HappyJackWagon Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, bluebell said: If the stake president backed the bishop, what would you do in 6E's situation? (not a snarky question, just wondering how you would handle that since i know you said you wouldn't follow the bishop's counsel on the ban). To your first sentence, sometimes it's really hard to tell the difference between not feeling quite right about following a directive and just not wanting to follow the directive. I struggle with being able to tell the difference between 'this is wrong to do' and 'this is not something i want to do.' This is why we have agency. We can choose to follow an edict we don't think is right or we can choose not to follow (regardless of who else agrees or approves). I don't think the decision to not follow a man will keep anyone out of the celestial kingdom.
jkwilliams Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 Reminds me of our bishop in Texas who banned all use of the Relief Society room except for Relief Society meetings. He said it was a sacred room set apart for that purpose and he wasn't going to it be tainted by any other use. 1
consiglieri Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 19 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: If the bishop would like to treat his congregation with the respect he's asking for, he could ask them to use their electronics respectfully. He could ask them not to play Candy Crush or Subway Jump during the sacrament so they can focus on the savior. But outright banning all electronic devices is a massive overreach and I wouldn't follow him on that. I have no problem with a bishop telling people to ditch their electronic devices completely from any church meetings. The opportunity for abuse is just too great. Why should people be able to entertain themselves with a computer game instead of listening to a boring talk or lesson they have heard a million times before? But this gets at the real problem, I think. The problem is that people are bored to death at church and look for any way to alleviate the situation. If church were actually engaging and interesting, the problem would largely go away of its own accord. Telling people they can't use electronic devices is just an excuse to let the boredom continue rather than making any substantive change for the better.
jkwilliams Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I have no problem with a bishop telling people to ditch their electronic devices completely from any church meetings. The opportunity for abuse is just too great. Why should people be able to entertain themselves with a computer game instead of listening to a boring talk or lesson they have heard a million times before? But this gets at the real problem, I think. The problem is that people are bored to death at church and look for any way to alleviate the situation. If church were actually engaging and interesting, the problem would largely go away of its own accord. Telling people they can't use electronic devices is just an excuse to let the boredom continue rather than making any substantive change for the better. This will probably sound like boasting, but I don't mean it to be. When I was attending regularly with my wife a couple of years ago, I decided I was going to stop reacting to the things I didn't like, as I was doing a lot of internal eye-rolling and grinding of teeth. I made a conscious decision to look for the good in the meetings and try to ignore the bad. That required me to concentrate, and I soon realized that most of the people around me were disengaged, and I thought how sad it was that a wretched unbeliever was paying more attention than most. 2
bluebell Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 16 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: This is why we have agency. We can choose to follow an edict we don't think is right or we can choose not to follow (regardless of who else agrees or approves). I don't think the decision to not follow a man will keep anyone out of the celestial kingdom. I think sometimes it's more of a fine line than we like to think though. I agree that I doubt the celestial kingdom is at risk, but there are definite blessings that won't be available if we don't follow the valid counsel of our bishop because of pride, stubbornness, or rebelliousness, no matter how we justify it. Not to mention the spiritual trouble that might be ours if our example leads others to also not follow valid counsel. We definitely have agency, but there are always consequences when we choose wrong, and not agreeing with counsel doesn't mean it's o.k. with God if we don't obey. To be clear, i'm not saying that this bishop's counsel is valid or that God condone's it and desires the ward's obedience. I honestly have no idea and since it doesn't apply to me I'm not going to spend any time trying to ascertain that knowledge. But i do understand why 6E is conflicted. Until he knows how God feels about the counsel the bishop has given, he should be conflicted. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 7 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I have no problem with a bishop telling people to ditch their electronic devices completely from any church meetings. The opportunity for abuse is just too great. Why should people be able to entertain themselves with a computer game instead of listening to a boring talk or lesson they have heard a million times before? But this gets at the real problem, I think. The problem is that people are bored to death at church and look for any way to alleviate the situation. If church were actually engaging and interesting, the problem would largely go away of its own accord. Telling people they can't use electronic devices is just an excuse to let the boredom continue rather than making any substantive change for the better. True. I've heard the "ban electronics from youth Sunday School classes" plea for years. While there could certainly be abuses, I think it is incumbent on the teacher to engage the student in a way that will reduce the abuses. Kids will be kids, but assuming the worst of them only feeds bad behavior. Same for adults. I agree that lack of engagement is the real problem and the electronics is simply an easy target. But removing them won't fix the problem. The ban could even exacerbate it by driving a wedge between leaders/teachers and those who don't want to be controlled or treated as children. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 2 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said: Late 30s 1 hour ago, bluebell said: If the stake president backed the bishop, what would you do in 6E's situation? (not a snarky question, just wondering how you would handle that since i know you said you wouldn't follow the bishop's counsel on the ban). To your first sentence, sometimes it's really hard to tell the difference between not feeling quite right about following a directive and just not wanting to follow the directive. I struggle with being able to tell the difference between 'this is wrong to do' and 'this is not something i want to do.' I already indicated I would take it further up the line if need be. As this sort of thing is practically unheard of Churchwide, it's hard for me to think Church headquarters would bless it. By the way, I haven't said I wouldn't abide by it, but my compliance would come at the cost of my going higher authority with my concern. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 53 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I have no problem with a bishop telling people to ditch their electronic devices completely from any church meetings. The opportunity for abuse is just too great. Why should people be able to entertain themselves with a computer game instead of listening to a boring talk or lesson they have heard a million times before? But this gets at the real problem, I think. The problem is that people are bored to death at church and look for any way to alleviate the situation. If church were actually engaging and interesting, the problem would largely go away of its own accord. Telling people they can't use electronic devices is just an excuse to let the boredom continue rather than making any substantive change for the better. Whether or not Church meetings are boring is a separate issue from using electronic devices. And keeping yourself amused is the weakest excuse for using them.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: Reminds me of our bishop in Texas who banned all use of the Relief Society room except for Relief Society meetings. He said it was a sacred room set apart for that purpose and he wasn't going to it be tainted by any other use. Another example of going off the rails.
