How much influence did the LDS Church have on California Prop 8?

[rockpond]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Do you really believe that God would tell the prophet and apostles that SSM is a sin, and tell them to go through everything prop. 8 involved, because SSM isn't a sin and He really wanted it to be legal?

 

First, as jkwilliams and Elder Oaks have said:  whether or not something is legal has no bearing on its morality/sinfulness.

Second, I don't believe that God has told the prophet and apostles that SSM is a sin.

Third, I don't believe God told them to go get Prop 8 passed (even though the final outcome was good).

Fourth, I believe God is a libertarian and so, yeah, He wants SSM to be legal.

 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bluebell said:

So you're saying that God could want a sin to become legalized?

I'm not going to speculate on why God does anything, but I don't see why he can't sometimes do things we don't understand in the short term to further his long-term plans.

[juliann]

11 hours ago, california boy said:

Quite honestly, it is a ridiculous question to ask.  The involvement of the Mormon church with Prop 8 is well documented.  It is not like this is something that can be shoved back under a rock.  Millions of California saw and watched what the Mormons did.  This is one part of Mormon history that can not be hidden, though some seem intent in doing so.

But it does seem to be hidden that "the Mormons" were not the deciding factor. Had the churches who had a key role not been black there would have been more openness, I think. No one is saying Mormons didn't play a big role but it is absurd to blame the whole fiasco on one church when so many were involved. Even though you think the Mormons changed everyone else's minds, it is absurd to pretend our actual vote meant much. I continue to find it odd that in this instance the Mormons were masterminds and brainwash experts while in every other instance they are insignificant if not crazed religious fanatics.

It passed for one reason only, the opposition was so appallingly bad and poorly organized. They apparently thought it was a shoe in and so did everyone else until the next morning. The media was apparently so surprised they wouldn't call it before I went to bed. It seemed to me at the time that was odd because the remaining numbers didn't support a win but I thought they knew something no one else did....so I was stunned to discover it passed. I saw few articles that acknowledged how bad the opposition was but there were enough to not give anyone an excuse for not noticing. That is what is hidden. 

Do I think it was a good idea for the church to get so involved? No. But let's place blame where it deserves to be placed. It isn't a matter of who won it, it is who lost it. 

[jkwilliams]

22 minutes ago, juliann said:

But it does seem to be hidden that "the Mormons" were not the deciding factor. Had the churches who had a key role not been black there would have been more openness, I think. No one is saying Mormons didn't play a big role but it is absurd to blame the whole fiasco on one church when so many were involved. Even though you think the Mormons changed everyone else's minds, it is absurd to pretend our actual vote meant much. I continue to find it odd that in this instance the Mormons were masterminds and brainwash experts while in every other instance they are insignificant if not crazed religious fanatics.

It passed for one reason only, the opposition was so appallingly bad and poorly organized. They apparently thought it was a shoe in and so did everyone else until the next morning. The media was apparently so surprised they wouldn't call it before I went to bed. It seemed to me at the time that was odd because the remaining numbers didn't support a win but I thought they knew something no one else did....so I was stunned to discover it passed. I saw few articles that acknowledged how bad the opposition was but there were enough to not give anyone an excuse for not noticing. That is what is hidden. 

Do I think it was a good idea for the church to get so involved? No. But let's place blame where it deserves to be placed. It isn't a matter of who won it, it is who lost it. 

I don't think anyone said the church was the deciding factor. The issue for me and others was that several people said the church's role in the Yes on 8 campaign was "minuscule." It wasn't.

[bluebell]

52 minutes ago, rockpond said:

First, as jkwilliams and Elder Oaks have said:  whether or not something is legal has no bearing on its morality/sinfulness.

Second, I don't believe that God has told the prophet and apostles that SSM is a sin.

Third, I don't believe God told them to go get Prop 8 passed (even though the final outcome was good).

Fourth, I believe God is a libertarian and so, yeah, He wants SSM to be legal.

 

Do you believe that the apostles are lying when they say that God told them to carry out prop 8, or that they were deceived?

That might sound antagonistic but I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm sincerely wondering your thoughts on that. 

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So why not just thread ban Robert?

I had some rebuttals I didn't get a chance to make.

 

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You mean my reductio ad Hitlerum?  I plead guilty.  Intemperate of me.

I should have specified that it was just a guess on my part. I am definitely not a mod and certainly didn't report the post...

[SeekingUnderstanding]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Do you believe that the apostles are lying when they say that God told them to carry out prop 8, or that they were deceived?

That might sound antagonistic but I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm sincerely wondering your thoughts on that. 

 

I hate to speak for Rockpond, but likely the word you are looking for is mistaken, not lying. Happens to the best of us. 

[bluebell]

Just now, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I hate to speak for Rockpond, but likely the word you are looking for is mistaken, not lying. Happens to the best of us. 

That's not actually the word i was looking for.

Lying happens to the best of us too.  And being deceived happens to the best of us as well.  We're all human.  However, I think it would be difficult for 15 men to be so specifically mistaken about the same things, which is why I didn't ask about that angle.  

