Popular Post stemelbow Posted June 2, 2016 Popular Post Posted June 2, 2016 1 hour ago, rockpond said: That's not what the headline says. It is so sad to me that the church continues to use its time, energy, and waning influence in an effort to deny rights to a minority. Yeah...I had hoped the Church learned a lesson on this. this is a waste of time and energy. Better for the Church to preach outward service rather than preach a message of exclusivity and fear. Marriage is destroyed by those who lie, cheat and abuse, not by those who want to find commitment. 5
stemelbow Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 16 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Unless the Church leaders are willing to allow the Church to appear callous and indifferent with regard to the safety and the welfare of the world, they have no choice but to put up some sort of fight in defense of the traditional family. At the end of the Family Proclaimation we read the following: "WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. WE CALL UPON responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society." If the Church leaders really believe the disintegration of the traditional father/mother family will precipitate the calamitous judgments of God that will cause untold human misery, massive death and cataclysmic destruction, there is no choice but for the Church to make a defense of the traditional family. God will cause misery, death, and destruction? Well since all three already happen what's stopping God from being the culprit already? Why the need to find a new reason for the miseries of others it its already been happening, and has been happening for the whole duration of the world's existence? But besides, that which destroys marriage is lying, cheating and abuse, things that have been around for forever. How is allowing people who desire commitment and love to be married destroying anything? It's a good thing. 16 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: If the Church does not take a stand in defense of the traditional family, and the judgments of God are then poured out on the world, those so judged will demand to know why, if the LDS Church knew such calamities were absolutely going to happen, did the members just passively stand by and allow physical and spiritual death to engulf the world without making any effort to prevent such a massive tragedy. And please note that it would also be most displeasing to God if he revealed to the Church that the world stood in such mortal jeopardy but then the members just passively sat back and indifferently watched the foretold massive tragedy happen. I'm confused, what have you done about the massive tragedy that's happened around the world? are we to assume that the tragedies so described are because of God's judgment? OR are they just things that tend to happen in our world as time goes on? 16 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: When the day of the final judgment arrives, those who now think it's unjust and lacking in compassion for the Church to fight against the legalization and social acceptance of gay marriage will be able to look back with 20/20 hindsight and see it was the Church leaders who were the compassionate ones and that with love they only tried to warn the world of its mortal error and its consequential destruction. I, for one, have a sure knowledge that the devil and his earthly agents want to utterly destroy the family and the eternal role of gende. And I also know for a surety that the effort to bring acceptance to gay marriage is only one of the first steps in his planned destruction of the world. First steps? Huh? I thought marriages biggest obstacle was all the lying, cheating, and abusing that has happened in marriages, thus destroying them and turning good people against the concept. It might be the devil who is telling people that committed couples wanting to be joined in matrimony are bad for such matrimony. It might be wise to think this through. I have no doubt that there will be some lying, cheating, and abusing in gay marriages too. Those are the particular things we need to focus on, if you ask me. 2
Maedros Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 On 5/27/2016 at 6:46 PM, rockpond said: Than what would qualify as leading the church astray? To me, if the Church decided to condone and perform same-sex marriages in chapels and temples it would be leading the Church astray because such action as far as the scriptures and teachings from ancient prophets go, would be leading the Church a astray by more than a few degrees. 1
Gray Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: The reality, of course, is that even with same-sex 'marriage' having been imposed on the entirety of America's large population To date I have not been forced into a same sex marriage. When do you suppose the Gay Marriage Enforcement Squad will be by to force me to get hitched to my neighbor Larry? 3
