VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 20 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Don't need to see the video. I could ask my family to consider me President, too, and if they did there would still be nothing the law could do about it. I keep telling you that when the law can prosecute, it should. Where nothing exists to prosecute, the law CAN'T and SHOULDN'T go off on its own to arbitrarily throw its power around. How would like to be persecuted because someone doesn't like your lifestyle? That's the entire point of the rule of law, and you just don't seem to get it. Break a law, and get punished. If no law is broken, then you are supposedly safe. How are they not breaking the law by forcing underage marriages and child labor? Also, many don't leave because they're brainwashed and indoctrinated. You should see their school system. That boy in the first video was 19 and had a 1st grade education.
JLHPROF Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 45 minutes ago, strappinglad said: You seem to have skipped over JLHPROF's suggestion. The culture must change. There are quite a few in the community now that are disaffected. If ' outsiders ' were to move in and help build the community in a different direction and open the FLDS to alternate views, that might also expose the wicked ways of some of the leaders to further scrutiny . What is not needed is to put such pressure on that another Jonestown scenario raises its horrific head. 17 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: How are they not breaking the law by forcing underage marriages and child labor? Also, many don't leave because they're brainwashed and indoctrinated. You should see their school system. That boy in the first video was 19 and had a 1st grade education. Nobody is saying they aren't breaking the law or doing immoral things. The problem is you don't present any solution other than rage. Going in and arresting them all will produce more problems, worse problems, create martyrs, and actually might even increase their membership. I may not have a solution, but the best solution is to end their isolation. What you seem to suggest as Strappinglad wrote, could create a Jonestown (or a Waco). Cooler heads and better thoughts.
Tacenda Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) No disrespect to those that refuse to watch the video but I'm taken aback at the lack of knowledge that goes with their comments. Is it possible that some evil men use religion to break the law? There's another video of a break off from FLDS and that is the one in Canada. There is strong evidence that Winston Blackmore may have married an under age wife. Edited March 21, 2016 by Tacenda
carbon dioxide Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 If you don't believe in the First Amendment, yes they should be shut down. If you believe in the First Amendment, they should not be shut down. They should simply be required to be in compliance with the laws. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 1 minute ago, carbon dioxide said: If you don't believe in the First Amendment, yes they should be shut down. If you believe in the First Amendment, they should not be shut down. They should simply be required to be in compliance with the laws. That works too.
sunstoned Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 3 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Maybe I will. I don't know why this is still allowed and no one seems to be up in arms about stopping it. It's like the feds got Jeffs so now they're ignoring everything else. Yes polygamy really is a culture of abuse. But this is America and people are free to believe and practice what they want. 1
The Nehor Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 3 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Then what's your solution? Just sit back and let God take care of everything? Do what the law can and for the rest....yes, let God take care of it. You are encouraging what amounts to vigilante justice. So unless we recriminalize adultery there is not much we can do.
The Nehor Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 2 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: How are they not breaking the law by forcing underage marriages and child labor? Also, many don't leave because they're brainwashed and indoctrinated. You should see their school system. That boy in the first video was 19 and had a 1st grade education. If we give the government license to start breaking up "cults" without due process of law how long before a wave of unpopularity encourages them to come after us?
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: If we give the government license to start breaking up "cults" without due process of law how long before a wave of unpopularity encourages them to come after us? But it just seems like to me that not enough is being done to help the problem.
The Nehor Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 Just now, VideoGameJunkie said: But it just seems like to me that not enough is being done to help the problem. What do you suggest then?
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 8 minutes ago, The Nehor said: What do you suggest then? Nuke them. Just kidding. I have no idea what to do to solve the problem. I wish I did and I wish someone else in charge did too. It just seems so hopeless and that's the frustrating part.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Nobody is saying they aren't breaking the law or doing immoral things. The problem is you don't present any solution other than rage. Going in and arresting them all will produce more problems, worse problems, create martyrs, and actually might even increase their membership. I may not have a solution, but the best solution is to end their isolation. What you seem to suggest as Strappinglad wrote, could create a Jonestown (or a Waco). Cooler heads and better thoughts. With both the Short Creek raid in 1953 and the Eldorado raid in 2008, children were yanked from the care of their mothers. That was deplorable. There must be a better way than that of dealing with the situation, a knee-jerk "shut-'em-down" reaction. That reminds me of the sentiment in the latter 1800s whereby some demagogues pushed for the destruction of the Church of Jesus Christ over the presence of polygamy and the occurrence of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Edited March 21, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 2
Stargazer Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: How are they not breaking the law by forcing underage marriages and child labor? Also, many don't leave because they're brainwashed and indoctrinated. You should see their school system. That boy in the first video was 19 and had a 1st grade education. I didn't say they weren't breaking the law! Jeeze, VGJ, read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. Warren Jeffs is in prison for underage marriage / child rape, so for crying out loud there has been some action taken. And you are brainwashed and indoctrinated, don't you know? Of course all Mormons are! That's what some people actually think, and is this a reason to do something about it? Your argument appears to be: the FLDS are bad, therefore their entire church must be destroyed and everyone forcibly deprogrammed. No stinking way that is just. Or even right. The exact same kind of argumentation can be used against the LDS church, but you don't seem to be able to see that. Ever hear of the "Do Something Disease"? Edited March 21, 2016 by Stargazer
thesometimesaint Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 7 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: How are they not breaking the law by forcing underage marriages and child labor? Also, many don't leave because they're brainwashed and indoctrinated. You should see their school system. That boy in the first video was 19 and had a 1st grade education. Prosecute the crime, not the belief. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782 1
Kenngo1969 Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 9 hours ago, Stargazer said: And it is now time trot out one of my favorite Man for All Seasons clips: I wish it would not make it so huge!!! Isn't one of those guys one of the Beatles or something? And Video Game Junkie, Stargazer and Five Solas ( ) are right: We cannot use the law to attack a religion qua religion. Once we've cut down all the laws, there's no place left for us to hide when we need the benefit of law.
