VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 Just watch this 20/20 piece on what the men and women have to go through and the damage that comes and then tell me why they're still allowed to operate in the United States and so close to us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBL1AmdkO2k&ebc=ANyPxKr_KhHC5AXpQjXfPU0-NymiDBxhv2fYwBtbJRCrPkyS05JVe_GF2C1JoVOFZ2U2EunEc-3msjK69Gde4457TKGO28RnOA
Popular Post Five Solas Posted March 21, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 21, 2016 Yes, let's decide such a thing based on popular press & popular opinion. Rule of law, due process--silly waste of time. Summon the mob! Everyone here was deeply satisfied the last time... ;0) --Erik 7
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 5 minutes ago, Five Solas said: Yes, let's decide such a thing based on popular press & popular opinion. Rule of law, due process--silly waste of time. Summon the mob! Everyone here was deeply satisfied the last time... ;0) --Erik Families are being ruined and it's like human trafficking. Here's another 20/20 piece once you get done with the first one. This group should not be allowed to still exist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj1HLAhi-dc
Calm Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 Write to your congressman or other representatives then. 1
cdowis Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) The Pres could issue an executive action to take care of this with his pen and a phone call. He could call it.... hmmmm.... "The Extermination Order". Or, it could be handled in the courts of law, individually, case by case, and represented by an attorney. Perhaps RICO could be invoked. In the meantime, the children could be placed under protective care. Edited March 21, 2016 by cdowis
Popular Post ttribe Posted March 21, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 21, 2016 You've received several snarky responses that (I believe) were intended to make the point that in the United States there are significant Constitutional protections afforded to freedom of religion; even ones we find distasteful. The FLDS organization is, in my opinion, a horrific organization filled with abuses and fraud. That being said, it is best left to addressing these criminal acts in the course of individual victims and crimes rather than some sweeping act of organizational destruction that then creates a precedent for wiping out any (or all) religious organizations deemed unpopular (which is a bad slippery slope). 8
Calm Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 Sorry if mine came across as snarky. Just making the only suggestion I could think of that might cause something to be actually done.
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 11 minutes ago, Calm said: Write to your congressman or other representatives then. Maybe I will. I don't know why this is still allowed and no one seems to be up in arms about stopping it. It's like the feds got Jeffs so now they're ignoring everything else.
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, ttribe said: You've received several snarky responses that (I believe) were intended to make the point that in the United States there are significant Constitutional protections afforded to freedom of religion; even ones we find distasteful. The FLDS organization is, in my opinion, a horrific organization filled with abuses and fraud. That being said, it is best left to addressing these criminal acts in the course of individual victims and crimes rather than some sweeping act of organizational destruction that then creates a precedent for wiping out any (or all) religious organizations deemed unpopular (which is a bad slippery slope). That's just enabling more victims to happen and more children to suffer and more families to be destroyed just because they claim religious freedom.
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 I'm surprised and pretty bummed that I'm the only poster here that would actually want to make an effort to stop this.
cinepro Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Just watch this 20/20 piece on what the men and women have to go through and the damage that comes and then tell me why they're still allowed to operate in the United States and so close to us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBL1AmdkO2k&ebc=ANyPxKr_KhHC5AXpQjXfPU0-NymiDBxhv2fYwBtbJRCrPkyS05JVe_GF2C1JoVOFZ2U2EunEc-3msjK69Gde4457TKGO28RnOA Those who don't learn their history are doomed to repeat it... 2
Popular Post JLHPROF Posted March 21, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 21, 2016 13 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I'm surprised and pretty bummed that I'm the only poster here that would actually want to make an effort to stop this. That's because you are only looking at one side - the evil. The other side is the result of breaking up families, ripping children from their parents, their homes, etc. If you study the history of the FLDS you will see that part of what brought about the messed up society they have today was the isolation after the previous raids on them back in the 1950s. The 50s raids were almost universally condemned, the caused the community to become complete isolationists hidden from the outside, and that gave wicked men like Jeffs room to operate with nobody watching. The results of the 2008 Texas raids weren't as extreme, but had similar results. You rip a family apart by force, they cling harder together than ever. Yes, something should be done to halt the abuse. No, storming in and arresting people will not make things better. Even with Jeffs the community has kept doing what its always done. The best thing that could be done is if a bunch of "outsiders" were to move into the communities and live among them. The culture is what needs to change, and FBI raids have never had good results. 6
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: That's because you are only looking at one side - the evil. The other side is the result of breaking up families, ripping children from their parents, their homes, etc. If you study the history of the FLDS you will see that part of what brought about the messed up society they have today was the isolation after the previous raids on them back in the 1950s. The 50s raids were almost universally condemned, the caused the community to become complete isolationists hidden from the outside, and that gave wicked men like Jeffs room to operate with nobody watching. The results of the 2008 Texas raids weren't as extreme, but had similar results. You rip a family apart by force, they cling harder together than ever. Yes, something should be done to halt the abuse. No, storming in and arresting people will not make things better. Even with Jeffs the community has kept doing what its always done. The best thing that could be done is if a bunch of "outsiders" were to move into the communities and live among them. The culture is what needs to change, and FBI raids have never had good results. Then what's your solution? Just sit back and let God take care of everything?
