TheSkepticChristian Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) On 2/20/2016 at 10:34 AM, carbon dioxide said: Norway also sentenced a man to 21 years in prison for killing 77 people which comes out to about 3 months per victim. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/world/europe/anders-behring-breivik-murder-trial.html If someone murders my kids, I don't care about them being getting rehab. I want justice for my kids. If they don't get to live or to be free to walk the earth, so should the person who killed them should not be given that. Are you sure you want him to go to the spirit world as soon as possible? Don't you believe that someone (perhaps Jesus) is going to preach him the gospel? and prisoners don't suffer during execution! The lethal injection simply puts them to sleep. Their victims suffer a painful death, but not them. Makes no sense at all!! 21 years is a very short time, he deserves at least 100+ years if it is true that he killed 77. Edited February 21, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Meadowchik Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 12 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: One of my many shortcomings is that I don't always understand even the clarification. But I do try. I too favor rehabilitation. Morality aside; it costs a lot less money in the long run in that it turns liabilities into assets. Unfortunately some very few will never, in this life, become assets. For those very few prison is the only option. Even there I think it is incumbent on us the treat them humanely. It says more about us that it does about them when we don't. I do appreciate any common ground we can arrive at. But always agreeing with anyone is kinda boring. The American prison system seems an obvious and terrible failure in many regards. Yet, for example, I'm grateful that the man who murdered the daughter of my friends last Fall has been caught and is no longer roaming free. Her parents said something before he was apprehended...they expressed the determination to not allow this dark evil he brought to then to pull them down into destruction. I admire that. 1
Teancum Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) I am in favor of life. I vehemently oppose abortion and I oppose capital punishment. However for an offender that commits a crime that could warrant capital punishment I am fine with life long incarceration with no parole. The person would also deserve solitary confinement with maybe only an hour or two a day outside their prison cell. Edited February 21, 2016 by Teancum
Vance Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 2 Ne 9:35 Wo unto the murderer who deliberately killeth, for he shall die. Alma 42:18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man. 19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder? 20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
Vance Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. If you want to be executed, just go murder someone.
Teancum Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 5 hours ago, Vance said: 2 Ne 9:35 Wo unto the murderer who deliberately killeth, for he shall die. Alma 42:18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man. 19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder? 20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin. Yea so what. Do you stone sabbath day breakers?
The Nehor Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 On 2/18/2016 at 6:29 PM, Thinking said: Mistakes can't be fixed. The executioner (who represents the people) is performing the same act for which the convicted killer is being punished. Killing the the killer doesn't bring back the victim. I think it is impossible to forgive somebody you just killed. I don't expect everybody to agree with me, but I would like to read your thoughts. I would also like to know what your real opinion is, not just what a bunch of cherry-picked verses say. The "mistakes can't be fixed" rationale never resonated with me. Releasing someone after 30 years in prison cannot undo taking away a huge chunk of someone's life either. I do not think acts independent of circumstances mean the same thing so the executioner is not a murderer. Putting someone in prison does not bring the victim back either so does that hold in all respects? I think you can forgive someone you kill. I have no moral objection to the death penalty if handled intelligently and with care. I think the United States has proven that it cannot deal with the death penalty under those provisos so it should be rescinded until we can. This is what I am talking about: If you have people cheering over high death penalty rates then the people of America clearly do not approach the issue with the sense of gravitas it deserves. Add in the huge racial disparity and other factors and yeah, we are too screwed up to figure out when we should and should not be killing people. 2
The Nehor Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) First double post here ever.....oh the shame Edited February 22, 2016 by The Nehor
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: If you have people cheering over high death penalty rates then the people of America clearly do not approach the issue with the sense of gravitas it deserves. Add in the huge racial disparity and other factors and yeah, we are too screwed up to figure out when we should and should not be killing people. I predict that polls show that Utah is highly for death penalty. Now I am going look for the polls.
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: If you have people cheering over high death penalty rates then the people of America clearly do not approach the issue with the sense of gravitas it deserves. Add in the huge racial disparity and other factors and yeah, we are too screwed up to figure out when we should and should not be killing people. So predictable! http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700039365/79-percent-of-Utahns-support-death-penalty-poll-finds.html?pg=all
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: The "mistakes can't be fixed" rationale never resonated with me. Releasing someone after 30 years in prison cannot undo taking away a huge chunk of someone's life either. True, but at least the government pays them millions of dollars. In most cases it is science the proves them innocent, so we need to keep advancing our science to prevent getting innocent people to jail. I also think our country sends too many people to jail, it needs to stop. Ending poverty in our country will reduce crime, not tougher laws. Dangerous violent criminals don´t give a rats about the law. Edited February 22, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Gillebre Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 I believe that there are certain things which make one's life test forfeit. Crimes so grievous that the Teacher rather see it end immediately than allow it to continue. Crimes like murder. There is the issue of being certain of one's guilt, and using all our means to certify the truth, but there is also the issue of years of back and forth before execution comes. When it has been proven, the truth certified, it should happen in a timely and low-cost manner. Justice exists, and the scriptures give us a pattern for these things ("woe unto the murderer who deliberately killeth, for he shall die"). Two things frustrate me particularly about this. 1) That people have mistakenly lost their lives, convicted legally yet being innocent. 2) The maddening process for carrying out a just sentence when the truth has been duly certified. I believe that one who murders deliberately deserves, justly, to have his mortal probation ended. It's fair in my mind. That doesn't mean we mistreat them, for we do have standards of our own belief about having compassion, but justice must always be served as we try to balance it with mercy. For the unrepentant, deliberate murderer he should receive as much mercy in this world as he gave his victim: none.