CA Steve Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 10 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Nuke them. Just kidding. I have no idea what to do to solve the problem. I wish I did and I wish someone else in charge did too. It just seems so hopeless and that's the frustrating part. I think you will find that local Utah and Arizona authorities are just as frustrated as you. There has been a concerted effort in the last decade or so to go after those in power and their resources. The FLDS are very well funded and has an army of lawyers and local law enforcement at their disposal as well as a tight lipped community straddling two states at Short Creek. I recommend reading this book for a good view of what efforts have gone into taking them down and how well the FLDS has been able to frustrate those efforts. Answer Them Nothing: Bringing Down The Polygamous Empire of Warren Jeffs, Debra Weyermann, Chicago Review Press (August 1, 2011)
rpn Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 I am not at all persuaded that something bad is happening with the pecan harvest ---- kids benefit from learning to work early and in the communal community in which they live, how is doing the harvest materially different from the farm kids farming or the kids who clean their parents' hardware store. As for shutting them down, once we allow government to shut down religious groups that we don't like, how can we assure our own freedom to worship is protected. Do I think it would be a good idea to drop pamphlets of the actual court transcripts, or of the edict that no one can have sex except with designated "seeders" who happen to be Jeff's siblings and others who steal food from the mouths of children, and the recording where Warren Jeffs agrees he is a fallen prophet? Yes, I think it would help as much as it helps in North Korea to get out the full information. Do I think that providing information about others who still believe doctrine and elements of their faith other than that Warren Jeffs is a prophet whom they are obligated by faith to follow in the ugliness of child brides, interference in a couple's intimate lives, and anything dishonest? Of course.
mnn727 Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 16 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: That's just enabling more victims to happen and more children to suffer and more families to be destroyed just because they claim religious freedom. Its a slippery slope when you ask the government to shut down a religion. Where does it stop? 1
snowflake Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 14 hours ago, Stargazer said: Don't need to see the video. I could ask my family to consider me President, too, and if they did there would still be nothing the law could do about it. I keep telling you that when the law can prosecute, it should. Where nothing exists to prosecute, the law CAN'T and SHOULDN'T go off on its own to arbitrarily throw its power around. How would like to be persecuted because someone doesn't like your lifestyle? That's the entire point of the rule of law, and you just don't seem to get it. Break a law, and get punished. If no law is broken, then you are supposedly safe. I completely agree Stargazer. These people believe they are living the gospel. I'm sure if you would ask this group about their testimony, they would say exactly what the "LDS" sect of Mormonism would say about their "prophet". We know the church is true, we support or prophet, I know JS was a true prophet....... same story with the followers of Chris Namelka, same testimony, they all know it's true. It's sad that these groups are all the fruits of one man. As cinepro stated above, history does have a weird way of repeating itself.
thesometimesaint Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 10 minutes ago, snowflake said: I completely agree Stargazer. These people believe they are living the gospel. I'm sure if you would ask this group about their testimony, they would say exactly what the "LDS" sect of Mormonism would say about their "prophet". We know the church is true, we support or prophet, I know JS was a true prophet....... same story with the followers of Chris Namelka, same testimony, they all know it's true. It's sad that these groups are all the fruits of one man. As cinepro stated above, history does have a weird way of repeating itself. The law doesn't care if you believe in a true prophet of God or not, nor should it.
Calm Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) Legalizing polgamy might be exactly what is needed to open the community. Anyone wanting to shut down the group in any way possible want to speak up in support of that? Think about it....families that don't support Jeffs have the option of leaving without having to find a way to support themselves without exposing themselves as polygamists. People won't be afraid they will destroy their own family if they report abuse in another's. Etc. etc. Edited March 22, 2016 by Calm 1
Keq82 Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 I think the FLDS should be shut down for good. Further, it's important to mention that the FLDS are practicing the Celestial Order of Marriage, as taught by JS and BY; many religious views of the FLDS are a direct result of what early LDS leaders taught concerning polygamy.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 Decriminalize polygamy and enforce existing laws, with immunity from prosecution for reporting crimes and cooperating, and the group will reform itself.
ERayR Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 On 3/21/2016 at 6:06 PM, VideoGameJunkie said: Just watch this 20/20 piece on what the men and women have to go through and the damage that comes and then tell me why they're still allowed to operate in the United States and so close to us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBL1AmdkO2k&ebc=ANyPxKr_KhHC5AXpQjXfPU0-NymiDBxhv2fYwBtbJRCrPkyS05JVe_GF2C1JoVOFZ2U2EunEc-3msjK69Gde4457TKGO28RnOA Sounds like you would be in favor of bringing back the good old days of Kirtland and Nauvoo and Johnson's army. Do you not think that God is well aware but that agency is so important that all this other has to be allowed to protect that agency?
ERayR Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 On 3/21/2016 at 6:50 PM, VideoGameJunkie said: I'm surprised and pretty bummed that I'm the only poster here that would actually want to make an effort to stop this. No you are not. Just tell me what to do that doesn't violate God's order of freedom of agency and I will do it.
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