But you are right in that i should have allowed for that option.  Maybe rockpond does believe that they all misunderstood what God actually told them.

 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's not actually the word i was looking for.

Lying happens to the best of us too.  And being deceived happens to the best of us as well.  We're all human.  However, I think it would be difficult for 15 men to be so specifically mistaken about the same things, which is why I didn't ask about that angle.  

But you are right in that i should have allowed for that option.  Maybe rockpond does believe that they all misunderstood what God actually told them.

I'm not sure humans are any more or less prone to mistakes when they are in a group.

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm not sure humans are any more or less prone to mistakes when they are in a group.

I agree.  That's not what i mean though.

If my kid comes to me and asks me what I want him to do and I tell him to wash the dishes but he puts them away instead-that's a believable mistake.  If each one of my kids comes separately to me and asks me what I want them to do and I tell each one of my kids individually to wash the dishes and each one of them does the wrong thing-that's hard to believe.

 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bluebell said:

I agree.  That's not what i mean though.

If my kid comes to me and asks me what I want him to do and I tell him to wash the dishes but he puts them away instead-that's a believable mistake.  If each one of my kids comes separately to me and asks me what I want them to do and I tell each one of my kids individually to wash the dishes and each one of them does the wrong thing-that's hard to believe.

I guess I never expected the brethren to get such direct instruction. President Hinckley said he received inspiration the same way the rest of us do: through thoughts, feelings, and impressions. I know I've made mistakes based on such things.

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I guess I never expected the brethren to get such direct instruction. President Hinckley said he received inspiration the same way the rest of us do: through thoughts, feelings, and impressions. I know I've made mistakes based on such things.

The point is still relevant.

Each of the apostles and prophets prays for individual inspiration.  It's pretty easy for one person to be mistaken.  It's harder for multiple people to individually make the exact same mistake.   That's why God uses the law of witnesses.    

It's one thing for you to be mistaken in the inspiration you get.  But if your entire family makes the exact same mistake about inspiration you all got individually-that's a hard sell.   It's easier to understand how people can all be deceived about the same thing than it is to believe that a group of people can all individually misunderstand communication in the exact same way.

It's probably not impossible, but it's still really hard to believe.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The point is still relevant.

Each of the apostles and prophets prays for individual inspiration.  It's pretty easy for one person to be mistaken.  It's harder for multiple people to individually make the exact same mistake.   That's why God uses the law of witnesses.    

It's one thing for you to be mistaken in the inspiration you get.  But if your entire family makes the exact same mistake about inspiration you all got individually-that's a hard sell.   It's easier to understand how people can all be deceived about the same thing than it is to believe that a group of people can all individually misunderstand communication in the exact same way.

It's probably not impossible, but it's still really hard to believe.

It's kind of academic for me, since I don't believe they were inspired to get involved with Prop 8. As I said, if they really were inspired it's entirely possible the church had something to learn from the failure of the campaign. 

[Gray]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The point is still relevant.

Each of the apostles and prophets prays for individual inspiration.  It's pretty easy for one person to be mistaken.  It's harder for multiple people to individually make the exact same mistake.   That's why God uses the law of witnesses.    

It's one thing for you to be mistaken in the inspiration you get.  But if your entire family makes the exact same mistake about inspiration you all got individually-that's a hard sell.   It's easier to understand how people can all be deceived about the same thing than it is to believe that a group of people can all individually misunderstand communication in the exact same way.

It's probably not impossible, but it's still really hard to believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

 

Quote

Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences.

Groupthink requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates its own abilities in decision-making and significantly underrates the abilities of its opponents (the "outgroup"). Furthermore, groupthink can produce dehumanizing actions against the "outgroup".

 

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Do you believe that the apostles are lying when they say that God told them to carry out prop 8, or that they were deceived?

That might sound antagonistic but I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm sincerely wondering your thoughts on that. 

 

Do you have a reference for the apostles saying that God told them to carry out Prop 8?  I don't recall hearing that.

Could they have been deceived?  Certainly.  That's part and parcel to prophetic fallibility.

[rockpond]

56 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's not actually the word i was looking for. Lying happens to the best of us too.  And being deceived happens to the best of us as well.  We're all human.  However, I think it would be difficult for 15 men to be so specifically mistaken about the same things, which is why I didn't ask about that angle.  

But you are right in that i should have allowed for that option.  Maybe rockpond does believe that they all misunderstood what God actually told them.

 

Misunderstood is definitely a possibility.  I've said it before and I imagine I'll have to say it again (because people seem to equate my belief in leadership fallibility with "lying") -- I do NOT believe that these 15 men have it in them to lie (i.e. intentionally deceive).

[Jeanne]

Aside from assumed prophecy, I believe there was a lot of influence from interfaith groups and cooperation they wanted with each other.  Catholics and a lot of evangelical religions were in force and cooperation from the Mormon Church and vice versa was a boon to getting things done. 

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Gray said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

 

 

Yes, I'm aware of group think. 

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Do you have a reference for the apostles saying that God told them to carry out Prop 8?  I don't recall hearing that.

Could they have been deceived?  Certainly.  That's part and parcel to prophetic fallibility.

