How much influence did the LDS Church have on California Prop 8?

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, canard78 said:

Despite the tide being well and truly against them, even now, they continue to fight and expect their members to go down fighting with them. 

Reminds me of a certain Galilean preacher who, despite having the tide of Jewish sentiment and the Roman administration well and truly against Him, still expected His disciples to continue fighting and, if necessary, to go down with Him. Silly losers.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[california boy]

43 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Reminds me of a certain Galilean preacher who, despite having the tide of Jewish sentiment and the Roman administration well and truly against Him, still expected His disciples to continue fighting and, if necessary, to go down with Him. Silly losers.

I don't think that Galilean preacher you speak of was trying to impose his religious beliefs on others by passing laws that took away others civil rights.  I never ever  remember a message he gave that supported the idea of forcing others through rule of law to live by his teachings  I agree with teaching all who will listen to your religious beliefs.  I hope the Mormon church continues to preach and set a good example for the beliefs they support.  But forcing their beliefs on others?  Not so much.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

The people of California ... voted to take away the civil rights of Americans ... This is about the church attacking the civil rights of gay Americans ... There is NO excuse for working to taking away anyone's civil rights.

 

9 minutes ago, california boy said:

I don't think that Galilean preacher you speak of was trying to impose his religious beliefs on others by passing laws that took away others civil rights.

Despite clearly not grasping that Jesus didn't live in a representative democracy, you've certainly mastered your sole talking point. Well done!

[california boy]

49 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

Despite clearly not grasping that Jesus didn't live in a representative democracy, you've certainly mastered your sole talking point. Well done!

yes,  It is a point I don't want those who participated in that happening to ever forget.  Especially since this is the same church that itself was a victim of such assaults on their civil rights.  They didn't seem to appreciate it happening to them either.  And they still talk about it 150 years after it happened to them.  Why would I stop talking about it only 8 years later.

[Hamba Tuhan]

17 minutes ago, california boy said:

yes,  It is a point I don't want those who participated in that happening to ever forget.

Clearly.

I don't live in America, however, so I'm a bit out of the loop. Could you please tell me when exactly you obtained this particular 'civil right' that Church members sought to take away from you?

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Clearly.

I don't live in America, however, so I'm a bit out of the loop. Could you please tell me when exactly you obtained this particular 'civil right' that Church members sought to take away from you?

Sure.  No problem.  I will gladly enlighten you.  The American Constitution guarantees equal protection under the law for all citizens.  We call such guarantees Civil Rights.  Prior to prop 8, that civil right was affirmed by the Supreme Court of California.  The right for gays to marry was legal in the state of California.  Then the Mormon church and others thought they could cook up a way to prevent gays from having that legal right.  So along came prop 8 which by vote temporally suspended that civil rights.  The proposition was taken to court and the district judge ruled that under our constitution civil rights can not be taken away by a vote of the people.  We call that protecting the tyranny of the majority on the minority.  That ruling was appealed to the federal courts.  They also affirmed that under equal protection clause of the US constitution, the civil rights of gays had been violated.  Since then virtually EVERY federal and district court has ruled that not allowing gay marriage was a violation of their civil rights.  Even Mormon judges realized the travesty of justice the church supported.  This issue culminated with the Supreme Court of the United States also affirming the civil rights of gay couples.  Rarely is a legal issue so clear that virtually every federal court in the country agrees with those constitutional protections.  

When were those civil rights given to gay couples?  The same time Mormons were given the right to have their civil rights protected.  When the constitution of the United States was established.  Those civil rights existed long before there was even a Mormon church.

 

Edited May 21, 2016 by california boy

[rodheadlee]

52 minutes ago, california boy said:

Sure.  No problem.  I will gladly enlighten you.  The American Constitution guarantees equal protection under the law for all citizens.

It does no such thing. If you have a pot prescription in CA and you have pot on a boat, that you live on, the feds can come and take your boat and sell it for gain and keep the money or send it to the crusher. If you live in a house they can do no such thing. The day you move on to a boat you give up your search and seizure rights. We do not have the same rights as a homeowner. Then there is the whole liveaboard thing, I am not guaranteed access to a berth just the same as a non live aboard.

