Bishop Bans Electronic Devices

[Rain]

13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So because some people (and you have no way of knowing whether it's 90 percent or something less than that) misuse the convenience, we're going to ban it outright? Doesn't that open a can of all manner of worms? Shall we forbid the use of the Internet because some use it for pornography or gambling or simply wasting time?

isn't the better approach to teach people the appropriate use of technology and then leave them to exercise wisdom on their own? Isn't that the spirit of Joseph Smith's statement "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves"?

Furthermore, I got the impression from the OP that the bishop is not just concerned about inappropriate use. Rather, he believes that the very presence of the devices in the chapel during sacrament meeting is "disrespectful" and not in keeping with the Sabbath. This strikes me as extremely subjective and ill-considered. 

Incidentally, in the meetings I attend, I observe little-to-none of what might be construed as game-playing or carrying on texting conversations. Perhaps it's because I'm focused on the spiritual content of the meeting as opposed to gazing around and forming judgments on what I suspect others are doing at the moment. 

Edited to add:

I see nothing wrong with your writing a memo to yourself about a quote relating to a talk (scarcely different than note taking) or even doing a web search on the spot for the quote  

 

 

Given that 6EQ has seen there is a problem with a handful of people in the ward we know there is some reason to be concerned.  We don't know how many are involved or not,  we don't know if it has disturbed other people or not,  we don't know the wording the bishop used, the problems or lack of problems it is creating etc., I will give the bishop the benefit of the doubt. It sounds like 6EQ is trying to do that as well though he is not sure where he will ultimately stand with it. 

Some time ago one of the bishopric spoke in our sacrament meeting.  He told of a a friend who was in another stake.  That stake president had spoken that women should not be wearing open toed shoes to church and might as well get rid of them.  The friend of our counselor said it was interesting to see the difference in obedience as some right away tossed their shoes and others said, "no way!" All I could think is, "did anyone take the middle road and think of asking the stake president for clarification?"

Well, somebody did ask him. His wife gently showed him her collection of dress open toed shoes and asked if this what he had meant. "No, these are nice shoes" he told her. "These are open toed shoes" she said (paraphrased). What he meant in his talk was flip flops should not be worn to church. 

So unless I got more info I wouldn't assume the bishop thinks cell phones mere presence is disrespectful. I actually wouldn't assume there was an outright ban right away. People don't communicate well all the time or sometimes they get more info and realize they have made a mistake.

I'm glad you can focus solely on the spiritual content.  What a great gift you have! One day I hope to get there as well. Till then, Disney movies, scrolling facebook screens etc. are likely to catch my attention, especially when the sound is on (rare,  but I have experienced that.)

Edit to add: There isn't a need to "form judgements on what I suspect others are doing" when I can see easily Harry Potter playing or other things. I find people are not as discrete with their cell phone use in sacrament meeting anymore. The judgement would come in as to whether the person should be doing that activity or not. 

Edited June 26, 2016 by Rain

[Thinking]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Incidentally, in the meetings I attend, I observe little-to-none of what might be construed as game-playing or carrying on texting conversations. Perhaps it's because I'm focused on the spiritual content of the meeting as opposed to gazing around and forming judgments on what I suspect others are doing at the moment.

Scott doesn't have peripheral vision.

[escott3564]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

You would choose to miss out on the blessings of taking the sacrament rather than not use electronics for an hour?

I'm a single parent. If I can't take my son with me, then yes. My son needs the iPad. Without it, he gets fidgety and we end up spending Sacrament Meeting in the hall. 

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, escott3564 said:

I'm a single parent. If I can't take my son with me, then yes. My son needs the iPad. Without it, he gets fidgety and we end up spending Sacrament Meeting in the hall. 

I'm sure that must be very hard.  My husband and I take turns being in the hall during each sacrament meeting because of our 3 and 1 year olds.  I can definitely sympathize.  I would be surprised if this bishop wasn't understanding of that if you truly felt you would have to stay home without an iPad.

[Thinking]

The bishop contacted the Danites, but they told him that he'd have to figure out his own solution to the problem.

[Antoni]

I totally agree with this Bishop. Today I saw far too many saints looking at non-church things on their pads/phones in all sessions. As YM 1st Counsellor the YM know not to use an electronic device during my lessons. It's amazing how their knowledge of and ability to navigate the scriptures has vastly improved over the last 9 months since using paper scriptures. Likewise they've learnt to use the Bible Dictionary and we're had all sorts of conversations about things in the scriptures like footnotes/cross references and the maps, which we never would have done using electronic versions.