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 23 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Yeah...I had hoped the Church learned a lesson on this. Thank you for your honesty! 1
Popular Post Gray Posted June 2, 2016 Popular Post Posted June 2, 2016 38 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Unless the Church leaders are willing to allow the Church to appear callous and indifferent with regard to the safety and the welfare of the world, they have no choice but to put up some sort of fight in defense of the traditional family. At the end of the Family Proclaimation we read the following: "WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. WE CALL UPON responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society." If the Church leaders really believe the disintegration of the traditional father/mother family will precipitate the calamitous judgments of God that will cause untold human misery, massive death and cataclysmic destruction, there is no choice but for the Church to make a defense of the traditional family. If the Church does not take a stand in defense of the traditional family, and the judgments of God are then poured out on the world, those so judged will demand to know why, if the LDS Church knew such calamities were absolutely going to happen, did the members just passively stand by and allow physical and spiritual death to engulf the world without making any effort to prevent such a massive tragedy. And please note that it would also be most displeasing to God if he revealed to the Church that the world stood in such mortal jeopardy but then the members just passively sat back and indifferently watched the foretold massive tragedy happen. When the day of the final judgment arrives, those who now think it's unjust and lacking in compassion for the Church to fight against the legalization and social acceptance of gay marriage will be able to look back with 20/20 hindsight and see it was the Church leaders who were the compassionate ones and that with love they only tried to warn the world of its mortal error and its consequential destruction. I, for one, have a sure knowledge that the devil and his earthly agents want to utterly destroy the family and the eternal role of gende. And I also know for a surety that the effort to bring acceptance to gay marriage is only one of the first steps in his planned destruction of the world. This is not a defense of the traditional family. Let's be clear about that. It's an attack on gay families. If you want to defend traditional families, you'll have to do something more relevant, like fight against abuse and adultery. 5
stemelbow Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 18 minutes ago, Maedros said: To me, if the Church decided to condone and perform same-sex marriages in chapels and temples it would be leading the Church astray because such action as far as the scriptures and teachings from ancient prophets go, would be leading the Church a astray by more than a few degrees. I don't know how to escape the circle you created--the Church would be astray because doing that would be astray. Whatever got you in there, all I can say is I'm dizzy watching you spin around in there. Might want to get out. 1
Maedros Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I don't know how to escape the circle you created--the Church would be astray because doing that would be astray. Whatever got you in there, all I can say is I'm dizzy watching you spin around in there. Might want to get out. I'm not sure what you mean - I read up until that point and added my comment to the question I quoted, PDSF.
Daniel2 Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 Despite the denials in this thread, given LDS church leaderships' call to action against civil same-sex marriage in Mexico, they apparently believe LDS involvement IS enough to cause significant change in political initiatives like these. Although I am saddened the church continues down this path, I take heart knowing that such actions have proven themselves to be counterproductive in that they've failed to stop equality for same-sex couples (and, in fact, have actually sped up the process), as well as further damaged Mormonism's failing façade of being pro-family, socially tolerant, and intellectually and legally just. 3
stemelbow Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 34 minutes ago, Maedros said: I'm not sure what you mean - I read up until that point and added my comment to the question I quoted, PDSF. Sorry for the confusion. Consider this: If the Church were astray now, how would we know?
