Thinking Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) The Deseret News just released an article titled Do convicted criminals deserve to die? There have been times in my life when I believed in the death penalty, but I don't anymore. Mistakes can't be fixed. The executioner (who represents the people) is performing the same act for which the convicted killer is being punished. Killing the the killer doesn't bring back the victim. I think it is impossible to forgive somebody you just killed. I don't expect everybody to agree with me, but I would like to read your thoughts. I would also like to know what your real opinion is, not just what a bunch of cherry-picked verses say. Thanks. Edited February 18, 2016 by Thinking
Calm Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) I can't make up my mind. I wonder about victims who don't have a moment's peace just because they fell the one who hurt them is still out there emotionally even when they know the person is in lockup and maybe worrying that somehow he will get out one day because of a technicality or mistake. Also it seems like those who are in prison for life have little reason to avoid violence. Haven't read the article yet, I would be interested in hearing if there is evidence that such may contribute to levels of violence in prisons. OTOH, there is all the stuff you listed plus the huge cost of death penalty cases and how it may cause a society to value human life less. Edited February 18, 2016 by Calm 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Yes it would free up prison overcrowding.
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Calm said: I can't make up my mind. I wonder about victims who don't have a moment's peace just because they fell the one who hurt them is still out there emotionally even when they know the person is in lockup I think a life sentence is worst than capital punishment. Murderers don't deserve a better death than those that die from Cancer, criminals that are executed don't suffer a painful death. 20 minutes ago, Calm said: Also it seems like those who are in prison for life has little reason to avoid violence. It doesn't matter if violent criminals fight each other, what I am concerned about is nonviolent criminals. The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world, we need to end that! We need Sanders! Edited February 18, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian 1
Calm Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 7 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Yes it would free up prison overcrowding. Only if they executed for a lot lesser prison sentences.
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 11 minutes ago, Calm said: Only if they executed for a lot lesser prison sentences. First degree murder should qualify.
halconero Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 25 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Yes it would free up prison overcrowding. Ending the War on Drugs and using the same amount of money on rehabilitation and jobs programs would be a far better option. 3
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 9 minutes ago, halconero said: Ending the War on Drugs and using the same amount of money on rehabilitation and jobs programs would be a far better option. I completely agree, that is why our church shouldn't get involved in politics
Calm Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 30 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: First degree murder should qualify. Nationally only 7% of the prison population are lifers as of Sept 2014: http://www.sentencingproject.org/detail/news.cfm?news_id=1875
Calm Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 20 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I completely agree, that is why our church shouldn't get involved in politics And if they were pushing for rehabilitation and job programs?
strappinglad Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 In theory I agree with the death penalty. In practice I don't. The Ted Bundys of the world deserve swift justice , but we also have the Maos and the Pol Pots who never seem to get their just reward. Too many errors and too many high priced lawyers make for massive imbalances in who actually gets the death penalty. So, for me, as long as a life sentence actually means life without parole, I can do without the death penalty. 3
CV75 Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Thinking said: The Deseret News just released an article titled Do convicted criminals deserve to die? There have been times in my life when I believed in the death penalty, but I don't anymore. Mistakes can't be fixed. The executioner (who represents the people) is performing the same act for which the convicted killer is being punished. Killing the the killer doesn't bring back the victim. I think it is impossible to forgive somebody you just killed. I don't expect everybody to agree with me, but I would like to read your thoughts. I would also like to know what your real opinion is, not just what a bunch of cherry-picked verses say. Thanks. I think both murderers and protectors would agree that anyone that isn’t needed alive should be killed. A murderer is determining need on a selfish, instant-gratification and convenience basis, and the protector on a longer-term, selfless, and life-or-death basis. I think societies are made healthier by the latter attitude. No society is perfect but we need to do our best. I think it interesting that at the same time a society becomes more violent, it also becomes more comfortable with abortion, suicide and euthanasia, and less comfortable with capital punishment. I think this mindset requires valuing the individual who can make decisions for himself even if imposed upon others ("the strong") above the group making decisions recognizing that it is partly comprised of the most vulnerable who cannot, which includes the murdered by virtue of their legacy and its impact on the living ("the weak"). Edited February 18, 2016 by CV75
Calm Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Quote I think both murderers and protectors would agree that anyone that isn’t needed alive should be killed.I think both murderers and protectors would agree that anyone that isn’t needed alive should be killed. I think you might want to rephrase that. My mother isn't needed alive at the moment. Quote a society becomes more violent, it also becomes...less comfortable with capital punishment. CFR please
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Calm said: And if they were pushing for rehabilitation and job programs? Are they? and do we need a church to tell us what laws, policies, and programs our country needs? 44 minutes ago, CV75 said: I think both murderers and protectors would agree that anyone that isn’t needed alive should be killed. especially private prisons! Capital punishment benefits private prison owners! More new prisoners, the better for them! Edited February 18, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Avatar4321 Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 I do. There are countless records of people being executed. I can't deny the sheer evidence of the record. I can promise you it really does happen 3
strappinglad Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 I will add one thought. I think the convicted murderer should get a choice of life in prison or death. I also think that if death is chosen it should be self administered. I can think of several machines that could do the job without direct external influence. I can even agree to the choice being offered every 10 years just in case there is a change of heart.