jkwilliams Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: Another example of going off the rails. I will never forget it. He got quite emotional as he announced it from the pulpit. He was released a couple of months later, and things went back to normal.
stemelbow Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: I have no problem with a bishop telling people to ditch their electronic devices completely from any church meetings. The opportunity for abuse is just too great. Why should people be able to entertain themselves with a computer game instead of listening to a boring talk or lesson they have heard a million times before? But this gets at the real problem, I think. The problem is that people are bored to death at church and look for any way to alleviate the situation. If church were actually engaging and interesting, the problem would largely go away of its own accord. Telling people they can't use electronic devices is just an excuse to let the boredom continue rather than making any substantive change for the better. You got it. Church is way too boring and unengaging these days. I've taught in various capacities for years and each time I've found classes engaged I've had to basically scrap the stick to the manual stuff. The best thing we could do in classes is create an environment wherein the members can speak one with another about the welfare of their souls. The worst thing we can do is follow the manuals and ask how do you feel and how do we do better questions. Up until a couple of months ago I taught SS youth in our ward--our ward is such that the whole youth met together for SS. A lady teamed up and taught opposite me. She complained relentlessly about the kids using their cell phones. My son told me how she continually took his phone. My son seemed engaged and ready to go in my class. For me the kids, for the most part, were great and seemed really engaged. I could ask them all sorts of things and they were wanting to talk, express themselves, ask questions, learn, and share with each other. They released me months ago and I haven't had a calling since. But I will say the kids aren't enjoying SS. 1
Guest Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 In reality a rouge Bishop can destroy a Ward if he is of a mind. As for electronic devices, I fought carrying an IPad for years because of easy distractions. Now that I walk with a cane, heavy scriptures are difficult to carry, but temptation is a factor. Also, it is not because of boring talks, just easy access. I also wonder if everyone who keeps banging the key of boring speakers seems themselves as great speakers or just another bring drone? If going to Church is just another substitute for entertainment in the minds of members we are doomed. The point of having members speak is to help each person to grow in confidence and mighty in the Spirit...that is tough job with a room full of critics. Before my injury I traveled the State and Southest doing a lot of public speaking for organizations and continuing education. In the course of doing so (much less these days) people would often ask how I gained the confidence to speak before large numbers of people, my reply; in Church. I wonder at times how many out there would rather do away with that training program just for entertainment. Heck, maybe we should pay for Preachers like mega Churches do where all tithing goes to by million dollar mansions and gold toilets? Or even live bands, stand up comics and late night shows filled with profanity for the mor sophisticated members. Yeah, that's the ticket. 😜 Anyway, I have not been to a meeting is the last month that a cell phone did not ring during Sacrament prayers and at other times. At least an IPad being used for scriptures does not ring...oh wait mine can. Or maybe not have Bishop's to make any decisions, have committees and use popular votes, with door prizes for members who show up on Sunday. I think I am on to something...by no, not selling my soul today. Come on guys...lighten up on your fellow brothers and sisters. Make Church a place for quite reflection, which may come with less than entertaining moments from time to time, but allows for different takes and styles on familiar doctrines. This from someone who knows how quickly firery sermons and pounding of pulpits (with the occasional finger of scorn pointed at you) can wear just as thin on the nerves. And much faster. Sermon over. Peace.