For those saying they "need" these devices (for themselves or others) that's just nonsense. You need to learn to focus on the more important things and likewise teach others the same. Taking a quad to meeting is no real challenge, I always do and so use that if I need to look something up. We also need to sometimes accept we might well be bored in a sacrament meeting. Honestly I was today during parts, but that's how it is. Life sometimes is boring and I'd rather be bored than succumb to culture of instant pleasure and gratification that invades our lives from sources that are not of God.

I challenge those here to go to sacrament for 4 weeks without any electrical device and see if it's the unbearable burden you claim. 

If I was ever called as Bishop I would instigate a similar policy I feel - it would stop the most frustrating thing which is when people use iPads or worse phones for their talk notes and we have to sit their for an age whilst they "sort out their technical hitch / or find their place (whilst scrolling up and down frantically)"

My previous Bishop had a counsellor who used to spend sacrament meeting on his device, when I spoke to the Bishop about it he suddenly realised how disrespectful it looks (even if the counsellor was doing something that was related to his calling) and so made sure it didn't happen on the stand. That had a knock on effect on there rest of the congregation. 

I suppose it links in with the whole topic of reverence. As a convert to the church of several years now, the lack of reverence and just common courtesy in meetings is still something that jars with me far too often. 

 

Light, Love and Peace

D

[6EQUJ5]

I had a chance to discuss this with a member of the Stake High Council.  I asked him if the Stake President was aware of policy and if he approved.  He told me that our Stake President was aware and had no objections.  So it looks like the bishop is acting with the consent of the SP.  

But I guess the bishop received a lot of complaints from ward members.  Particularly those with kids.  At Church today they piped sacrament meeting audio into the RS room and the bishop announced that those who needed to use their devices were welcome to enjoy the meeting from there.  I think the sacrament was brought to the room.  Not sure if this is a great solution but it will be interesting to see how many people attend the meeting in the RS room next week.

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I use the scriptures on my phone during church. Beats carrying around the quad.

[Calm]

Some people don't carry scriptures because of physical limitations even if not for health reasons, for example with my babies adding a quad to their poundage and a diaper bag was too much.  I have seen young mothers and older ones too who need both hands and arms as well to keep their kids moving in the right direction that don't need heavy scriptures to slow them down or to add to the back pain from lugging kid essentials around.  Guys don't have the option to get a massively huge purse to put them in so if they are on kid duty, that can be problematic.  Add to those members who use canes or walkers, juggling scriptures can be very problematic.  

In the past the solution was to not bother with them.  I wonder if the choice is between some or none, what leaders would prefer. 

I don't see as many kids bringing their own scriptures to church and I find that sad as having their own scriptures was very impotant to the kids I taught.  Hopefully I just am not as aware being out of Primary.

[bluebell]

48 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

I had a chance to discuss this with a member of the Stake High Council.  I asked him if the Stake President was aware of policy and if he approved.  He told me that our Stake President was aware and had no objections.  So it looks like the bishop is acting with the consent of the SP.  

But I guess the bishop received a lot of complaints from ward members.  Particularly those with kids.  At Church today they piped sacrament meeting audio into the RS room and the bishop announced that those who needed to use their devices were welcome to enjoy the meeting from there.  I think the sacrament was brought to the room.  Not sure if this is a great solution but it will be interesting to see how many people attend the meeting in the RS room next week.

 

I don't that it's a great compromise either. Being a mom with loud kids is already isolating at church (because you spend a lot of time on the outside of meetings because they are being disruptive).  Prohibiting them from being in the chapel with an electronic device might add insult to injury. 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

13 hours ago, Rain said:

Given that 6EQ has seen there is a problem with a handful of people in the ward we know there is some reason to be concerned.  We don't know how many are involved or not,  we don't know if it has disturbed other people or not,  we don't know the wording the bishop used, the problems or lack of problems it is creating etc., I will give the bishop the benefit of the doubt. It sounds like 6EQ is trying to do that as well though he is not sure where he will ultimately stand with it. 

Some time ago one of the bishopric spoke in our sacrament meeting.  He told of a a friend who was in another stake.  That stake president had spoken that women should not be wearing open toed shoes to church and might as well get rid of them.  The friend of our counselor said it was interesting to see the difference in obedience as some right away tossed their shoes and others said, "no way!" All I could think is, "did anyone take the middle road and think of asking the stake president for clarification?"

Well, somebody did ask him. His wife gently showed him her collection of dress open toed shoes and asked if this what he had meant. "No, these are nice shoes" he told her. "These are open toed shoes" she said (paraphrased). What he meant in his talk was flip flops should not be worn to church. 

