"If any of you lack wisdom..."- Elder Ballard

[TheSkepticChristian]

"James did not say if any of you lack wisdom let him google" - Elder Ballard

"Wise people do not rely on the internet to diagnose health challenges, they seek licensed medical professionals" 

"even then, prudent people seek a second opinion" for Peer-review and Consensus?

"We should seek those with Academic training for help... with expertise and fields of church history" 

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch/evening-with-a-general-authority/2016/02?lang=eng

I am glad (I am not being sarcastic) that Elder Ballard is teaching us that we should listen to the experts and real researchers. Real research is not a google search, youtube videos, or internet blogs. So I agree we should take the experts seriously, in my opinion the experts are medical doctors, climate scientists, biologists, ETC. I am also glad that Elder Ballard was probably talking about the importance of medical, scholarly, and scientific consensus.    

Consensus - " a general agreement about something"

 

Edited February 27, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[Monster]

Not sure where you are going with the OP, but there are plenty of educated and knowledgeable people who are critical of the church. Should we discount them? In fact many are probably more knowledgeable about the history of the church than the average general authority.

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

... I am glad (I am not being sarcastic) ... [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969]

That would be a rare occurrence for you.  Frankly, your constant sneering has grown rather tiresome.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Monster said:

Not sure where you are going with the OP, but there are plenty of educated and knowledgeable people who are critical of the church. Should we discount them?

We should discount anyone who is wrong regardless of education.

[consiglieri]

And we should also discount anyone who is wrong regardless of position.

[rockpond]

There was also an interesting admission in Elder Ballard's address about how CES used to treat the tough issues:

“As Church education moves forward in the 21st century, each of you needs to consider any changes you should make in the way you prepare to teach, how you teach and what you teach if you are to build unwavering faith in the lives of our precious youth,” Elder Ballard said. “Gone are the days when a student asked an honest question and a teacher responded, ‘Don’t worry about it!’ Gone are the days when a student raised a sincere concern and a teacher bore his or her testimony as a response intended to avoid the issue. Gone are the days when students were protected from people who attacked the Church.”

[rockpond]

Overall, I think it was a great message for CES employees to hear.  He's clearly telling them that they need to address challenging issues head on with the youth to prepare them.  I'm hopeful we'll see a lot more of that in the church.  

He also said:  “Teach our young people that in the Lord’s Church, there is room for all to worship, serve and grow together as brothers and sisters in the gospel,” he counseled.

I hope the Church's actions and policies can also live up to that. 

[HappyJackWagon]

The address to CES teachers was refreshing. There is some really good stuff in there. I really like the warning against "overclaiming" and the study he cites. http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2015/07/14/0956797615588195.abstract

Overclaiming is a natural tendency all need to be aware of and protect against. To me this sounds like an argument against dogma.

 

[volgadon]

7 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

 

So I agree we should take the experts seriously, in my opinion the experts are medical doctors, climate scientists, biologists, ETC.

 

 

In their respective fields.

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The address to CES teachers was refreshing. There is some really good stuff in there. I really like the warning against "overclaiming" and the study he cites. http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2015/07/14/0956797615588195.abstract

Overclaiming is a natural tendency all need to be aware of and protect against. To me this sounds like an argument against dogma.

 

Excellent point.

[theplains]

3 hours ago, rockpond said:

There was also an interesting admission in Elder Ballard's address about how CES used to treat the tough issues:

“As Church education moves forward in the 21st century, each of you needs to consider any changes you should make in the way you prepare to teach, how you teach and what you teach if you are to build unwavering faith in the lives of our precious youth,” Elder Ballard said. “Gone are the days when a student asked an honest question and a teacher responded, ‘Don’t worry about it!’ Gone are the days when a student raised a sincere concern and a teacher bore his or her testimony as a response intended to avoid the issue. Gone are the days when students were protected from people who attacked the Church.”