Edited May 21, 2016 by rodheadlee

[california boy]

7 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

It does no such thing. If you have a pot prescription in CA and you have pot on a boat, that you live on, the feds can come and take your boat and sell it for gain and keep the money or send it to the crusher. If you live in a house they can do no such thing. The day you move on to a boat you give up your search and seizure rights. We do not have the same rights as a homeowner. Then there is the whole liveaboard thing, I am not guaranteed access to a berth just the same as a non live aboard.

Your legal opinion is duly noted. In regards to civil rights of gays to marry, the fact that every federal judge in the country as well as the Supreme Court of the United States does fortunately have more legal weight.

Edited May 21, 2016 by california boy

[Storm Rider]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

yes,  It is a point I don't want those who participated in that happening to ever forget.  Especially since this is the same church that itself was a victim of such assaults on their civil rights.  They didn't seem to appreciate it happening to them either.  And they still talk about it 150 years after it happened to them.  Why would I stop talking about it only 8 years later.

I understand your position to ensure that all those, particularly the Mormon Church, never forget that they supported, strongly supported, Prop 8.  Though the Mormon Church may play scapegoat for many people - which I am sure the Church finds perfectly acceptable - what is clear is that the impact of the Church on Prop 8 was not what swung the electorate to support Prop 8.  The reason the populace supported Prop 8 is that they wanted and accepted what Prop 8 stood for.  Those reasons may coincide with what the Mormon Church teaches, but they did not arrive at that conclusion because of the Mormon Church.  

I don't think you should stop talking about it, but I do think you could do a better job of framing what the Church did and did not do.  I wish the Church had as much strength as many gay activists want to portray, but the reality is quite different.  We remain an incredibly small part of the American electorate and cultural fabric. 

[california boy]

28 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I understand your position to ensure that all those, particularly the Mormon Church, never forget that they supported, strongly supported, Prop 8.  Though the Mormon Church may play scapegoat for many people - which I am sure the Church finds perfectly acceptable - what is clear is that the impact of the Church on Prop 8 was not what swung the electorate to support Prop 8.  The reason the populace supported Prop 8 is that they wanted and accepted what Prop 8 stood for.  Those reasons may coincide with what the Mormon Church teaches, but they did not arrive at that conclusion because of the Mormon Church.  

I don't think you should stop talking about it, but I do think you could do a better job of framing what the Church did and did not do.  I wish the Church had as much strength as many gay activists want to portray, but the reality is quite different.  We remain an incredibly small part of the American electorate and cultural fabric. 

Like I said in the previous post.  

Quote

For me, this is not about winning or loosing prop 8  this is about the church attacking the civil rights of gay Americans  I would be just as upset at the church if prop 8 had lost  There is NO excuse for working to taking away anyone's civil rights, especially by a church that had so much persecution and attacks on there civil rights  The persecuted become the persecuters  That is what is shameful and sadly, the church is still targeting gay families  it grieves me that a church I loved has decided to pursue this path  

One may argue about the distortion, lies, fear that the Yes on Prop 8 presented in their campaign largely financed by the church members. No one is suggestion that wasn't a very successful way to win the vote.  It makes no difference to me.  The fact that the church was involved in this stripping of another's civil rights is what should never be forgotten.  Just like the stripping of civil rights of early church members by Governor Boggs and others who should have been the very people protecting those civil rights should never be forgotten. 

Think for a moment how different many peoples attitudes towards the church would be if the church would have publicly issues a statement affirming it's opposition to SSM and homosexual relationships as being sinful.  BUT that does not give anyone the right to strip those Americans of their civil rights that the courts in California had already confirmed. If the church would have stood up and renounced this effort, reminded others of the time in their early history where those who should have protected early church members failed them.    That would have been a game changer in my mind.  Think about how much more open thousands would have been towards receiving the gospel message.

Edited May 21, 2016 by california boy

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Do you think a stake high council has ever made a wrong decision when they felt led by the spirit? What about a ward council? If they believe a decision was inspired, can they be mistaken or must they be lying?

I think that it would definitely be a lot easier to make mistakes in terms of inspiration while in a group than when each member of the group is alone trying to get personal inspiration on the subject. 

