How much influence did the LDS Church have on California Prop 8?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, ALarson said:

I have a close family member who is gay and lives in New York (she lived there during the prop 8 campaign as well).  She has told me that the prop 8 subject never comes up that the Mormon church doesn't come up along with it.  She is not a Mormon, but has told me that every gay person she knows fully attributes the passing of prop 8 to the efforts of the Mormon church.  I'm only reporting here what she has told me, but I have no reason to doubt her as she is quite a big part of that community back there and in social media. 

Would Prop 8 have passed without the church's involvement? Who knows? Was the church's involvement significant in terms of organization and money? Unquestionably. I don't believe the Catholic church or the black community were anywhere near as well-organized as the church was, and it's pretty clear that church members contributed the largest single share of money to the campaign. It's that level of involvement that has earned the church the ire of a lot of people. Scapegoat? Maybe, but it's disingenuous to say the church's involvement was minuscule and unimportant.

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I have a close family member who is gay and lives in New York (she lived there during the prop 8 campaign as well).  She has told me that the prop 8 subject never comes up that the Mormon church doesn't come up along with it.  She is not a Mormon, but has told me that every gay person she knows fully attributes the passing of prop 8 to the efforts of the Mormon church (and then other religions and groups who got involved as secondary influences).  I'm only reporting here what she has told me, but I have no reason to doubt her as she is quite a big part of that community back there and on social media. 

.

That really doesn't surprise me at all.  It doesn't mean that perception equals reality, but for sure the mormon church is the face of Prop. 8 because it was the most vocal and most easily recognized target for the backlash.

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That really doesn't surprise me at all.  It doesn't mean that perception equals reality, but for sure the mormon church is the face of Prop. 8 because it was the most vocal and most easily recognized target for the backlash.

Agreed. It was the most vocal, most organized, and most financially involved. Another factor to consider is that, because the church is small and not a major player in politics or society outside of Utah, it's still socially acceptable to go after Mormons in ways that aren't acceptable for other groups. 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Given this-

"By election day, volunteers on both sides spent thousands of hours getting their messages across to the state's 17.3 million registered voters.[47][48] The campaigns for and against Proposition 8 raised $39.0 million ($11.3 million or 29.1% from outside California) and $44.1 million ($13.2 million or 30.0% from outside California), respectively,[49] from over 64,000 people in all 50 states and more than 20 foreign countries, setting a new record nationally for a social policy initiative and more than for every other race in the country in spending except the presidential contest.[50]Contributions were much greater than those of previous same-sex marriage initiatives. Between 2004 and 2006, 22 such measures were on ballots around the country, and donations to all of them combined totaled $31.4 million, according to the nonpartisan National Institute on Money in State Politics.[51] A ProtectMarriage.com spokeswoman estimated that 36 companies which had previously contributed to Equality California were targeted to receive a letter requesting similar donations to ProtectMarriage.com."

I'm not sure how we can even know that the church was unique in punching above its weight and so deserves the accusation when others don't (if the accusation is even a bad thing, which i can't really see that it is but maybe it's meant as one, i really can't tell).  I don't think it's possible to punch above one's weight in a state where you live.  And if we are counting those who didn't live in California, the opposition to prop. 8 seems to have punched above it's weight more than the mormons did.

 

I don't know about being unique. But given the small size of the church, its contributions in time and money compared to everyone else was significant, for such a relatively small organization. Compare LDS efforts with Catholic efforts. There was probably more money and time spent by Mormons on Prop 8 than Catholics, and the Catholic Church is vastly larger than the LDS Church. That's what I really mean by "punch above its weight"

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Gray said:

I don't know about being unique. But given the small size of the church, its contributions in time and money compared to everyone else was significant, for such a relatively small organization. Compare LDS efforts with Catholic efforts. There was probably more money and time spent by Mormons on Prop 8 than Catholics, and the Catholic Church is vastly larger than the LDS Church. That's what I really mean by "punch above its weight"

That's my conclusion, as well. I think I'm going to bow out of this thread, as it seems to have run its course. Those who think the church's role was minuscule probably still think so, and those of us who think otherwise haven't changed our minds, either. 

[cinepro]

6 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

So  who do you think the Church influenced? The Catholic? Protestants? They make up 60% of our population.Maybe it was the 27% Atheist. If the Church has such great influence in California why are the membership numbers 1% or less.

Mormons in CA - 773k

California population - 39m

~2%?