That's why the LDS Church of the past had the 5 volume set titled "Answers to Gospel Questions".

Thanks,

Jim

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, consiglieri said:

And we should also discount anyone who is wrong regardless of position.

I would give you a rep point but apparently you are forbidden from getting rep points.

[UtahTexan]

12 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

"James did not say if any of you lack wisdom let him google" - Elder Ballard

"Wise people do not rely on the internet to diagnose health challenges, they seek licensed medical professionals" 

"even then, prudent people seek a second opinion" for Peer-review and Consensus?

"We should seek those with Academic training for help... with expertise and fields of church history" 

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch/evening-with-a-general-authority/2016/02?lang=eng

I am glad (I am not being sarcastic) that Elder Ballard is teaching us that we should listen to the experts and real researchers. Real research is not a google search, youtube videos, or internet blogs. So I agree we should take the experts seriously, in my opinion the experts are medical doctors, climate scientists, biologists, ETC. I am also glad that Elder Ballard was probably talking about the importance of medical, scholarly, and scientific consensus.    

Consensus - " a general agreement about something"

 

So most of us understand that seeking, in this context, is asking Heavenly Father....from who should you request a second opinion....is there someone higher than Heavenly Father to whom you can direct me?

Edited February 27, 2016 by CountryBoy

[Avatar4321]

10 hours ago, consiglieri said:

And we should also discount anyone who is wrong regardless of position.

I agree. But do you really want everyone discounting you?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

I agree. But do you really want everyone discounting you?

Sounds like a good idea to me!

[Scott Lloyd]

When Elder Ballard spoke of those who "over-claim," I thought of those who fuss and sputter because Correlation hinders them from expounding their pet theories and theological hobbies in Sunday School classes and other Church venues. 

[sunstoned]

On 2/27/2016 at 0:44 PM, Teancum said:

I would give you a rep point but apparently you are forbidden from getting rep points.

I also tried, but found the option not available on his account.

Edited February 29, 2016 by sunstoned

[The Nehor]

17 hours ago, Monster said:

Not sure where you are going with the OP, but there are plenty of educated and knowledgeable people who are critical of the church. Should we discount them?

Yes.

[canard78]

19 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

When Elder Ballard spoke of those who "over-claim," I thought of those who fuss and sputter because Correlation hinders them from expounding their pet theories and theological hobbies in Sunday School classes and other Church venues. 

My late grandpa-in-law was sat with me in priesthood once when the teacher started speculating about the location and conditions on Kolob. Grandpa waited a few moments and then raised a hand and said: "Brother, that's conjecture. Move on." 

[Sleeper Cell]

On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 8:19 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

Overclaiming is a natural tendency all need to be aware of and protect against. To me this sounds like an argument against dogma.

To me, your last sentence sounds like overclaiming.

[stemelbow]

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 8:55 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

When Elder Ballard spoke of those who "over-claim," I thought of those who fuss and sputter because Correlation hinders them from expounding their pet theories and theological hobbies in Sunday School classes and other Church venues. 

Sadly over-claiming has been a big issue in the Church with things like the leaders telling us the why of the priesthood ban.  Issues like how the leaders talk about gays, approach the issue, changes over time too, as over-claiming on their part occurred.  It seems obvious as history has it, the leaders over-claim today on some things.  We all do it to some extent or another.  We really ought to make room for it to some level.  But I think it wise to state we ought to be careful with it.

 

To me, complaining about the individual member who really longs for a place to be able to talk about difficult issues in the Church is wrongheaded.  The Church should be a safe place where we are free to share and speak about the troubles in our souls.  It's feels rare for me to see those who complain about the Church's "don't speak about the difficult issues, lest you detour from correlated materials" to be those who want to speculate on the condition of Kolob, but rather those who wish to ask about and talk about the issues that trouble members in practice.  But everyone is different.