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Is it any easier to believe generations of apostles and prophets got the priesthood ban wrong?  If you read the essay, it seems like that was apparently the case.

I've read the essay and had this discussion previously when it was first released. As I read it, I'm not convinced the essay is saying that the ban was wrong. 

 

[cinepro]

54 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I've read the essay and had this discussion previously when it was first released. As I read it, I'm not convinced the essay is saying that the ban was wrong. 

 

The essay appears to be written in such a way that you can believe whatever you want and think the essay is supporting your view.

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, california boy said:

Well actually there are Mormons who are claiming that the church played a very small role in passing prop 8. Robertsmith claimed that very thing in the now closed thread. That kind of claim is complete BS

So any unsubstantiated claim that the LDS Church had the largest role in passing Prop 8 is to be given automatic status as the truth.  No balanced or factual assessment is even possible.

i don't blame the whole disaster of passing prop 8 on the church. Many others were also involved. The no on prop 8 did a poor job of letting the prop 8 campaign get away with a campaign of lies and fear  the people of California who voted to take away the civil rights of Americans all have to share that wrong

Well, at least you now admit that others were involved, even though you insist that the Prop 8 campaign was based only on lies and fear.  Was that really what Prop 8 was about?  I heard no lies or fear-mongering, and I was there.

You also claim that passage of Prop 8 was a disaster.  Howso?  A sage and calm assessment would see it as a great victory for homosexual rights, since it directly resulted in Supreme Court affirmation of such rights.  Is that why you are so infuriated?  The gargantuan LDS gang did you a favor, and now you are bitter?  You should be smiling broadly from ear to ear.  

For me, this is not about winning or loosing prop 8  this is about the church attacking the civil rights of gay Americans  I would be just as upset at the church if prop 8 had lost  There is NO excuse for working to taking away anyone's civil rights, especially by a church that had so much persecution and attacks on there civil rights  The persecuted become the persecuters  That is what is shameful and sadly, the church is still targeting gay families  it grieves me that a church I loved has decided to pursue this path  

It is so sad that you continue to pursue the blame game, attacking the LDS Church, with lies and fear.  And without a balanced assessment.

 

[juliann]

13 hours ago, california boy said:

 

i don't blame the whole disaster of passing prop 8 on the church. Many others were also involved. The no on prop 8 did a poor job of letting the prop 8 campaign get away with a campaign of lies and fear  the people of California who voted to take away the civil rights of Americans all have to share that wrong

For me, this is not about winning or loosing prop 8  this is about the church attacking the civil rights of gay Americans  I would be just as upset at the church if prop 8 had lost  There is NO excuse for working to taking away anyone's civil rights, especially by a church that had so much persecution and attacks on there civil rights  The persecuted become the persecuters  That is what is shameful and sadly, the church is still targeting gay families  it grieves me that a church I loved has decided to pursue this path  

 

 

First, it wasn't seen as a civil right at that time.  That is why it was being determined by an election. Don't you think it was Prop 8 that propelled the court decisions that followed? In one sense you should be glad for the whole thing.

Second, you simply can't win with the "lies" stuff. Again, this was a win no one thought would happen. What the pro-Prop people did was expose the disinformation being put forth in ads. I am pretty sure that it was the Two Mommies (or whatever title) book being read to children after the anti-Prop people made bald faced claims that nothing would change in schools. It was devastating but only because of the claim that it wasn't happening. I also remember the ad from the CA Superintendent of Schools claiming that teaching about marriage in school wasn't required when those teachings were on his own website. I still scratch my head over that one. And of course, the infamous field trip to a lesbian wedding in one school amidst the claims that none of this would be in CA schools. The anti folk literally shot themselves in the foot over and over with in your face untruths...so blatantly that the pro folks simply rounded up examples of what they said wouldn't happen that was and threw it in ads. 

They lost a winnable election and it wasn't through "lies."  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/03/26/how-proposition-8-passed-in-california-and-why-it-wouldnt-today/   Notice there is no mention of Mormons here. 

Quote

 

All five of California's most populous counties -- Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside, San Bernadino and San Diego -- voted in favor of Prop. 8 even as Obama was carrying four of the five in the presidential race.