bluebell Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 17 hours ago, rockpond said: It does seem to fit all the parameters. So there we have a possible example of how the prophet may have led the church astray. It doesn't seem to fit all the parameters though. JS began teaching and living polygamy in the early 1830s. He was killed in 1844. It doesn't seem reasonable to suggest that the Lord removed him from being prophet more than a decade after leading the church astray. Also, BY and following prophets continued to teach and practice polygamy with no 'untimely' deaths involved. The commandment didn't end for some 50 years. It doesn't make a lot of sense to argue that the Lord killed off JS for polygamy but left the next 3 prophets alive and well to continue (and expand!) the practice for 5 more decades. And, the practice of polygamy aligns really well with scripture (there are quite a few non-lds christian polygamists because of this). 1
Gray Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, bluebell said: It doesn't seem to fit all the parameters though. JS began teaching and living polygamy in the early 1830s. He was killed in 1844. It doesn't seem reasonable to suggest that the Lord removed him from being prophet more than a decade after leading the church astray. Also, BY and following prophets continued to teach and practice polygamy with no 'untimely' deaths involved. The commandment didn't end for some 50 years. It doesn't make a lot of sense to argue that the Lord killed off JS for polygamy but left the next 3 prophets alive and well to continue (and expand!) the practice for 5 more decades. And, the practice of polygamy aligns really well with scripture (there are quite a few non-lds christian polygamists because of this). I don't think God kills anyone, but as I understand it the bulk of Joseph Smith's plural marriages were entered into during the last few years of his life. The way polygamy was practiced in the early years of the church doesn't align well with biblical rules for polygamy (marrying mother and daughter, marrying married women, etc) Edited June 2, 2016 by Gray 1
stemelbow Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 7 minutes ago, bluebell said: It doesn't seem to fit all the parameters though. JS began teaching and living polygamy in the early 1830s. He was killed in 1844. It doesn't seem reasonable to suggest that the Lord removed him from being prophet more than a decade after leading the church astray. If you assume Fanny Alger was his wife, a debated point, I believe, that was closer by most accounts to mid-1830s. It was odd how there was break from the practice when it ramped up big in Nauvoo, some 6 years later. And by nearly all accounts his situation with ms. Alger was not widely known--so no leading the Church, per se. It wasn't until Nauvoo, mostly after he had married quite a few more women, that Hyrum and many others learned of the teaching and many accepting it. 7 minutes ago, bluebell said: Also, BY and following prophets continued to teach and practice polygamy with no 'untimely' deaths involved. The commandment didn't end for some 50 years. It doesn't make a lot of sense to argue that the Lord killed off JS for polygamy but left the next 3 prophets alive and well to continue (and expand!) the practice for 5 more decades. And, the practice of polygamy aligns really well with scripture (there are quite a few non-lds christian polygamists because of this). It's odd on things like this, in retrospect one could argue either way. Mostly because we only pretend to understand God. In the case of gay marriage, it'll be more and more interesting as we hear people attribute deaths and destructions to God. Such a view seems sad, though.
rockpond Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: Unless the Church leaders are willing to allow the Church to appear callous and indifferent with regard to the safety and the welfare of the world, they have no choice but to put up some sort of fight in defense of the traditional family. At the end of the Family Proclaimation we read the following: "WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. WE CALL UPON responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society." If the Church leaders really believe the disintegration of the traditional father/mother family will precipitate the calamitous judgments of God that will cause untold human misery, massive death and cataclysmic destruction, there is no choice but for the Church to make a defense of the traditional family. If the Church does not take a stand in defense of the traditional family, and the judgments of God are then poured out on the world, those so judged will demand to know why, if the LDS Church knew such calamities were absolutely going to happen, did the members just passively stand by and allow physical and spiritual death to engulf the world without making any effort to prevent such a massive tragedy. And please note that it would also be most displeasing to God if he revealed to the Church that the world stood in such mortal jeopardy but then the members just passively sat back and indifferently watched the foretold massive tragedy happen. When the day of the final judgment arrives, those who now think it's unjust and lacking in compassion for the Church to fight against the legalization and social acceptance of gay marriage will be able to look back with 20/20 hindsight and see it was the Church leaders who were the compassionate ones and that with love they only tried to warn the world of its mortal error and its consequential destruction. I, for one, have a sure knowledge that the devil and his earthly agents want to utterly destroy the family and the eternal role of gende. And I also know for a surety that the effort to bring acceptance to gay marriage is only one of the first steps in his planned destruction of the world. To make the conclusion you've outlined above, one would have to believe that there is a causal effect between legal recognition of gay marriage and the disintegration of the father/mother family. I see no reason to believe such a causal relationship exists. 4