[rockpond]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Given this-

"By election day, volunteers on both sides spent thousands of hours getting their messages across to the state's 17.3 million registered voters.[47][48] The campaigns for and against Proposition 8 raised $39.0 million ($11.3 million or 29.1% from outside California) and $44.1 million ($13.2 million or 30.0% from outside California), respectively,[49] from over 64,000 people in all 50 states and more than 20 foreign countries, setting a new record nationally for a social policy initiative and more than for every other race in the country in spending except the presidential contest.[50]Contributions were much greater than those of previous same-sex marriage initiatives. Between 2004 and 2006, 22 such measures were on ballots around the country, and donations to all of them combined totaled $31.4 million, according to the nonpartisan National Institute on Money in State Politics.[51] A ProtectMarriage.com spokeswoman estimated that 36 companies which had previously contributed to Equality California were targeted to receive a letter requesting similar donations to ProtectMarriage.com."

I'm not sure how we can even know that the church was unique in punching above its weight and so deserves the accusation when others don't (if the accusation is even a bad thing, which i can't really see that it is but maybe it's meant as one, i really can't tell).  I don't think it's possible to punch above one's weight in a state where you live.  And if we are counting those who didn't live in California, the opposition to prop. 8 seems to have punched above it's weight more than the mormons did.

 

So Mormons, who constitute 2% of the CA population, raised roughly 50% of the funds used to promote the proposition... that isn't punching above its weight?

[bluebell]

42 minutes ago, rockpond said:

So Mormons, who constitute 2% of the CA population, raised roughly 50% of the funds used to promote the proposition... that isn't punching above its weight?

Like I said before, when it comes to the state where you personally live, I don't think it's possible to punch above your weight.   

[rodheadlee]

12 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I have no idea how successful their efforts at influencing people were, but those efforts were not minuscule. 

I'll agree their efforts were large, but I don't think there is evidence of their influence, most all of us Californians have a rebellious streak a mile wide.

Edited May 24, 2016 by rodheadlee

[rodheadlee]

6 hours ago, cinepro said:

Mormons in CA - 773k

California population - 39m

~2%?

So the membership has doubled in California since 2014? I quoted wiki for my stats.

Edited May 24, 2016 by rodheadlee

[california boy]

4 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I'll agree their efforts were large, but I don't think there is evidence of their influence, most all of us Californians have a rebellious streak a mile wide.

So basically you are saying that all the money time and sacrifice members of the church made at the request of their church leaders show no evidence that it changed the outcome. What a colossal waste and abuse of power. All that time and money put into taking away the civil rights of gay couples and all the church got out of it was more doors slammed in the face of missionaries by people who think it is wrong to discriminate. 

[Meadowchik]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

So basically you are saying that all the money time and sacrifice members of the church made at the request of their church leaders show no evidence that it changed the outcome. What a colossal waste and abuse of power. All that time and money put into taking away the civil rights of gay couples and all the church got out of it was more doors slammed in the face of missionaries by people who think it is wrong to discriminate. 

The colossal change made regarding the understood construct of marriage merits a testimony of the arguments against it. The Church and others bore that testimony.

[california boy]

57 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

The colossal change made regarding the understood construct of marriage merits a testimony of the arguments against it. The Church and others bore that testimony.

Well for 20 million dollars and thousands of man-hours, spent on taking away the fundamental rights of gay couples, I hope the church felt like it got its moneys worth.  There is no denying that they made a big impact.  The church is now known through out the world as the religion that took away gay marriage, however briefly, from gay couples.  Hurrah 

[Gray]

5 minutes ago, california boy said:

Well for 20 million dollars and thousands of man-hours, spent on taking away the fundamental rights of gay couples, I hope the church felt like it got its moneys worth.  There is no denying that they made a big impact.  The church is now known through out the world as the religion that took away gay marriage, however briefly, from gay couples.  Hurrah 

We are in another shameful chapter in church history, similar to our mistaken position that black people should be denied the priesthood. Repentance for this mistake will be painful, but hopefully transformative. We did not learn from the mistakes of the priesthood ban. I hope the lessons from the ban on the children of gay parents will eventually sink in.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Gray

[california boy]

What is really odd to me is that Mormons are ok with marrying another mans wife, but freak out over the idea that a gay couple wants to marry and have someone to share this life with.  Even today, Mormon men are marrying another mans wife.  I know of one poster on this board who has married another mans wife and seems to be ok with that.  To me, that is way more creepy and hard to understand.  I guess we all choose what we want to believe and condemn others for not having our same beliefs on what is the will of God.