Teancum Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 49 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I already indicated I would take it further up the line if need be. As this sort of thing is practically unheard of Churchwide, it's hard for me to think Church headquarters would bless it. By the way, I haven't said I wouldn't abide by it, but my compliance would come at the cost of my going higher authority with my concern. Odd that you would so readily question the inspiration and authority of a a local leader. Yet I highly doubt you would ever question anything with such vigor common from the FP and Q of 12. And if you disagree with your local bishop about a perceived abuse why not just ignore it? Why go up the chain? Can't you just decide yourself?
bcuzbcuz Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 41 minutes ago, Teancum said: Odd that you would so readily question the inspiration and authority of a a local leader. Yet I highly doubt you would ever question anything with such vigor common from the FP and Q of 12. And if you disagree with your local bishop about a perceived abuse why not just ignore it? Why go up the chain? Can't you just decide yourself? People who use their iPhones, iPads, smart phones, etc., during church meetings don't need a ban on usage, they need information about addiction. The church should publish qualified, researched, substantial information about the signs of addiction and how it applies to modern media usage. Anyone who can't handle 5 minutes of boredom has a real problem. As a school teacher and administrator for many, many years I have seen how the misuse of smart phones is a disease, a curse. We need much more than gentle urging from the pulpit.
consiglieri Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Whether or not Church meetings are boring is a separate issue from using electronic devices. And keeping yourself amused is the weakest excuse for using them. Sometimes it's a matter of life or death.
Gray Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 3 hours ago, consiglieri said: I have no problem with a bishop telling people to ditch their electronic devices completely from any church meetings. The opportunity for abuse is just too great. Why should people be able to entertain themselves with a computer game instead of listening to a boring talk or lesson they have heard a million times before? But this gets at the real problem, I think. The problem is that people are bored to death at church and look for any way to alleviate the situation. If church were actually engaging and interesting, the problem would largely go away of its own accord. Telling people they can't use electronic devices is just an excuse to let the boredom continue rather than making any substantive change for the better. We're never going to be more interesting. It's just not going to happen. But we can at least be brief. Make services short enough so that app therapy is no longer necessary! 1
Calm Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/02/keeping-safe-and-balanced-in-a-google-youtube-twitter-facebook-ieverything-world?lang=eng
Rain Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, sheilauk said: I think there needs to be a compromise. An outright ban is probably going too far, but encouraging people (even children) not to use them in Sacrament is okay. And I see no reason for anyone to have them whilst the sacrament is being passed. Last year, my Bishop, as part of keeping the Sabbath holy, asked adults not to use them in the Sacrament meeting but they are not "banned". I do sympathize with those adults who find it difficult to concentrate, I do too. So I make notes in a notebook which really helps me concentrate and listen. After all, the speakers have spent some time in preparing their talks, we should take the time to listen - its only just over an hour. The problem with electronic devices is that it is too easy to get lost in them and distracted to the point where you're not listening. I do have a tablet (no cell phone) but its not the same at helping me to listen though I do use it the other meetings to read/follow the lesson and find scriptures quickly. Even then, I make notes more than I use the tablet. (Not that it always works - there are times still when I drift off!). Everyone needs to find their own way I guess but I think we also need to be really honest with ourselves about whether or not we are using them as an aid or just to help us get through the meeting. And there seems to me to be no reason a Bishop can't raise the issue and ask us to think about our use of electronic devices. I'm a touch learner, then sight. Then hearing way down the line. I do have a hard time concentrating through the entire 3 hour block. I used to doodle to keep me listening, but was never very good at it so I didn't like it. I discovered coloring books on my phone and it's wonderful. Helps me listen better, helps me learn better through the touch. I don't use it in Sacrament meeting, but I would sure like to. My husband travels about 4 times a year to France. When going over he is traveling both Sat and Sun and misses church. There have been occasions when I was getting a lot out of talks, pulled out my phone, took notes by text and sent them to him. Sometimes he was on the plane, but often he is in his hotel room done for the day and appreciates me sending what was said. So I definitely have mixed feelings about phones in Sacrament meeting. I have relatives that have classic addiction signs with their phones. It would just have to be a matter of prayer for me. Edited June 25, 2016 by Rain
Calm Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 Might have some usefulquotes for discussing the subject: http://tech.lds.org/wiki/General_Authority_quotes_on_technology
Calm Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 Can't copy/paste but here are Church Handbook guidelines on use in callings: https://www.lds.org/pages/online-resources-for-church-callings?lang=eng
Calm Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 I assume this means Church: https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2015-08-004-connect-to-the-spirit-of-god?lang=eng
Calm Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 Last one: https://www.lds.org/media-library/using-media-for-lessons?lang=eng
ERMD Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 Lots of slings and arrows being directed at this bishop. I'm not going say whether he is right or wrong, but I do ask myself how many people piling on have served in the calling. Do people resort to electronics because church is interminably boring? Could be. I equate my Sunday church experiences and my temple experiences to the parable of the loaves and the fishes. No matter how much I eat, there are always baskets and baskets left over. If I leave hungry, and sometimes I do, it isn't because there was not a feast available.
Guest Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 52 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Sometimes it's a matter of life or death. Addition always is... When my son went on his mission he had serious problems with not having internet access. Many missionaries go through real withdrawal problems. Here in Hotlanta we used to miss the A/C during power outages, now it is A/C and Internet. I have a phone that opens and closes...no smart phone for me...not smart enough.
Robert F. Smith Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Too bad we can't rep Sister Lady Shanae. Is it because she is still a very new poster? Well, we could do the Whip & Nae Nae in her honor. instead: .
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