Los Angeles County -- the state's most populous -- is particularly interesting to look at. In LA County, Prop. 8 won a narrow majority of 50.1 percent. But, President Obama carried the county with a whopping 69 percent.

The discrepancy?  African American voters, who were overwhelmingly in favor of banning same sex marriage (70 percent supported Proposition 8) even as they supported Obama even more heavily (94 percent).  And, to a lesser degree, Hispanic voters followed that same trend -- backing Prop. 8 by a 53 percent to 47 percent margin while giving President Obama 74 percent.

The explanation? Many largely black churches supported Prop. 8 while Hispanics, a heavily Catholic community, were more naturally inclined to side with their faith -- and against gay marriage.

 

I don't see the point in revisionism. It should be a learning experience, even though painful. Obviously, the gay movement did learn from it and subsequently changed many minds.

Edited May 21, 2016 by juliann

[bluebell]

53 minutes ago, cinepro said:

The essay appears to be written in such a way that you can believe whatever you want and think the essay is supporting your view.

I don't think that's exactly true.  If someone wanted to believe the explanations for the ban that were given saying that black people were less valiant in the pre-existence, for example, the essay directly contradicts that belief as being doctrine.

[Damien the Leper]

The lies of Prop 8:

 

[cinepro]

21 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So any unsubstantiated claim that the LDS Church had the largest role in passing Prop 8 is to be given automatic status as the truth.  No balanced or factual assessment is even possible.

Well, at least you now admit that others were involved, even though you insist that the Prop 8 campaign was based only on lies and fear.  Was that really what Prop 8 was about?  I heard no lies or fear-mongering, and I was there.

You also claim that passage of Prop 8 was a disaster.  Howso?  A sage and calm assessment would see it as a great victory for homosexual rights, since it directly resulted in Supreme Court affirmation of such rights.  Is that why you are so infuriated?  The gargantuan LDS gang did you a favor, and now you are bitter?  You should be smiling broadly from ear to ear.  

Robert, if you don't agree that the LDS Church had the largest role in passing Prop 8, which other religion or group do you think had a larger role? 

And he didn't say "solely on lies and fear".  I don't know about "lies", but there was definitely an undercurrent of fear about what would happen to society and religious rights if gays could legally marry.  For example, if someone says "Legalized gay marriage would allow the government to force Bishops to officiate gay weddings", isn't that an argument based on fear?

I think the "sage and calm assessment" is that Prop 8 was a failure (it turned out to be a huge investment of time and money for a relatively short delay in homosexual marriage becoming legal.)  Only to the degree that the initiative hastened the resolution in the Supreme Court and helped turn public opinion in favor of SSM in general, as well as fostering ill-will towards the Church, could it be considered a "disaster."

 

[juliann]

27 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Robert, if you don't agree that the LDS Church had the largest role in passing Prop 8, which other religion or group do you think had a larger role? 

 

 

I think you have to distinguish between influence and vote. They are different things and you are conflating them. It's not that hard to Google articles from that time, folks. http://articles.latimes.com/2008/nov/08/local/me-gayblack8  The split was so bad that anti Prop leaders feared alienating the black community.

Quote

On Friday, four leaders of the No-on-8 campaign put out a statement urging cooperation among groups around the issue. "We achieve nothing if we isolate the people who did not stand with us in this fight," the statement said. "We only further divide our state if we attempt to blame people of faith, African American voters, rural communities and others for this loss."

  

[Storm Rider]

34 minutes ago, juliann said:

I think you have to distinguish between influence and vote. They are different things and you are conflating them. It's not that hard to Google articles from that time, folks. http://articles.latimes.com/2008/nov/08/local/me-gayblack8  The split was so bad that anti Prop leaders feared alienating the black community.

On Friday, four leaders of the No-on-8 campaign put out a statement urging cooperation among groups around the issue. "We achieve nothing if we isolate the people who did not stand with us in this fight," the statement said. "We only further divide our state if we attempt to blame people of faith, African American voters, rural communities and others for this loss."   