So unless I got more info I wouldn't assume the bishop thinks cell phones mere presence is disrespectful. I actually wouldn't assume there was an outright ban right away. People don't communicate well all the time or sometimes they get more info and realize they have made a mistake.

I'm glad you can focus solely on the spiritual content.  What a great gift you have! One day I hope to get there as well. Till then, Disney movies, scrolling facebook screens etc. are likely to catch my attention, especially when the sound is on (rare,  but I have experienced that.)

Edit to add: There isn't a need to "form judgements on what I suspect others are doing" when I can see easily Harry Potter playing or other things. I find people are not as discrete with their cell phone use in sacrament meeting anymore. The judgement would come in as to whether the person should be doing that activity or not. 

That's a great story about the open-toed shoes and it illustrates a valuable lesson. 

You will notice I have not advocated outright defiance. I have said if I were in that situation I would approach the bishop in private and, in as gentle a tone as I could muster, tell him the directive doesn't seem right to me and inform him of my intention to take the matter to higher authority. (Those who know me well will tell you I don't fit the mold of a firebrand, despite how I may come across on this board.)

I take your point about not having all the facts, but for the purpose of discussion here, I can only assume 6EQ has reported the matter accurately and that the bishop deems the very presence of electronic devices in the chapel -- not just their inappropriate use -- as "disrespectful" and out of keeping with the Sabbath. I say again that strikes me as extremely subjective and a less than rational reason for imposing a highly irregular and restrictive edict on everyone. 

And yes, even if I crane my neck or stand up and look around, it is rare that I can spot what's on someone's screen well enough to tell what he/she is doing with the device. 

I lead the singing in sacrament meeting. That gives me a birds-eye view of the congregation as I sit up front. So today, with this thread in mind, I looked more diligently than is typical with me. I did not observe a single device in use during the meeting, for any reason. And I know many of us have them and bring them to church for appropriate use. 

Edited June 26, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't that it's a great compromise either. Being a mom with loud kids is already isolating at church (because you spend a lot of time on the outside of meetings because they are being disruptive).  Prohibiting them from being in the chapel with an electronic device might add insult to injury. 

 

And removing the children from the reverent setting makes it harder to teach them correct principles imo.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

I had a chance to discuss this with a member of the Stake High Council.  I asked him if the Stake President was aware of policy and if he approved.  He told me that our Stake President was aware and had no objections.  So it looks like the bishop is acting with the consent of the SP.  

But I guess the bishop received a lot of complaints from ward members.  Particularly those with kids.  At Church today they piped sacrament meeting audio into the RS room and the bishop announced that those who needed to use their devices were welcome to enjoy the meeting from there.  I think the sacrament was brought to the room.  Not sure if this is a great solution but it will be interesting to see how many people attend the meeting in the RS room next week.

 

So if they don't like the edict they are exiled to the Relief Society room. What a warm and welcoming environment, especially for newcomers, visitors or those who might be returning to activity. 

Well, at least he's not barring them outright. I'm certain he couldn't get away with that.

P.S. I wonder how accepting the stake president will be if he learns there are a lot of people unhappy with the ban -- or it becomes standing room only in the Relief Society room with a half-empty chapel!

Edited June 26, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So if they don't like the edict they are exiled to the Relief Society room. What a warm and welcoming environment, especially for newcomers, visitors or those who might be returning to activity. 

Well, at least he's not barring them outright. I'm certain he couldn't get away with that. 

It could be worse. Our bishop in our BYU student ward when we were first married told us that the Lord forbids the purchase and use of lingerie by married couples. Men who bought such things for their wives were exercising unrighteous dominion. 

[cynth]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It could be worse. Our bishop in our BYU student ward when we were first married told us that the Lord forbids the purchase and use of lingerie by married couples. Men who bought such things for their wives were exercising unrighteous dominion. 

!!!! wow. That's a lot of control. 

Re: visitors, I don't think it would be a problem.  If I were visiting a church and was told the rule was no electronic device use in the chapel, out of respect for the congregation I was visiting I would follow the rule.  Who would be rude enough to visit a place, but insist on defying their rules?

[cynth]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 11:07 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

Local leaders sometimes go off the rails in the things they require and need to be corrected.

Last year, a stake president in Boston decided on his own he was going to shorten the meeting block time by an hour. Church headquarters shut down that initiative literally within hours after it surfaced. 

Then I'm sure we'll hear soon enough of a correction, if it is deemed necessary, to this Bishop's electronics policy.

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, cynth said:

!!!! wow. That's a lot of control. 

Re: visitors, I don't think it would be a problem.  If I were visiting a church and was told the rule was no electronic device use in the chapel, out of respect for the congregation I was visiting I would follow the rule.  Who would be rude enough to visit a place, but insist on defying their rules?

