Mystery Meat Posted June 7, 2016 Posted June 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, rockpond said: You stand behind the idea that anything said by one of the Lord's annointed servants is the same as the Lord saying it himself? You don't see any problems with that? Not only do I stand behind it, but as far as we are concerned, obedience to the prophet is obedience to God. That leaves room for a lot of nuance in my mind, but the Lord clearly put the prophet's in charge with no equivocation.
rockpond Posted June 7, 2016 Posted June 7, 2016 10 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: Not only do I stand behind it, but as far as we are concerned, obedience to the prophet is obedience to God. That leaves room for a lot of nuance in my mind, but the Lord clearly put the prophet's in charge with no equivocation. Obedience is an entirely different matter than whether every word the Lord's servants speak is the same as His own. And the prophet is not in charge, the Lord is (that goes back to the use of the word: "servant").
Mystery Meat Posted June 7, 2016 Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) 11 minutes ago, rockpond said: Obedience is an entirely different matter than whether every word the Lord's servants speak is the same as His own. And the prophet is not in charge, the Lord is (that goes back to the use of the word: "servant"). Exactly. Please note, however, that the Lord didn't stutter, nor did he equivocate. He didn't list a bunch of exceptions to the statement. So any exception you have is one that you have concocted. Edited June 7, 2016 by Mystery Meat
bluebell Posted June 7, 2016 Posted June 7, 2016 44 minutes ago, rockpond said: Yes, you are reading my tone wrong. I'm sorry - it was not meant to sound sarcastic or condescending. I think that is your belief system, and that's good. I may not understand it, but you don't understand my belief system either. Thanks for clarifying.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 19 hours ago, Mystery Meat said: So if the priesthood ban was contrary to God's will, has proved to be a stumbling block for many, and God has the power to communicate with His servants, why didn't He? Communicating, heck even listening, is not dependent on someone's agency. Are you telling me, that God would not communicate to Brigham Young (even by visitation) that the ban was wrong out of respect for Brigham's agency? Wouldn't a humble servant of Christ, as you agree Brigham was, welcome counsel from on high no matter the topic? How then, would God's allowance of the ban not be anything less than condoning, if not out right commandment? Something in your thought process doesn't add up. Spencer W Kimball said the following on revelation: Quote Revelations will probably never come unless they are desired. I think few people receive revelations while lounging on the couch or while playing cards or while relaxing. I believe most revelations would come when a man is on his tip toes, reaching as high as he can for something which he knows he needs, and then there bursts upon him the answer to his problems.10 If we aren't reaching for an answer, God apparantly is content to let us wander. Any wonder why it took a crisis in Brazil before the revelation was received? 2
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) 30 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Spencer W Kimball said the following on revelation: If we aren't reaching for an answer, God apparantly is content to let us wander. Any wonder why it took a crisis in Brazil before the revelation was received? Further for those that think the line of revelation is so clear (upto and including visits / conversations with Christ Himself), I'm confused why the Priesthood revelation was such a life changing experience for those that were there: President (then Elder) Hinkcley recalled: Quote There was not the sound “as of a rushing mighty wind,” there were not “cloven tongues like as of fire” as there had been on the Day of Pentacost. . . . But the voice of the Spirit whispered with certainty into our minds and our very souls. . . . Not one of us who was present on that occasion was ever quite the same after that. The voice of the Spirit, confirmed their decision with certainty - sounds like the revelation that I have received on occasion amplified several times. Also of importance to note when discussing how clear revelation is, it was not until a couple of years ago, that the church disavowed the racist doctrine surrounding the ban. Many people cite Elder McConkie stating after the revelation "Forget everything I have said...", but forget that he continued to publish the racist folklore in his book Mormon Doctrine. Again if revelation is such a crystal clear process, why wasn't this corrected sooner? It seems clear to me that all of us, Apostles and Prophets included, see through a glass darkly. We learn line upon line. God apparently does not force us to Elder Uchtdorf recently said "Now, brethren, compared to the perfection of God, we mortals are scarcely more than awkward, faltering toddlers. But our loving Heavenly Father wants us to become more like Him, and, dear brethren, that should be our eternal goal too. God understands that we get there not in an instant but by taking one step at a time." I've had four little toddlers now and trying to teach them and get them to understand takes a long time. Again we get there one step at a time. Edited June 8, 2016 by SeekingUnderstanding 2
stemelbow Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 2 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Further for those that think the line of revelation is so clear (upto and including visits / conversations with Christ Himself), I'm confused why the Priesthood revelation was such a life changing experience for those that were there: President (then Elder) Hinkcley recalled: The voice of the Spirit, confirmed their decision with certainty - sounds like the revelation that I have received on occasion amplified several times. Also of importance to note when discussing how clear revelation is, it was not until a couple of years ago, that the church disavowed the racist doctrine surrounding the ban. Many people site Elder McConkie stating after the revelation "Forget everything I have said...", but forget that he continued to publish in his book Mormon Doctrine, the racist folklore. Again if revelation is such a crystal clear process, why wasn't this corrected sooner? It seems clear to me that all of us, Apostles and Prophets included, see through a glass darkly. We learn line upon line. God apparently does not force us to Elder Uchtdorf recently said "Now, brethren, compared to the perfection of God, we mortals are scarcely more than awkward, faltering toddlers. But our loving Heavenly Father wants us to become more like Him, and, dear brethren, that should be our eternal goal too. God understands that we get there not in an instant but by taking one step at a time." I've had four little toddlers now and trying to teach them and get them to understand takes a long time. Again we get there one step at a time. Excellent contributions. I absolutely detest the notion that God commands us to do bad things because it will be too hard for Him to command us to do the right thing. So much easier to realize that methods that involve revelation are not foolproof. We'll always see error in the process, and it shouldn't hurt at all for us to wonder if error has crept in. 4
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) 16 hours ago, Mystery Meat said: Not only do I stand behind it, but as far as we are concerned, obedience to the prophet is obedience to God. That leaves room for a lot of nuance in my mind, but the Lord clearly put the prophet's in charge with no equivocation. Who are the Lord's servants? Aren't you one of the Lord's servants? Do you feel you always speak directly for God? Verse 14 of Section 1 lists Apostles and Prophets, and servants as two separate groups... Edited June 8, 2016 by SeekingUnderstanding 1
Gray Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 17 hours ago, Mystery Meat said: Exactly. Please note, however, that the Lord didn't stutter, nor did he equivocate. He didn't list a bunch of exceptions to the statement. So any exception you have is one that you have concocted. I don't know of any scripture that says that everything that a prophet says is the word of the Lord. 1
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