So they could not blame people of faith (whose faith I would ask?), the black community, rural communities, and everyone else, BUT we can blame the Mormons because they were brain washed everyone into voting for Prop 8?!?  It is just not logical and yet that same group wants to push this as if it is the truth.  The Mormon population of less than 2% of the entire California population was the deciding factor?  If you believe that I have some waterfront property to sell you in Kansas - it has great views of the Pacific Ocean.  

[jkwilliams]

This is fascinating. The claim was that church members played a minuscule role in the Yes on 8 campaign. Now we're being told that if we think its role was more than minuscule, we are saying it was "the deciding factor." As far as straw men go, that's one for the ages. 

[california boy]

 

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So any unsubstantiated claim that the LDS Church had the largest role in passing Prop 8 is to be given automatic status as the truth.  No balanced or factual assessment is even possible.

Ok Robert.  Time to put up or shut up on your ridiculous claim.  Name ONE organization that contributed more time and money to the Yes on Prop 8 campaign than the Mormon Church.  If fact, name ONE organization that came even close to contributing more time and money to the Yes on Prop 8 campaign.  

Well, at least you now admit that others were involved, even though you insist that the Prop 8 campaign was based only on lies and fear.  Was that really what Prop 8 was about?  I heard no lies or fear-mongering, and I was there.

I never claimed that the church was the only group involved did I.  What I claimed and what is fact is that the church contributed more time and money by far than any other group.  That is what substantial involvement means.  A fact you have not been able to dispute.  

Valentines has provided a video that talks about some of those distortions and fear mongering done by the Yes on Prop 8 campaign. Would you like more examples?  

You also claim that passage of Prop 8 was a disaster.  Howso?  A sage and calm assessment would see it as a great victory for homosexual rights, since it directly resulted in Supreme Court affirmation of such rights.  Is that why you are so infuriated?  The gargantuan LDS gang did you a favor, and now you are bitter?  You should be smiling broadly from ear to ear.  

WHY CAN'T YOU READ MY POSTS.  THIS IS WHY I AM INFURIATED AT THE CHURCH FOR SUPPORTING PROP 8....I will once again post it for  you.  This is now the THIRD time I have explained myself.

For me, this is not about winning or loosing prop 8  this is about the church attacking the civil rights of gay Americans  I would be just as upset at the church if prop 8 had lost  There is NO excuse for working to taking away anyone's civil rights, especially by a church that had so much persecution and attacks on there civil rights  The persecuted become the persecuters  That is what is shameful and sadly, the church is still targeting gay families  it grieves me that a church I loved has decided to pursue this path  

It is so sad that you continue to pursue the blame game, attacking the LDS Church, with lies and fear.  And without a balanced assessment.

What is sad is that the church decided to take on a campaign to take away the civil rights of gay Americans.  Show me one lie that I have stated.  ONE LIE.  Tell me a single post that I have not stated only facts.

 

[Jeanne]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

Sure.  No problem.  I will gladly enlighten you.  The American Constitution guarantees equal protection under the law for all citizens.  We call such guarantees Civil Rights.  Prior to prop 8, that civil right was affirmed by the Supreme Court of California.  The right for gays to marry was legal in the state of California.  Then the Mormon church and others thought they could cook up a way to prevent gays from having that legal right.  So along came prop 8 which by vote temporally suspended that civil rights.  The proposition was taken to court and the district judge ruled that under our constitution civil rights can not be taken away by a vote of the people.  We call that protecting the tyranny of the majority on the minority.  That ruling was appealed to the federal courts.  They also affirmed that under equal protection clause of the US constitution, the civil rights of gays had been violated.  Since then virtually EVERY federal and district court has ruled that not allowing gay marriage was a violation of their civil rights.  Even Mormon judges realized the travesty of justice the church supported.  This issue culminated with the Supreme Court of the United States also affirming the civil rights of gay couples.  Rarely is a legal issue so clear that virtually every federal court in the country agrees with those constitutional protections.  

When were those civil rights given to gay couples?  The same time Mormons were given the right to have their civil rights protected.  When the constitution of the United States was established.  Those civil rights existed long before there was even a Mormon church.

 

Would you please run for president???  Please???

[california boy]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

First, it wasn't seen as a civil right at that time.  That is why it was being determined by an election. Don't you think it was Prop 8 that propelled the court decisions that followed? In one sense you should be glad for the whole thing.

