, graduation services, even small town zoning meetings ask attendees to turn off their electronic devices.  It is absolutely normal and expected.   No one considers being asked to have respect for the event and for other attendees to be 'uncalled for silliness,' especially during a religious service.  If one insists on using a device during an event, then why be there?  If one insists on looking at their tiny screen rather than at the real life unfolding before their eyes, that is their loss; people will roll their eyes at such crassness, and anything but absolute silence while violators tap on their teeny little device is vigorously excoriated.  'Neo-Luddite cult.'. Please.  The whole world is out there, and no one I know has any problem being asked to respect an event by turning off an electronic device.  

Edited June 27, 2016 by cynth

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, cynth said:

I would have to disagree with you there.  It is customary in roman catholic masses to request prior to a service for people to turn off electronic devices.  Here on the East Coast, movie theatres, museum tours, Broadway shows, ballet, dance and instrumental performances, school debate competitions, graduation services, even small town zoning meetings ask attendees to turn off their electronic devices.  It is absolutely normal and expected.   No one considers being asked to have respect for the event and for other attendees to be 'uncalled for silliness,' especially during a religious service.  If one insists on using a device during an event, then why be there?  If one insists on looking at their tiny screen rather than at the real life unfolding before their eyes, that is their loss; people will roll their eyes at such crassness, and anything but absolute silence while violators tap on their teeny little device is vigorously excoriated.  'Neo-Luddite cult.'. Please.  The whole world is out there, and no one I know has any problem being asked to respect an event by turning off an electronic device.  

I think you have a point in that there are many places where cell phones are discouraged and it doesn't stop people from going, nor do people think it's an odd request.  

I'm all for people being able to use the church apps during sacrament meeting for scriptures, etc. but it really should not be that big of a deal for most of us to go an hour without an electronic device.  It's not that much to ask (again, for most people).   We do it in the temple and none of us have keeled over yet.

[flameburns623]

Twenty-odd years ago it was common enough to see members in the pews with supermarket word-search puzzles and that popular Japanese number puzzle.

Granted this wasn't as ubiquitous as electronic devices, but they were out there, along with the occasional novel or popular magazine.

What WAS ubiquitous were the sleepers. People in the pews discreetly or obviously snozing. So common were these that they have been the source of jokes for decades.

On the one hand: yes, we should all try to give the speakers the courtesy of our attention. 

On the other hand: Mormons don't have a "Theocratic Ministry School" like the Jehovah's Witnesses: we don't teach our members to speak in public, and it shows.

My Baptist pastor father-in-law told this story about a student in his Biblical Preaching class who had just completed his first classroom sermon.

His instructor tendered the following:

"Son: that was a mighty fine sermon you just preached. There were just three things wrong with it. First, you didn't preach it, you read it. Second, you didn't read it very well. Third, it wasn't really worth the reading. Other than that, though, you preached a fine sermon". 

While LDS don't preach sermons but give talks, the sad thing is that many of us struggle in like manner as that erstwhile Bible College student. It's hard to blame people for seeking some alternative outlet for edification in some cases. Yes: it's rude, but I can empathize to some degree.

And that assumes that at least some of the electronic-device readers aren't using those devices interactively in response to meaningful points the speaker is making. 

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Thats right, after all: Jesus didn't use an iPad.

</sarcasm>

My phone died this week. I picked up my large Print Scriptures this morning and after feeling how heavy they were decided I really didn't need to take anything after all.

We used my wife's phone during Sunday School and I had nothing during Priesthood. 

We had a Stake General Priesthood meeting tonight, and the President taught it like a giant priesthood class with scriptures out, white board out front, and a spirited (in every sense) discussion.

I would say over 50% were on devices, and the others had traditional triples and Bibles.

What was the SP using?  An ipad of course!  And a big one at that.  A lot better than large print!

Edited June 27, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Antoni]

9 hours ago, escott3564 said:

Thank goodness you're not my bishop. You are not taking mothers and kids with special needs into consideration. 

I have a more utilitarian view of the ward - it's interesting to note here how people are concerned about themselves and their situation rather than the ward/sacrament meeting as a whole.

 

(as a total aside but as one that works in the theatre industry and has a degree in it your (escot3564) avatar is rather a strange one for a latter day saint, I have to say!)

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

A simple wave of the hand to catch your eye and then drawing a finger across the throat is more than sufficient, Scott.  Who needs to text?

The counselor mouthed something to me as I was on the way up, but I thought he was telling me to go ahead with the intermediate hymn.

