How much influence did the LDS Church have on California Prop 8?

[rodheadlee]

Y'all got the thread closed while I was at work. I said "I live in California, I was born in California so I have a lot of experience with Californians. No one I knew at the time was Mormon, I was in between wards and inactive and getting ready to sail to the Marquesas Islands. Everyone I knew  voted Yes on Prop 8. So your vivd imagination is telling you something that is not true and was never true. The Church had a minor affect on Prop 8. This is not the Wasatch Front the Church has about zero influence here.To tell yourself otherwise is pure vanity."

 

Mtomm said "So let's see, you weren't going to church, were between wards and busy getting ready to leave and yet you feel you can  say that the Church only had a minor influence. Okay.  Well, I live in Idaho and I'm currently active and was active in church at the time of Prop 8. Our bishop came into our Relief Society meeting to ask us to help man phone banks at a local university to call California voters.   So my vivid real life experience tells me that the Church tried very, very hard to to influence the vote on Prop 8.  To pretend otherwise is pure vanity"

This precisely my point.Mtomm. Mormons were influenced by their religion, non Mormons were not influenced by the LDS religion. The population on the Mormon Front, Wasatch Front or whatever you want to call it runs around 60%, probably greater in Idaho. Non Mormons in California could give a tinkers damn about what our Church says and the California LDS population is 1  percent according to wikipedia, 32% Protestant, and 28% Roman Catholic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#Religion , as well as 27% atheist.

As you can see we are VASTLY out numbered by other religions who think we worship a different God, a different Jesus Christ, who mostly think we are going to Hell. It is vain to think we have influence over these people. They voted their own conscience which happens to align with ours.

 

[carbon dioxide]

The only criticism that I have with the Church and prop 8 is I really believed it was not needed and simply put a target on the back of the Church.  Every time that gay marriage had been left to the voters, it was voted down.  At one point the score was 31-0 on states that shot down gay marriage.  California had an earlier ballot measure on gay marriage and the voters went against it.  A court reversed that decision which lead to Prop 8.  The Church should have just followed the trend at that time. There was no reason to believe that California would not have passed prop 8.  More money was spent trying to defeat prop 8 than pass it and it still passed.  I still believe that if the measure was on the ballot today, the voters may still not accept gay marriage in California.  Yes polls claim otherwise but its one thing to answer a poll and another to cast a vote in secret.  People don't always do the things they say in public when they are in a voting booth when they have to be honest with themselves. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Y'all got the thread closed while I was at work. I said "I live in California, I was born in California so I have a lot of experience with Californians. No one I knew at the time was Mormon, I was in between wards and inactive and getting ready to sail to the Marquesas Islands. Everyone I knew  voted Yes on Prop 8. So your vivd imagination is telling you something that is not true and was never true. The Church had a minor affect on Prop 8. This is not the Wasatch Front the Church has about zero influence here.To tell yourself otherwise is pure vanity."

 

Mtomm said "So let's see, you weren't going to church, were between wards and busy getting ready to leave and yet you feel you can  say that the Church only had a minor influence. Okay.  Well, I live in Idaho and I'm currently active and was active in church at the time of Prop 8. Our bishop came into our Relief Society meeting to ask us to help man phone banks at a local university to call California voters.   So my vivid real life experience tells me that the Church tried very, very hard to to influence the vote on Prop 8.  To pretend otherwise is pure vanity"

This precisely my point.Mtomm. Mormons were influenced by their religion, non Mormons were not influenced by the LDS religion. The population on the Mormon Front, Wasatch Front or whatever you want to call it runs around 60%, probably greater in Idaho. Non Mormons in California could give a tinkers damn about what our Church says and the California LDS population is 1  percent according to wikipedia, 32% Protestant, and 28% Roman Catholic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#Religion , as well as 27% atheist.

As you can see we are VASTLY out numbered by other religions who think we worship a different God, a different Jesus Christ, who mostly think we are going to Hell. It is vain to think we have influence over these people. They voted their own conscience which happens to align with ours.

 

Well, it didn't have enough influence, apparently. It did serve to teach my granddaughters how rude people can be and what the middle finger

salute is all about. 

[california boy]

Quite honestly, it is a ridiculous question to ask.  The involvement of the Mormon church with Prop 8 is well documented.  It is not like this is something that can be shoved back under a rock.  Millions of California saw and watched what the Mormons did.  This is one part of Mormon history that can not be hidden, though some seem intent in doing so.

[Maedros]

Prop 8 is an excellent modern example of how 'the voice of the people' chose right over wrong - it is truly a testament of the power of the majority and especially where that majority makes a choice in support of a righteous goal to prevent a modern-day Sodom and Gomorrah in that State. Thank the living God for the latter-day saints and their contribution to passing that law - thank the Lord for the Christians who voted in agreement (despite doctrinal differences) to carry the banner of Christ forward and win that battle. The LGBT community has also won some significant battles since then but in the end: Christ (who leads against the foe) will be victorious and to quote his prophet: "right is mightier than wrong" and "when God speaks and a man obeys, that man will always be right".  I am so proud of Prop 8, I'm so proud of the saints in that State, I'm so proud to be a Mormon: "Yes siree; dyed in the wool; true blue, through and through."