 

Edited February 29, 2016 by stemelbow

[stemelbow]

Now that I think about it, over-claiming was rampant at my Church yesterday.  Our Stake President spoke in Sacrament meeting, than after that he answered questions for Gospel Doctrine--meaning he prepped for some questions which he prepped for answers than asked people to contribute.  At first I had hoped for some interesting discussion, but it wasn't interesting as it turned out.  Of course, much like a politician in today's climate he answered what he wanted, in a way that was nothing but over-claiming on his part.  I'd say that whole meeting was a throw-away, sadly.  The idea that he was going to answer any particular questions that troubled people is kind of silly in a sense, because he just some guy in the stake, in a real way.  He has no special channel of answers and it showed.   As it turned out he spoke at us the whole time, as he tends to be the type that loves to hear himself talk (I'm not upset with him, that's just the reality of who he is).

The messages I got out of it were:  He was excited about the missionary age change, at first, but thanks to video games missionaries coming home early has spiked as a result.  Kids are going out at 18 who have no business going out because, mind you, the video games are ruining these kids.  I wouldn't say he doesn't have a point to some degree, but to claim it as if he knows the cause and effect of it, is really over-claiming without doing much research into it.  On this question about missionaries, which was one he prepped because his answer did not tie in with the question that was asked by the audience member, he added a story about a missionary who went out in the stake and was excommunicated upon returning early--a story which didn't seem to really mean much other than to talk about someone in a bad way, someone many of us know. 

Medical marijuana is bad.  he knows it, he's a prosecutor after all.  The Church opposed one of two bills that are considered in Utah, because says he, people are interested in the bill, because they want to claim medical use because they have a hangnail.  Kind of an odd view of those who are for it, I'd say, and most likely over-claiming.  But kind of  a topic of low interest for me, overall. 

He didnt' address my question which was, "Joseph Smith once said a grand fundamental principal of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may. Suggesting that goodness and truth can come from outside the Church channels, perhaps shedding light on us and our religion and people in a way we simply wouldn't expect.  But it feels like the Church is doubling down, if you will, in us, the membership, needing to give strict heed to the leaders.  The Church is putting out official statements at what feels like an increasing rate, in some measure, it feels like, to keep the membership in line.  The messaging certainly make it seem like we ought not look elsewhere to find truth but right at the prophet.  how can we reconcile or balance this?"

He preferred softball I think. 

I think he answered about four questions and took a good 10 or 15 on each while we were supposed to sit and listen, I guess, taking his sometimes weird claims at face value because he said them.  It feels like he over-claimed in each of his responses, I'd say, but I'd have to re listen to make sure.  Too bad it wasn't recorded. 

 

Anyway, thought I'd throw that out there.  It feels like leaders can over-claim but if some average members tries it at Church he/she's a problem.  Kind of a funny view and perspective we have.

[rodheadlee]

On 2/27/2016 at 7:48 AM, consiglieri said:

And we should also discount anyone who is wrong regardless of position.

Discount them or their position?

[rodheadlee]

On 2/27/2016 at 4:00 AM, Monster said:

Not sure where you are going with the OP, but there are plenty of educated and knowledgeable people who are critical of the church. Should we discount them? In fact many are probably more knowledgeable about the history of the church than the average general authority.

Just because you are intelligent and have much knowledge  it does not mean you are wise. What you do with that intelligence and knowledge is what decides if you are wise or not in God's eyes or in man's eyes.

[HappyJackWagon]

11 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

To me, your last sentence sounds like overclaiming.

Cute response but can you explain why? Did you look at the study?

How is "Overclaiming is a natural tendency all need to be aware of and protect against. To me this sounds like an argument against dogma" an example of overclaiming. Maybe you're right but I don't see it. I'd appreciate if you could help me see your point.

 

Overclaiming in a religious setting where eternal salvation/damnation are on the line, claiming knowledge of God's will, borders on taking the Lord's name in vain. Speaking and judging for God seems to be a great example of overclaimining.