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

So basically you are saying that all the money time and sacrifice members of the church made at the request of their church leaders show no evidence that it changed the outcome. What a colossal waste and abuse of power. All that time and money put into taking away the civil rights of gay couples and all the church got out of it was more doors slammed in the face of missionaries by people who think it is wrong to discriminate. 

 

1 hour ago, Gray said:

We are in another shameful chapter in church history, similar to our mistaken position that black people should be denied the priesthood. Repentance for this mistake will be painful, but hopefully transformative. We did not learn from the mistakes of the priesthood ban. I hope the lessons from the ban on the children of gay parents will eventually sink in.

Wether it was right or wrong for tthe church to oppose SSM is beyond the scope of this thread. Perhap you could start your own thread on this subject. I think this thread has run it's course.

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Well for 20 million dollars and thousands of man-hours, spent on taking away the fundamental rights of gay couples, I hope the church felt like it got its moneys worth.  There is no denying that they made a big impact.  The church is now known through out the world as the religion that took away gay marriage, however briefly, from gay couples.  Hurrah 

Yeah it's amazing how no one blames the Black Protestant churches or the Roman Catholic Church.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Yeah it's amazing how no one blames the Black Protestant churches or the Roman Catholic Church.

You obviously haven't even bothered to read your own thread that you started.

[rodheadlee]

10 hours ago, california boy said:

You obviously haven't even bothered to read your own thread that you started.

Yeah, I've tried to, I've been going to school 3 days a week and studying 24/7 while trying to work a business. So in sumnation the Church put out a huge effort with just enough influence to be the straw that broke the camel's back and caused Prop 8 to be passed. but "the judge wasn't going to look at the 27- 8"x10" color glossy photos" and prop 8 was denied as un-constitutional. For extra points can you name the movie the quote was from?

Also, the stats Cinepro quoted and I quoted shows that the Church has grown 100% in California since 2014 despite their involvement in Prop 8. I also would like to say that I have come full circle and despite believing Heavenly Father will never accept SSM as an eternal law or institution I believe LGBT folks should have the right to marry. I also understand why the Church got involved and that we as a country will reap the harvest of the seeds we sow and therefore their efforts were right in their eyes.

Edited May 25, 2016 by rodheadlee

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The colossal change made regarding the understood construct of marriage merits a testimony of the arguments against it. The Church and others bore that testimony.

I tend to believe this as well. Because of prop 8, in the end no one in America will be able to say "No one told me it was wrong."  

The prophets and apostles bore testimony of it, in as public a way as possible. 

[Gray]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I tend to believe this as well. Because of prop 8, in the end no one in America will be able to say "No one told me it was wrong."  

The prophets and apostles bore testimony of it, in as public a way as possible. 

And their successors will have to walk it back, which is going to be very tricky because of the public and official nature of some of these statements. Much easier to walk something back when it was something a single apostle published in an independent book. 

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, Gray said:

And their successors will have to walk it back, which is going to be very tricky because of the public and official nature of some of these statements. Much easier to walk something back when it was something a single apostle published in an independent book. 

I don't believe that will happen.  When the prophets and apostles say that after fasting, prayer, supplication, and discussion God revealed to them this was the course to take, I believe them.  I don't personally see the point in God having prophets and apostles if His disciples can't trust them to lead them the right way.

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Also, the stats Cinepro quoted and I quoted shows that the Church has grown 100% in California since 2014 despite their involvement in Prop 8. 

I doubt this is true.  Do you have other stats that back this up?

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't believe that will happen.  When the prophets and apostles say that after fasting, prayer, supplication, and discussion God revealed to them this was the course to take, I believe them.  I don't personally see the point in God having prophets and apostles if His disciples can't trust them to lead them the right way.

The fast change from the printed policy to how it was reinterpreted tells me that this is an area that is subject to change. Personally I doubt that every member of the 15 felt good about this. But when the ideal is to always present a united front, group think can quickly set in and override the warning voice of personal conscience. 

[bluebell]

Just now, Gray said:

The fast change from the printed policy to how it was reinterpreted tells me that this is an area that is subject to change. Personally I doubt that every member of the 15 felt good about this. But when the ideal is to always present a united front, group think can quickly set in and override the warning voice of personal conscience. 

I agree it could change.  I actually expect it will.  That doesn't mean though that the original is a mistake and future iterations are what it should always have been.   I also know that God knows about group think.  He still set His church up this way despite it.  As I said before, if we can't trust our prophets and apostles, there is no reason to have them.