[canard78]

5 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Y'all got the thread closed while I was at work. I said "I live in California, I was born in California so I have a lot of experience with Californians. No one I knew at the time was Mormon, I was in between wards and inactive and getting ready to sail to the Marquesas Islands. Everyone I knew  voted Yes on Prop 8. So your vivd imagination is telling you something that is not true and was never true. The Church had a minor affect on Prop 8. This is not the Wasatch Front the Church has about zero influence here.To tell yourself otherwise is pure vanity."

 

Mtomm said "So let's see, you weren't going to church, were between wards and busy getting ready to leave and yet you feel you can  say that the Church only had a minor influence. Okay.  Well, I live in Idaho and I'm currently active and was active in church at the time of Prop 8. Our bishop came into our Relief Society meeting to ask us to help man phone banks at a local university to call California voters.   So my vivid real life experience tells me that the Church tried very, very hard to to influence the vote on Prop 8.  To pretend otherwise is pure vanity"

This precisely my point.Mtomm. Mormons were influenced by their religion, non Mormons were not influenced by the LDS religion. The population on the Mormon Front, Wasatch Front or whatever you want to call it runs around 60%, probably greater in Idaho. Non Mormons in California could give a tinkers damn about what our Church says and the California LDS population is 1  percent according to wikipedia, 32% Protestant, and 28% Roman Catholic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#Religion , as well as 27% atheist.

As you can see we are VASTLY out numbered by other religions who think we worship a different God, a different Jesus Christ, who mostly think we are going to Hell. It is vain to think we have influence over these people. They voted their own conscience which happens to align with ours.

 

Why did it get closed anyway?

Maybe us "critics" were getting too close to winning an argument for once so it got shut down before we could

 

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

Quite honestly, it is a ridiculous question to ask.  The involvement of the Mormon church with Prop 8 is well documented.  It is not like this is something that can be shoved back under a rock.  Millions of California saw and watched what the Mormons did.  This is one part of Mormon history that can not be hidden, though some seem intent in doing so.

I'm not trying to shove it back under the rug but if the Church had that much influence in CA the membership would be larger.

Edited May 20, 2016 by rodheadlee

[rodheadlee]

3 hours ago, canard78 said:

Why did it get closed anyway?

Maybe us "critics" were getting too close to winning an argument for once so it got shut down before we could

 

I'll bet this thread gets shut down before I get home from school tonight. What were you winning? What point were you really trying to make?

Edited May 20, 2016 by rodheadlee

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 hours ago, canard78 said:

Why did it get closed anyway?

Maybe us "critics" were getting too close to winning an argument for once so it got shut down before we could

 

Robert Smith committed a Godwin's Law violation...

[Gray]

It seems clear to me that the church's involvement in getting Prop 8 passed was substantial. 

[rockpond]

10 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Y'all got the thread closed while I was at work. I said "I live in California, I was born in California so I have a lot of experience with Californians. No one I knew at the time was Mormon, I was in between wards and inactive and getting ready to sail to the Marquesas Islands. Everyone I knew  voted Yes on Prop 8. So your vivd imagination is telling you something that is not true and was never true. The Church had a minor affect on Prop 8. This is not the Wasatch Front the Church has about zero influence here.To tell yourself otherwise is pure vanity."

 

Mtomm said "So let's see, you weren't going to church, were between wards and busy getting ready to leave and yet you feel you can  say that the Church only had a minor influence. Okay.  Well, I live in Idaho and I'm currently active and was active in church at the time of Prop 8. Our bishop came into our Relief Society meeting to ask us to help man phone banks at a local university to call California voters.   So my vivid real life experience tells me that the Church tried very, very hard to to influence the vote on Prop 8.  To pretend otherwise is pure vanity"

This precisely my point.Mtomm. Mormons were influenced by their religion, non Mormons were not influenced by the LDS religion. The population on the Mormon Front, Wasatch Front or whatever you want to call it runs around 60%, probably greater in Idaho. Non Mormons in California could give a tinkers damn about what our Church says and the California LDS population is 1  percent according to wikipedia, 32% Protestant, and 28% Roman Catholic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#Religion , as well as 27% atheist.

As you can see we are VASTLY out numbered by other religions who think we worship a different God, a different Jesus Christ, who mostly think we are going to Hell. It is vain to think we have influence over these people. They voted their own conscience which happens to align with ours.

 

I don't think that non-Mormons were influenced by the LDS religions, they were influenced by the campaigning that happened to be done by LDS members and leaders.

Final vote was 52%-48%.  Fairly close.  If the Lord thought that work by church members and leaders couldn't sway the vote the way He wanted it to go, why would He have Church leaders...

• Encourage members to donate large sums of money to the cause
• Organize wards and stakes into door-to-door and street corner campaigning
• Use church resources to produce videos, ads, and campaign materials
• Staff phone banks in Utah and Idaho to make calls into California
• Fly church leaders out to California to promote Yes on 8

That's a lot of effort to put in if we weren't going to have any impact on the outcome, don't you think?