It's been months since I read it so probably won't be able to find it. 

It was in connection with why the church didn't mount opposition in other states against SSM like they did in California. 

The apostle said it was because they were  specifically told to do so in California and not to do so in the other states. 

I'll see if I can find the reference. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by bluebell

[rockpond]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's been months since I read it so probably won't be able to find it. 

It was in connection with why the church didn't mount opposition in other states against SSM like they did in California. 

The apostle said it was because they were  specifically told to do so in California and not to do so in the other states. 

I'll see if I can find the reference. 

Okay.

BTW, they did mount opposition in other states but probably not to the degree that they did in CA.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

That's not actually the word i was looking for.

Lying happens to the best of us too.  And being deceived happens to the best of us as well.  We're all human.  However, I think it would be difficult for 15 men to be so specifically mistaken about the same things, which is why I didn't ask about that angle.  

But you are right in that i should have allowed for that option.  Maybe rockpond does believe that they all misunderstood what God actually told them.

 

Do you think a stake high council has ever made a wrong decision when they felt led by the spirit? What about a ward council? If they believe a decision was inspired, can they be mistaken or must they be lying?

Edited May 21, 2016 by SeekingUnderstanding

[carbon dioxide]

14 hours ago, Gray said:

It seems clear to me that the church's involvement in getting Prop 8 passed was substantial. 

Not clear to me.  The Church did not need to get involved in dozens of other states that put down SSM on a ballot.  The Church did play a public role but I don't see any reason to believe that Prop 8 would not have passed if the Church did nothing.  If money buys election results, Prop 8 should have failed since more money was spent to defeat Prop 8 than for those who supported it.  I don't think it is really complicated.  Most of the people in California did not support gay marriage when Prop 8 was on the ballot.  

Edited May 21, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[canard78]

15 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I'll bet this thread gets shut down before I get home from school tonight. What were you winning? What point were you really trying to make?

We were discussing the fact that the POTF was reactive. Scott and Dan were claiming that it was ahead of its time, which made it prophetic. I, and others, had pointed out that it was very much of its time. 

My point? That Mormon prophets don't have a special ability to see the future that is in any way more accurate than any other research based "futures" predictions. That they are not seers. 

I think prop 8 is another good example of LDS leaders being reactive to their current circumstances. Their opposition achieved nothing other than a short term, phyrric victory. It placed them on the losing side in the long term. Despite the tide being well and truly against them, even now, they continue to fight and expect their members to go down fighting with them. 

[sunstoned]

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

The point is still relevant.

Each of the apostles and prophets prays for individual inspiration.  It's pretty easy for one person to be mistaken.  It's harder for multiple people to individually make the exact same mistake.   That's why God uses the law of witnesses.    

It's one thing for you to be mistaken in the inspiration you get.  But if your entire family makes the exact same mistake about inspiration you all got individually-that's a hard sell.   It's easier to understand how people can all be deceived about the same thing than it is to believe that a group of people can all individually misunderstand communication in the exact same way.

It's probably not impossible, but it's still really hard to believe.

Is it any easier to believe generations of apostles and prophets got the priesthood ban wrong?  If you read the essay, it seems like that was apparently the case.

[california boy]

10 hours ago, juliann said:

But it does seem to be hidden that "the Mormons" were not the deciding factor. Had the churches who had a key role not been black there would have been more openness, I think. No one is saying Mormons didn't play a big role but it is absurd to blame the whole fiasco on one church when so many were involved. Even though you think the Mormons changed everyone else's minds, it is absurd to pretend our actual vote meant much. I continue to find it odd that in this instance the Mormons were masterminds and brainwash experts while in every other instance they are insignificant if not crazed religious fanatics.

It passed for one reason only, the opposition was so appallingly bad and poorly organized. They apparently thought it was a shoe in and so did everyone else until the next morning. The media was apparently so surprised they wouldn't call it before I went to bed. It seemed to me at the time that was odd because the remaining numbers didn't support a win but I thought they knew something no one else did....so I was stunned to discover it passed. I saw few articles that acknowledged how bad the opposition was but there were enough to not give anyone an excuse for not noticing. That is what is hidden. 

Do I think it was a good idea for the church to get so involved? No. But let's place blame where it deserves to be placed. It isn't a matter of who won it, it is who lost it. 

Well actually there are Mormons who are claiming that the church played a very small role in passing prop 8. Robertsmith claimed that very thing in the now closed thread. That kind of claim is complete BS

i don't blame the whole disaster of passing prop 8 on the church. Many others were also involved. The no on prop 8 did a poor job of letting the prop 8 campaign get away with a campaign of lies and fear  the people of California who voted to take away the civil rights of Americans all have to share that wrong

For me, this is not about winning or loosing prop 8  this is about the church attacking the civil rights of gay Americans  I would be just as upset at the church if prop 8 had lost  There is NO excuse for working to taking away anyone's civil rights, especially by a church that had so much persecution and attacks on there civil rights  The persecuted become the persecuters  That is what is shameful and sadly, the church is still targeting gay families  it grieves me that a church I loved has decided to pursue this path