Freedom Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Yes I believe in capital punishment. In fact, I have significant proof that it exists. In my opinion, it is too expensive. It is significantly more expensive to put someone to death than to just keep them in prison. Further, there is no evidence that capital punishment reduces crime. It does not work.
strappinglad Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 They say it does reduce the recidivism rates though. 1
sjdawg Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 I do not believe in it. I don't believe men can be trusted to ensure it is done fairly and properly. 2
smac97 Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 3 hours ago, Thinking said: The Deseret News just released an article titled Do convicted criminals deserve to die? There have been times in my life when I believed in the death penalty, but I don't anymore. Mistakes can't be fixed. True. This and the flaws exposed by the Innocence Project are the two fundamental concerns for me regarding capital punishment. Quote The executioner (who represents the people) is performing the same act for which the convicted killer is being punished. Well, no. There is a legal maxim that is useful here: Affectio Tua Nomen Imponit Operi Tuo. Essentially, it means "Your motive gives the name to your act." A man who plans for and causes the death of his wife so that he can marry his mistress has committed murder. A police officer who draws his weapon and shoots and kills an armed psycho about to kill an innocent bystander has not committed murder. Both have deliberately caused the death of another human being. But the former is a murderer and the latter is a hero. Motive matters. The presence or absence of malice matters. So no, an executioner carrying out a lawful order, which order was arrived at at the conclusion of an enormously complex and detailed legal process, and who has no malice in his heart, is not committing "the same act" as the murderer being executed. Quote Killing the the killer doesn't bring back the victim. Putting a rapist in prison doesn't return the victim to status quo ante, either. Quote I think it is impossible to forgive somebody you just killed. I'm not sure what this means. The executioner has not been wronged, and hence has no need to forgive the murderer. Meanwhile, what are your thoughts about the death of Nehor in Alma 1? And what about Alma 43:37 ("And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed.")? Quote I don't expect everybody to agree with me, but I would like to read your thoughts. I would also like to know what your real opinion is, not just what a bunch of cherry-picked verses say. I have deep-seated concerns about "Prevalent Causes of Wrongful Convictions in Capital Cases." For me it's not so much the principle of capital punishment. I think it can be an acceptable and appropriate and moral component of a society. Rather, my concerns stem from the process leading up to a conviction on a capital crime. I don't think we do it very well. Thanks, -Smac 3
Calm Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: I will add one thought. I think the convicted murderer should get a choice of life in prison or death. I also think that if death is chosen it should be self administered. I can think of several machines that could do the job without direct external influence. I can even agree to the choice being offered every 10 years just in case there is a change of heart. Interesting idea.
Calm Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Quote So no, an executioner carrying out a lawful order, which order was arrived at at the conclusion of an enormously complex and detailed legal process, and who has no malice in his heart, is not committing "the same act" as the murderer being executed. Still not a job I would wish on anyone or their family.
Thinking Posted February 18, 2016 Author Posted February 18, 2016 8 minutes ago, smac97 said: A man who plans for and causes the death of his wife so that he can marry his mistress has committed murder. A police officer who draws his weapon and shoots and kills an armed psycho about to kill an innocent bystander has not committed murder. Both have deliberately caused the death of another human being. But the former is a murderer and the latter is a hero. Motive matters. The presence or absence of malice matters. So no, an executioner carrying out a lawful order, which order was arrived at at the conclusion of an enormously complex and detailed legal process, and who has no malice in his heart, is not committing "the same act" as the murderer being executed. The police officer killing an armed psycho about to kill an innocent bystander is different than the executioner killing a convicted man who is restrained and is not about to kill anybody. 8 minutes ago, smac97 said: Putting a rapist in prison doesn't return the victim to status quo ante, either. Nowhere in my post did I assert that the criminal shouldn't be punished. 8 minutes ago, smac97 said: I'm not sure what this means. The executioner has not been wronged, and hence has no need to forgive the murderer. In the OP I indicated that the executioner represents the people. 8 minutes ago, smac97 said: Meanwhile, what are your thoughts about the death of Nehor in Alma 1? And what about Alma 43:37 ("And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed.")? The killing of a man as a punishment is not the same as killing in defense of others.
mrmarklin Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 I don't want to breathe the same air as murderers. Fry 'em all.
Tacenda Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 1 hour ago, sjdawg said: I do not believe in it. I don't believe men can be trusted to ensure it is done fairly and properly. Oh man, The Green Mile just came to mind. 1
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