 

[Antoni]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Who are you to judge others who use them correctly and need to do so for reasons to which you are not privy?

How would you like to carry a 30 pound briefcase while walking with a cane?   Or while NOT walking with a cane?

When cell phones are outlawed, only outlaws will have cell phones.

There are good and bad uses for everything.

 

If someone has something more pressing for 60 mins of their lives then they need to deal with that - asking people to refrain from using them for 60 mins a week is NOT a big ask. We have a member of the ward here who works in a very senior capacity in the national security. He has to have his phone on at all times, but he simply has it on vibrate and leaves if he needs to deal with something.(which I think has happened once in the last few years) He also notifies those around him prior to start that he may need to leave due to nature of his work.

I totally get that and admire his politeness. A medical professional or forces/police are only exceptions I can think. 

I also have to be honest here - I seldom see people using them "correctly" - even people I respect and thought would know better  I've caught looking up the news sites/social media. I think the temptation is just too great as people are now habitually used to flicking through their screens at nonsense all day.

I'd also call to peoples remembrance the counsel we've received from apostles over the last few General Conferences about not using devices during sacrament meetings. But of course "who are they to judge people".

I've not posted on here for an age and entering into this "discussion" has reminded me why I stopped. So I'll bid you all adieu again as this clearly isn't the place for me. 

Light, Love and Peace

 

 

[Calm]

Besides medical professionals, family caregivers need to be "on call" a lot to.

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, cynth said:

I would have to disagree with you there.  It is customary in roman catholic masses to request prior to a service for people to turn off electronic devices.  Here on the East Coast, movie theatres, museum tours, Broadway shows, ballet, dance and instrumental performances, school debate competitions, graduation services, even small town zoning meetings ask attendees to turn off their electronic devices.  It is absolutely normal and expected.   No one considers being asked to have respect for the event and for other attendees to be 'uncalled for silliness,' especially during a religious service.  If one insists on using a device during an event, then why be there?  If one insists on looking at their tiny screen rather than at the real life unfolding before their eyes, that is their loss; people will roll their eyes at such crassness, and anything but absolute silence while violators tap on their teeny little device is vigorously excoriated.  'Neo-Luddite cult.'. Please.  The whole world is out there, and no one I know has any problem being asked to respect an event by turning off an electronic device.  

Asking people to silence their cell phones so there's no unwelcome noise during a meeting or event is quite a different matter from banning devices outright. Absolutely people should silence their cell phones in any public meeting.

But in a Mormon environment, there are a number of appropriate (and silent) uses for an electronic devices at a meeting that don't involve the ringing of a telephone. Do you really not see the difference?

A thing that has never been made clear to me is how it is disrespecting a sacrament meeting to silently use an electronic device to look up a scriptural passage or other reference or to, say, mark a youth activity or a ward temple night on a calendar. Is it only that it irritates you to observe somebody doing it? Have you tried averting your eyes?

Do you have the same objection to people looking up a passage in a paper copy of the scriptures during the meeting or writing down an upcoming event in a planner?

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think you have a point in that there are many places where cell phones are discouraged and it doesn't stop people from going, nor do people think it's an odd request.  

I'm all for people being able to use the church apps during sacrament meeting for scriptures, etc. but it really should not be that big of a deal for most of us to go an hour without an electronic device.  It's not that much to ask (again, for most people).   We do it in the temple and none of us have keeled over yet.

I'm all for people silencing their phones as well. I thought the discussion here was about a bishop banning all electronic devices outright for any purpose whatsoever, not just requiring the silencing of cell phones.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

46 minutes ago, Antoni said:

 

I'd also call to peoples remembrance the counsel we've received from apostles over the last few General Conferences about not using devices during sacrament meetings. But of course "who are they to judge people".

 

 

 

Calm posted a number of links from Church sources and leaders about use of electronic devices at meetings. None of them endorsed or advocated or mandated the outright banning of them during sacrament meeting. Can you cite any that do?

I thought the ones she posted were about inappropriate uses during meetings: playing games, watching YouTube videos, etc. I'm not excusing that.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Calm posted a number of links from Church sources and leaders about use of electronic devices at meetings. None of them endorsed or advocated or mandated the outright banning of them during sacrament meeting. Can you cite any that do?

I thought the ones she posted were about inappropriate uses during meetings: playing games, watching YouTube videos, etc. I'm not excusing that.