rockpond Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Absolutely nothing. But what bearing does the 'defeat' of the Church's efforts in the US have on the report out of Mexico? And do you sincerely wish to assert that 'factual statements' carry no implications? Imagine for a moment if the headline writer had instead composed the following: 'Victorious where Hamba Tuhan lives, LDS Church takes fight against same-sex marriage to Mexico'. That's another factual statement. Would you like to argue that it doesn't alter the context and therefore the 'feel' of the headline? I see. Would you sincerely prefer that the Church had been successful in defeating same-sex 'marriage' in America. Do you honestly want the Church to be strong enough to help defeat it in Mexico? Do you truly wish that the Church's influence were 'waxing'? The defeat of the Church's efforts in the US is relevant since that is where they mounted their largest fight. I don't wish that the Church had been successful in defeating gay marriage in the US since I believe such a move would be in violation of our scripture and constitution. But, I do wish that the Church's influence was 'waxing' in other areas. 3
california boy Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: Unless the Church leaders are willing to allow the Church to appear callous and indifferent with regard to the safety and the welfare of the world, they have no choice but to put up some sort of fight in defense of the traditional family. At the end of the Family Proclaimation we read the following: "WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. WE CALL UPON responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society." If the Church leaders really believe the disintegration of the traditional father/mother family will precipitate the calamitous judgments of God that will cause untold human misery, massive death and cataclysmic destruction, there is no choice but for the Church to make a defense of the traditional family. If the Church does not take a stand in defense of the traditional family, and the judgments of God are then poured out on the world, those so judged will demand to know why, if the LDS Church knew such calamities were absolutely going to happen, did the members just passively stand by and allow physical and spiritual death to engulf the world without making any effort to prevent such a massive tragedy. And please note that it would also be most displeasing to God if he revealed to the Church that the world stood in such mortal jeopardy but then the members just passively sat back and indifferently watched the foretold massive tragedy happen. When the day of the final judgment arrives, those who now think it's unjust and lacking in compassion for the Church to fight against the legalization and social acceptance of gay marriage will be able to look back with 20/20 hindsight and see it was the Church leaders who were the compassionate ones and that with love they only tried to warn the world of its mortal error and its consequential destruction. I, for one, have a sure knowledge that the devil and his earthly agents want to utterly destroy the family and the eternal role of gende. And I also know for a surety that the effort to bring acceptance to gay marriage is only one of the first steps in his planned destruction of the world. There may very well be evil in the world that the church could take a stand against. But fighting to take away the civil rights of others is not one of them that fight is neither noble or just. Shame on the church. It is just not right. To use the trumped up and false excuse that gay marriage is attacking traditional marriage is dishonest. A campaign based on a lie eventually will fail and lead to more shame. How sad is that. 4
Daniel2 Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: The reality, of course, is that even with same-sex 'marriage' having been imposed on the entirety of America's large population... Same-sex marriage has not been "imposed on the entirety of the America's large population." That is as absurd, nonsensical, and inaccurate as saying that because the United States recognizes and respects Judaism as a religion, it has "imposed Judaism on the entirety of the American Population." Or "because the United States recognizes and allows R-rated movies, it has 'imposed R-rated movies on the entirety of the American Population'." Or "because the United States recognizes and regulates Twinkies, it has 'imposed Twinkies on the entirety of the American Population'." Or "because the United States recognizes and allows the sale of "Harry Potter" books, it has 'imposed "Harry Potter" on the entirety of the American Population'. Edited June 2, 2016 by Daniel2 2
rockpond Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 24 minutes ago, bluebell said: It doesn't seem to fit all the parameters though. JS began teaching and living polygamy in the early 1830s. He was killed in 1844. It doesn't seem reasonable to suggest that the Lord removed him from being prophet more than a decade after leading the church astray. Also, BY and following prophets continued to teach and practice polygamy with no 'untimely' deaths involved. The commandment didn't end for some 50 years. It doesn't make a lot of sense to argue that the Lord killed off JS for polygamy but left the next 3 prophets alive and well to continue (and expand!) the practice for 5 more decades. And, the practice of polygamy aligns really well with scripture (there are quite a few non-lds christian polygamists because of this). So, removing him 11 years after his first plural marriage wasn't fast enough to indicate a problem? Section 132 wasn't recorded until July of 1843. Joseph Smith was killed within a year of that. And yes, by that time the teaching was picked up and taught by prophets and apostles who had also joined in on the practice. That could be viewed as evidence that the Church had been led astray. Finally, the number of Christians who decry polygamy is magnitudes larger than those who practice it. So, I disagree that it aligns really well with scripture. It doesn't even align well with the Book of Mormon.
rockpond Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 18 minutes ago, Gray said: I don't think God kills anyone, but as I understand it the bulk of Joseph Smith's plural marriages were entered into during the last few years of his life. He averaged 10 new marriages per year for the last three years of his life.