[jkwilliams]

45 minutes ago, Gray said:

It seems clear to me that the church's involvement in getting Prop 8 passed was substantial. 

Yes, they definitely had a huge impact on fundraising and organization, well beyond their relatively minuscule presence in California.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Robert Smith committed a Godwin's Law violation...

So why not just thread ban Robert?

I had some rebuttals I didn't get a chance to make.

[Daimao]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

• Staff phone banks in Utah and Idaho to make calls into California

Can anyone clarify something for me? I was under the impression from something that I read years ago that this consisted of college students from California at BYU and BYU-I making the calls, but I don't remember the source. This point, and the claim of busing people into California to canvas, has long had me curious (I don't think I've ever seen anything convincing to either back up or refute the second claim, either).

[Storm Rider]

It is interesting that such an extremely small part of the population, with a moral stand that most Californians reject completely, can be the sole reason or at least blamed to be the sole reason that the majority of California's voters supported Prop 8.  They did not control the media or social networks, which is most often the way propaganda works.  Instead they used Mormon mind control techniques that forced voters to follow them.  

We need to start using these techniques in missionary efforts around the world.  If the consistent accusations are true the Mormon Church should be the largest religious organization in less than five years.  

Yup, it had to the Mormons who achieved this stupendous result - it certainly could not be independent voters actually thinking on their own and making a choice contrary to the very liberal political leadership.  Could not happen!  It had to the Mormons special powers and brainwashing.  It was not the black churches and it certainly was not the Catholics.  

For some reason I think of some people will believe anything if it is repeated enough times and no one stops to actually consider what is said.  

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Robert Smith committed a Godwin's Law violation...

You mean my reductio ad Hitlerum?  I plead guilty.  Intemperate of me.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, rockpond said:

If the Lord thought that work by church members and leaders couldn't sway the vote the way He wanted it to go, why would He have Church leaders...

That's a lot of effort to put in if we weren't going to have any impact on the outcome, don't you think?

Since Prop. 8 was overturned though, that question still stands.  If God knew that California (and eventually the entire country) would ultimately legalize SSM, why go thru all the effort of Prop. 8?  

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Daimao said:

Can anyone clarify something for me? I was under the impression from something that I read years ago that this consisted of college students from California at BYU and BYU-I making the calls, but I don't remember the source. This point, and the claim of busing people into California to canvas, has long had me curious (I don't think I've ever seen anything convincing to either back up or refute the second claim, either).

I was there, and I did not see any out-of-state carpetbaggers.  I do know that Roman Catholic priests and many Protestant pastors were urging yes on Prop 8 from the pulpit (something we did not see in LDS wards).

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bluebell said:

Since Prop. 8 was overturned though, that question still stands.  If God knew that California (and eventually the entire country) would ultimately legalize SSM, why go thru all the effort of Prop. 8?  

The same question could be asked about the building of the temple in Independence. Why go through all that if it wasn't meant to be? I suspect we could come up with a number of possible reasons.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

The same question could be asked about the building of the temple in Independence. Why go through all that if it wasn't meant to be? I suspect we could come up with a number of possible reasons.

Exactly.  

The idea that God would only get someone involved with something, or would only ask people to put lots of time, effort, and money into something, if it was going to be a success isn't supported by scripture or recent history.

A lot of times God seems to care much more about the journey than the destination.  

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bluebell said:

Exactly.  

The idea that God would only get someone involved with something, or would only ask people to put lots of time, effort, and money into something, if it was going to be a success isn't supported by scripture or recent history.

A lot of times God seems to care much more about the journey than the destination.  

As much as I disagree with the church's position on this issue, I completely respect their standing on principle, despite the cost. 

[rockpond]

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Since Prop. 8 was overturned though, that question still stands.  If God knew that California (and eventually the entire country) would ultimately legalize SSM, why go thru all the effort of Prop. 8?  

Perhaps, God wasn't involved.

Or, maybe God wanted SSM to be legalized and saw the passing of Prop 8 as the fastest route there.

Or, as others have suggested, maybe it was all about the journey and not the outcome.  I know for me, the journey from Prop 22 through Prop 8 and Hollingsworth v Perry has been an interesting and enlightening one.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Perhaps, God wasn't involved.

Or, maybe God wanted SSM to be legalized and saw the passing of Prop 8 as the fastest route there.

Or, as others have suggested, maybe it was all about the journey and not the outcome.  I know for me, the journey from Prop 22 through Prop 8 and Hollingsworth v Perry has been an interesting and enlightening one.

Do you really believe that God would tell the prophet and apostles that SSM is a sin, and tell them to go through everything prop. 8 involved, because SSM isn't a sin and He really wanted it to be legal?

 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bluebell said:

Do you really believe that God would tell the prophet and apostles that SSM is a sin, and tell them to go through everything prop. 8 involved, because SSM isn't a sin and He really wanted it to be legal?

Legalizing something has no bearing on whether it's a sin or not. 

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Legalizing something has no bearing on whether it's a sin or not. 

So you're saying that God could want a sin to become legalized?