Maybe this is just coincidence, but my family tells me that yesterday our bishop here in Virginia expressed his concern at the excessive use of electronic devices at church and counseled people to put them away except when absolutely necessary (apparently he didn't define when that would be). I wonder if this has come up in leadership training meetings. 

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

Maybe this is just coincidence, but my family tells me that yesterday our bishop here in Virginia expressed his concern at the excessive use of electronic devices at church and counseled people to put them away except when absolutely necessary (apparently he didn't define when that would be). I wonder if this has come up in leadership training meetings. 

I wouldn't doubt it.  It was brought up a few weeks ago for us.  But, yesterday for instance, I saw most people referring to their phones during our bishop's talk.  Peaking over shoulders I saw games and facebook.  Our ward must be bad.  I honestly don't believe I've ever done either in church--not that I'm necessarily opposed to any such things. 

[jkwilliams]

32 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I wouldn't doubt it.  It was brought up a few weeks ago for us.  But, yesterday for instance, I saw most people referring to their phones during our bishop's talk.  Peaking over shoulders I saw games and facebook.  Our ward must be bad.  I honestly don't believe I've ever done either in church--not that I'm necessarily opposed to any such things. 

I've never used a smart phone or tablet in church. Just never occurred to me to bring them. I always preferred my well-used quad, though I have no idea where it is these days. I do think lack of engagement is a problem in church meetings. As I mentioned, when I was attending and trying really hard to get something positive out of the meetings, I noticed that most other people were pretty disengaged. Not that I'm criticizing them. Maybe it's just that a lot of Mormons seem to equate "somber" with feeling the spirit, which tends to make for pretty slow meetings.

Edited June 27, 2016 by jkwilliams

[mnn727]

What some of you "anti-technology in Church" people are missing, is that we use our phones and iPads for the LDS Application the Church puts out:  Looking up Scriptures, Lessons, etc. I Never use mine for anything other than scriptures and Lessons or hymns during the 3 hour block.

As far as a phone ringing during Sacrament, I think I remember it happening once last year -- My ward is pretty good about silencing phones during Church.

Do some people abuse it? sure. But why punish everyone because of the few who abuse it?

It would have been much better if the Bishop had talked about abusing their phone/iPad usuage and the proper use of technology during Church.

 

Perhaps we should have 5th Sunday lessons on Public Speaking and how to prepare and present talks. Perhaps more people would be interested.

Edited June 27, 2016 by mnn727

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I've never used a smart phone or tablet in church. Just never occurred to me to bring them. I always preferred by well-used quad, though I have no idea where it is these days. I do think lack of engagement is a problem in church meetings. As I mentioned, when I was attending and trying really hard to get something positive out of the meetings, I noticed that most other people were pretty disengaged. Not that I'm criticizing them. Maybe it's just that a lot of Mormons seem to equate "somber" with feeling the spirit, which tends to make for pretty slow meetings.

Sure.  I agree. 

[jkwilliams]

13 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

What many of you "anti-technology in Church" people are missing, is that we use our phones and iPads for the LDS Application the Church puts out:  Looking up scriptures, etc. I Never use mine for anything other than scriptures and Lessons or hymns during the 3 hour block.

Do some people abuse it? sure. But why punish everyone because of the few who abuse it?

FWIW, I just talked to my friend at the COB, who tells me there has been some debate among the Brethren about this issue, with some pushing a pretty hard line against using electronics at church, especially in sacrament meeting. He says the bishop talked about in the OP may have had contact with one of the "firmer" (his word) apostles. Obviously, this is just my friend's take, but he would be in a position to know.

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm all for people silencing their phones as well. I thought the discussion here was about a bishop banning all electronic devices outright for any purpose whatsoever, not just requiring the silencing of cell phones.

I'm not talking about merely silencing our phones, but in putting them away and not looking at them or using them.  There are a lot of places and events in our secular world where that is asked of those who attend the function and no one complains or thinks it's odd.  I don't think a newcomer would be at all surprised if they were asked not to use their electronic devices during an LDS worship service.

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

What many of you "anti-technology in Church" people are missing, is that we use our phones and iPads for the LDS Application the Church puts out:  Looking up scriptures, etc. I Never use mine for anything other than scriptures and Lessons or hymns during the 3 hour block.

Do some people abuse it? sure. But why punish everyone because of the few who abuse it?

I agree when it comes to the hours after sacrament meeting.  But even though we could still use electronic devices during sacrament for legitimate purposes, it's not really that much of a hardship not to for that one hour.