Well this is not a true statement.  I worked on the No on Prop 8 campaign.  My sole reason for working on the campaign Is because this proposition was completely about taking away the civil rights of gay couples.  The California Supreme Court had already ruled that Prop 22 violated the rights guaranteed by California Constitution.  Every phone call I made, I talked to the people about how Prop 8 was a violation of civil rights.  To pretend that was not the issue and was not central to the No on Prop 8 campaign is not true.  Do you think that if the church was considering entering into the Prop 8 campaign they might have first asked a few judges whether the claim that the No on Prop 8 was making was true?  When you have every federal court in the country declare that banning gays from marrying was a violation of their civil rights, it is very hard to believe that this issue at least legally not even a question that it violated the civil rights of gays..

I was one of the first to acknowledge that passing Prop 8 is probably the most single galvanizing event that changed people's opinion about gay marriage.  I actually started a thread on this issue thanking the church for its role in passing Prop 8.  Do you want to know what happened on this very board?  The thread was closed and for the first and only time, I was put on limited use for suggesting such a thing.  Too early I guess.  That was never the issue for me.  I have said repeatedly,  the passing or failure of Prop 8 is not what I am upset about.  What bothers me is that the church was involved in working to take away someone's civil rights.  That is what is deplorable.

I actually could care less about gay marriage.  Me and my partner have never gotten married even though it is now legal for me to do so.  That wasn't the issue for me.  For me, it was never about gay marriage.  The issue was California voting on whether to take away the civil rights of a minority.  I would like to think that I would work just as hard on any election campaign that sought to take away anyone's civil rights.  I would wish that every member of the church would also fight for other minorities civil rights.  Certainly the church knows what it is like to have it's members civil rights taken from them. The church was very grateful for those very few people who stood up for them against an unjust government action.   You would think the church would be the very group standing up for others whose rights were being put to a vote.  Sadly, that did not happen.  This time, the church counted itself with those that wished to take away the civil rights of others.

Edited May 21, 2016 by california boy

[california boy]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

First, it wasn't seen as a civil right at that time.  That is why it was being determined by an election. Don't you think it was Prop 8 that propelled the court decisions that followed? In one sense you should be glad for the whole thing.

Well this is not a true statement.  I worked on the No on Prop 8 campaign.  My sole reason for working on the campaign Is because this proposition was completely about taking away the civil rights of gay couples.  The California Supreme Court had already ruled that Prop 22 violated the rights guaranteed by California Constitution.  Every phone call I made, I talked to the people about how Prop 8 was a violation of civil rights.  To pretend that was not the issue and was not central to the No on Prop 8 campaign is not true.  Do you think that if the church was considering entering into the Prop 8 campaign they might have first asked a few judges whether the claim that the No on Prop 8 was making was true?  When you have every federal court in the country declare that banning gays from marrying was a violation of their civil rights, it is very hard to believe that without question, this issue violated the civil rights of gays..

I was one of the first to acknowledge that passing Prop 8 is probably the most single galvanizing event that changed people's opinion about gay marriage.  I actually started a thread on this issue thanking the church for its role in passing gay marriage.  Do you want to know what happened on this very board?  The thread was closed and for the first and only time, I was put on limited use for suggesting such a thing.  Too early I guess.  That was never the issue for me.  I have said repeatedly,  the passing or failure of Prop 8 is not what I am upset about.  What bothers me is that the church was involved in working to take away someone's civil rights.  That is what is deplorable.

I actually could care less about gay marriage.  Me and my partner have never gotten married even though it is now legal for me to do so.  That was never the issue for me.  For me, it was never about gay marriage.  The issue was California voting on whether to take away the civil rights of a minority.  I would like to think that I would work just as hard on any election campaign that sought to take away anyone's civil rights.  I would wish that every member of the church would also fight for other minorities civil rights.  Certainly the church knows what it is like to have it's members civil rights taken from them. The church was very grateful for those very few people who stood up for them against an unjust government action.   You would think the church would be the very group standing up for others whose rights were being put to a vote.  Sadly, that did not happen.  This time, the church counted itself with those that wished to take away the civil rights of others.

Edited May 21, 2016 by california boy