The two times in my life when I saw a bishop become overly emotional was when that bishop denounced lingerie and when the guy in Texas forbade the use of the RS room for anything other than Relief Society. 

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

The two times in my life when I saw a bishop become overly emotional was when that bishop denounced lingerie and when the guy in Texas forbade the use of the RS room for anything other than Relief Society. 

Like I said: Captain Qweeg. 

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, cynth said:

Then I'm sure we'll hear soon enough of a correction, if it is deemed necessary, to this Bishop's electronics policy.

Not necessarily. It may remain in relative obscurity -- unless it becomes a fad. I hope to high heaven it doesn't. 

[Scott Lloyd]

24 minutes ago, cynth said:

!!!! wow. That's a lot of control. 

Re: visitors, I don't think it would be a problem.  If I were visiting a church and was told the rule was no electronic device use in the chapel, out of respect for the congregation I was visiting I would follow the rule.  Who would be rude enough to visit a place, but insist on defying their rules?

A visitor might not know about it at first, then have to endure the embarrassment of being told his damnable device is not welcome in meeting. 

[jkwilliams]

16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Like I said: Captain Qweeg. 

I guess we were twice blessed with Captain Queegs. 

[cynth]

18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

A visitor might not know about it at first, then have to endure the embarrassment of being told his damnable device is not welcome in meeting. 

You're kidding, you mean someone would approach a visitor during a meeting?  Who would do such a rude thing?!?   If you mean a visitor was told quietly after a meeting, different issue, who would be embarrassed by that?  what embarrassment are you talking about?

[escott3564]

4 hours ago, Antoni said:

I totally agree with this Bishop. Today I saw far too many saints looking at non-church things on their pads/phones in all sessions. As YM 1st Counsellor the YM know not to use an electronic device during my lessons. It's amazing how their knowledge of and ability to navigate the scriptures has vastly improved over the last 9 months since using paper scriptures. Likewise they've learnt to use the Bible Dictionary and we're had all sorts of conversations about things in the scriptures like footnotes/cross references and the maps, which we never would have done using electronic versions.

For those saying they "need" these devices (for themselves or others) that's just nonsense. You need to learn to focus on the more important things and likewise teach others the same. Taking a quad to meeting is no real challenge, I always do and so use that if I need to look something up. We also need to sometimes accept we might well be bored in a sacrament meeting. Honestly I was today during parts, but that's how it is. Life sometimes is boring and I'd rather be bored than succumb to culture of instant pleasure and gratification that invades our lives from sources that are not of God.

I challenge those here to go to sacrament for 4 weeks without any electrical device and see if it's the unbearable burden you claim. 

If I was ever called as Bishop I would instigate a similar policy I feel - it would stop the most frustrating thing which is when people use iPads or worse phones for their talk notes and we have to sit their for an age whilst they "sort out their technical hitch / or find their place (whilst scrolling up and down frantically)"

My previous Bishop had a counsellor who used to spend sacrament meeting on his device, when I spoke to the Bishop about it he suddenly realised how disrespectful it looks (even if the counsellor was doing something that was related to his calling) and so made sure it didn't happen on the stand. That had a knock on effect on there rest of the congregation. 

I suppose it links in with the whole topic of reverence. As a convert to the church of several years now, the lack of reverence and just common courtesy in meetings is still something that jars with me far too often. 

 

Light, Love and Peace

D

Thank goodness you're not my bishop. You are not taking mothers and kids with special needs into consideration. 

[mfbukowski]

Our stake president addressed us today on notes from his tablet, while other took notes on theirs.

OOPS.

Burn him at the stake.  Clearly it should have been written with a quill pen on parchment.

[cynth]

1 hour ago, escott3564 said:

Thank goodness you're not my bishop. You are not taking mothers and kids with special needs into consideration. 

That's an interesting point, about parents and kids.  When my boys were young, our parish had a soundproofed room off the side of the chapel, with a full glass wall.  It was such a relief to sit there, to be able to fully observe, hear, and participate in the mass, but know that I didn't have to attempt the impossible keeping a newborn and a toddler unrealistically still and quiet for the length of a service.  We (both my husband and I sat there, as a family) treated it like the chapel, sat in chairs with the children, so the service was fully a part of their experience but we did not make the experience difficult for anyone else.  Eventually, the room was no longer needed and we moved into the chapel.  It was a perfect compromise and kept our Sabbath experience peaceful and meaningful, both for us and for all those without children.  I sincerely appreciated whoever created that room, it was a Godsend, truly!!