Gray Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, rockpond said: He averaged 10 new marriages per year for the last three years of his life. Wow, that's at least 75% of them, right?
rockpond Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, Gray said: Wow, that's at least 75% of them, right? Over 85%
california boy Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 43 minutes ago, bluebell said: It doesn't seem to fit all the parameters though. JS began teaching and living polygamy in the early 1830s. He was killed in 1844. It doesn't seem reasonable to suggest that the Lord removed him from being prophet more than a decade after leading the church astray. Also, BY and following prophets continued to teach and practice polygamy with no 'untimely' deaths involved. The commandment didn't end for some 50 years. It doesn't make a lot of sense to argue that the Lord killed off JS for polygamy but left the next 3 prophets alive and well to continue (and expand!) the practice for 5 more decades. And, the practice of polygamy aligns really well with scripture (there are quite a few non-lds christian polygamists because of this). So which is it bluebell. Are you supporting traditional marriage or supporting non traditional marriage. Because it looks like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You realize that the Proclimation on the family condemns JS and other early prophets unless you don't believe it to be an eternal principle. If it is not an eternal principle, then eventually it WILL change. The only question is when 1
bluebell Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 23 minutes ago, rockpond said: So, removing him 11 years after his first plural marriage wasn't fast enough to indicate a problem? Section 132 wasn't recorded until July of 1843. Joseph Smith was killed within a year of that. And yes, by that time the teaching was picked up and taught by prophets and apostles who had also joined in on the practice. That could be viewed as evidence that the Church had been led astray. Finally, the number of Christians who decry polygamy is magnitudes larger than those who practice it. So, I disagree that it aligns really well with scripture. It doesn't even align well with the Book of Mormon. The teaching is that the Lord won't let a prophet lead the church astray. JS's death and polygamy doesn't fit that because the church practiced polygamy for 50 years afterwards. If the Lord removed JS to stop him from leading the church astray thru polygamy, the Lord failed miserably. 3 generations of church members were led astray (if polygamy was not of God) following 4 different prophets of God. If polygamy was wrong, the Lord did let the prophet (four of them in fact) lead His church astray. Given that, I don't see how anyone can argue that JS and polygamy is an example of the Lord removing a prophet to keep him from leading the church astray. It's clearly not an example of that. 2
CV75 Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 11 minutes ago, california boy said: So which is it bluebell. Are you supporting traditional marriage or supporting non traditional marriage. Because it looks like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You realize that the Proclimation on the family condemns JS and other early prophets unless you don't believe it to be an eternal principle. If it is not an eternal principle, then eventually it WILL change. The only question is when There are eternal principles (which do not change), and various practices based upon those principles, which do. The eternal principles are revealed through the Lord's keys, and the practices are legitimate for their time and place when instituted and administered under the Lord's keys.
rockpond Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 12 minutes ago, bluebell said: The teaching is that the Lord won't let a prophet lead the church astray. JS's death and polygamy doesn't fit that because the church practiced polygamy for 50 years afterwards. If the Lord removed JS to stop him from leading the church astray thru polygamy, the Lord failed miserably. 3 generations of church members were led astray (if polygamy was not of God) following 4 different prophets of God. If polygamy was wrong, the Lord did let the prophet (four of them in fact) lead His church astray. Given that, I don't see how anyone can argue that JS and polygamy is an example of the Lord removing a prophet to keep him from leading the church astray. It's clearly not an example of that. Okay... so if a prophet ever teaches an incorrect doctrine or practice (which apparently has never happened in this dispensation) they would be immediately removed (through death) and the succeeding prophet would undo/reverse whatever was taught?
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