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) The local police are in the pockets of the polygamist church and won't do anything. Edited March 21, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie
strappinglad Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 You are probably preaching to the choir VGJ , but it is a choir whose ancestors were subjected to the exact same attitude . Property was burned, men were killed, men were jailed, and women were abused. It was done with the full force of local and federal law. The US Army was even sent to finish the job. Such events have burned deeply within the collective memories and made many very hesitant to raise torches and pitchforks against another group, particularly a ' religious ' group. As has been said , all due process must be followed but it is not incorrect to keep the pressure on to stop child abuse and fraud etc. One must be careful not to let righteous indignation overwhelm the rights of others to live as they see fit , and to benefit from the rule of law no matter how strange one sees the group. We have the ham-fisted way in which government officials dealt with the wives and children during the last raid on the community. To break up families like that was not much different than what Jeffs was doing , except Jeffs did it behind closed doors. 2
Stargazer Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 Five Solas is right, VGJ. You can't just shut down a religion because there's a problem with how things are done. A little something called the First Amendment gets in the way. What can be done, however, is prosecute where there is actual evidence of lawbreaking. There are apparently some members of the FLDS living in our area. From time to time I see women dressed in how-made long skirts with their hair up in buns and wearing little hat-like things. Usually in pairs. They have the opportunity to flee if they wish, but don't. You can't argue that they are being held in some kind of slavery. If they wanted to run they could. Not all are dissatisfied with their lives. The last time the government did something drastic there was a stink as high as heaven about it. Perhaps you don't remember.
Popular Post Stargazer Posted March 21, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) And it is now time trot out one of my favorite Man for All Seasons clips: I wish it would not make it so huge!!! Edited March 21, 2016 by Stargazer 5
Stargazer Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 12 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: The local police are in the pockets of the polygamist church and won't do anything. What would you think should be done if you were married, and your wife and you decided you could take on another woman into your marriage, and simply treat her as a wife and not marry her? Would you be guilty of bigamy or polygamy, as defined in the law? Of course not! It may used to have been so, but now you can whore around with as many women who are willing to put up with it, and the law can't do diddly about it. Unless you actually marry someone while married to someone else. So, go ahead, find a legal means to stop a man and five women from living together, whether or not they use each other sexually. It ain't happening, bro. It's modern times. The only thing you can do is find where a law is being broken and prosecute that.
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 1 minute ago, Stargazer said: What would you think should be done if you were married, and your wife and you decided you could take on another woman into your marriage, and simply treat her as a wife and not marry her? Would you be guilty of bigamy or polygamy, as defined in the law? Of course not! It may used to have been so, but now you can whore around with as many women who are willing to put up with it, and the law can't do diddly about it. Unless you actually marry someone while married to someone else. So, go ahead, find a legal means to stop a man and five women from living together, whether or not they use each other sexually. It ain't happening, bro. It's modern times. The only thing you can do is find where a law is being broken and prosecute that. The problem I have with the FLDS isn't polygamy, it's child rape and child labor and banishment from the community for no good reason for many members with no support. 2
Stargazer Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: The problem I have with the FLDS isn't polygamy, it's child rape and child labor and banishment from the community for no good reason for many members with no support. You can prosecute rape. Child labor is a bit more difficult -- could you accuse your parents of it, if you didn't want to do your chores? As for banishment from the community, I had to kick one of my sons out at age 19 because he insisted on hanging around ex-convicts who stole from us. He got no support from us and had to make his own way. Should I be prosecuted for that? If their behavior does not rise to the level of actually breaking the law, they can be as mean as they like and there's diddly you can do about it. Unless you want to operate a totalitarian government that does things arbitrarily. Just throw out the rule of law, and bob's your uncle! Except you better watch out for your own freedom! What if the people in power take a disliking to how you live your own life? 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Calm said: Write to your congressman or other representatives then. They won't do anything about it.
Tacenda Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) I'm right there with you VGJ. But when the law did step in it created sympathy from the outside world for the families and it didn't help whatsoever. I do believe they have a religious right, but when you see the evil that is being done, I know how you want to change that. Recently they've been taken to court for having evaded tax laws and ripping off the welfare system. I think this hopefully will break open some abuse going on. Also, they are making sure that they get non FLDS police in there, don't know if that's been done yet. And when they believe that Warren and his brother speak for God that doesn't help either. https://news.vice.com/article/food-stamp-fraud-could-bring-down-a-polygamous-sect-of-the-mormon-church-flds This is more current.... http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/07/us/flds-justice-department-warren-jeffs/ Edited March 21, 2016 by Tacenda
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Stargazer said: You can prosecute rape. Child labor is a bit more difficult -- could you accuse your parents of it, if you didn't want to do your chores? As for banishment from the community, I had to kick one of my sons out at age 19 because he insisted on hanging around ex-convicts who stole from us. He got no support from us and had to make his own way. Should I be prosecuted for that? If their behavior does not rise to the level of actually breaking the law, they can be as mean as they like and there's diddly you can do about it. Unless you want to operate a totalitarian government that does things arbitrarily. Just throw out the rule of law, and bob's your uncle! Except you better watch out for your own freedom! What if the people in power take a disliking to how you live your own life? The problem is that community doesn't follow a government, they run a theocracy where everyone thinks Warren Jeffs is the President of the United States. Just watch the video. Edited March 21, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie
strappinglad Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 You seem to have skipped over JLHHPROF's suggestion. The culture must change. There are quite a few in the community now that are disaffected. If ' outsiders ' were to move in and help build the community in a different direction and open the FLDS to alternate views, that might also expose the wicked ways of some of the leaders to further scrutiny . What is not needed is to put such pressure on that another Jonestown scenario raises its horrific head. 2
Stargazer Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 15 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: The problem is that community doesn't follow a government, they run a theocracy where everyone thinks Warren Jeffs is the President of the United States. Just watch the video. Don't need to see the video. I could ask my family to consider me President, too, and if they did there would still be nothing the law could do about it. I keep telling you that when the law can prosecute, it should. Where nothing exists to prosecute, the law CAN'T and SHOULDN'T go off on its own to arbitrarily throw its power around. How would like to be persecuted because someone doesn't like your lifestyle? That's the entire point of the rule of law, and you just don't seem to get it. Break a law, and get punished. If no law is broken, then you are supposedly safe. 1
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