thesometimesaint Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 2 hours ago, Gillebre said: II believe that one who murders deliberately deserves, justly, to have his mortal probation ended. It's fair in my mind. That doesn't mean we mistreat them, for we do have standards of our own belief about having compassion, but justice must always be served as we try to balance it with mercy. For the unrepentant, deliberate murderer he should receive as much mercy in this world as he gave his victim: none. How does that make us any different than the murderer?
Rivers Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 I am for the death penalty in theory. Some people forfeit their right to live. James Holmes Nathan Sloope Brian David Mitchell Just to name a few.
Gillebre Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 The murderer took an innocent life. Capital punishment is meant to take the life of the certifiably guilty. The difference is that the life of the murderer is in no way innocent. Through his actions he has forfeit his own claim to life by deliberately taking it from another.
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Rivers said: I am for the death penalty in theory. Some people forfeit their right to live. but how is sending them to the spirit world a punishment? don't you believe Jesus will preach the gospel to them? Life in prison is a tougher punishment. In my opinion violent murderers deserve more than the painless lethal injection! their victims suffered more than them. Edited February 22, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
thesometimesaint Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 4 minutes ago, Rivers said: I am for the death penalty in theory. Some people forfeit their right to live. James Holmes Nathan Sloope Brian David Mitchell Just to name a few. “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.” J.R.R. Tolkien
Russell C McGregor Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 On 18/02/2016 at 2:03 PM, TheSkepticChristian said: I think a life sentence is worst than capital punishment. Murderers don't deserve a better death than those that die from Cancer, criminals that are executed don't suffer a painful death. It doesn't matter if violent criminals fight each other, what I am concerned about is nonviolent criminals. The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world, we need to end that! We need Sanders! Will you PLEASE stop your idiotic political campaigning? 3
The Nehor Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 9 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I predict that polls show that Utah is highly for death penalty. Now I am going look for the polls. Probably, hence why Utah will burn first.
The Nehor Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 9 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: True, but at least the government pays them millions of dollars. In most cases it is science the proves them innocent, so we need to keep advancing our science to prevent getting innocent people to jail. I also think our country sends too many people to jail, it needs to stop. Ending poverty in our country will reduce crime, not tougher laws. Dangerous violent criminals don´t give a rats about the law. If I am put in prison at 21 and released at 51 with a ton of money I consider that a bad trade. I think the big problem in the US is the privatization of prisons. We have created business interests with a financial incentive to lock up as many people as possible for as long as possible. Amazingly shortly after that we were deluged with dangers of drugs campaigns, tough on crime initiatives, and mandatory minimum sentencing laws proliferated like mad. Follow the money. When you have a greater percentage of your population imprisoned then Stalin or Hitler most nations would reevaluate but not us. The idea that tougher punishments deter criminals is a myth. In rare cases it has influence but most criminals plan on not getting caught. Punishments need to be based on what the crime deserves and not how much we can scare the criminals and definitely not based on the fear of suburbanites worried their kid might smoke pot. The fear based garbage peddled when I was a kid nauseates me now. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 Just now, The Nehor said: If I am put in prison at 21 and released at 51 with a ton of money I consider that a bad trade. True, but at least some ex-prisoners get to see their families again. With a ton of money he can get a beautiful 30 to 40 year old! Nothing of that happens if prisoners are executed! 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I think the big problem in the US is the privatization of prisons. Yes Yes Yes
Vance Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 On 2/22/2016 at 8:28 PM, Teancum said: Yea so what. Do you stone sabbath day breakers? Didn't say anything about Sabbath day breakers.
saemo Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 On February 18, 2016 at 7:56 PM, strappinglad said: I will add one thought. I think the convicted murderer should get a choice of life in prison or death. I also think that if death is chosen it should be self administered. I can think of several machines that could do the job without direct external influence. I can even agree to the choice being offered every 10 years just in case there is a change of heart. I think the victim or victim's family should decide.
Sleeper Cell Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:00 PM, The Nehor said: The "mistakes can't be fixed" rationale never resonated with me. Releasing someone after 30 years in prison cannot undo taking away a huge chunk of someone's life either. I do not think acts independent of circumstances mean the same thing so the executioner is not a murderer. Putting someone in prison does not bring the victim back either so does that hold in all respects? I think you can forgive someone you kill. I have no moral objection to the death penalty if handled intelligently and with care. I think the United States has proven that it cannot deal with the death penalty under those provisos so it should be rescinded until we can. This is what I am talking about: If you have people cheering over high death penalty rates then the people of America clearly do not approach the issue with the sense of gravitas it deserves. Add in the huge racial disparity and other factors and yeah, we are too screwed up to figure out when we should and should not be killing people. Don’t you think it is possible that the cheering was a response to the opposition to the death penalty rather than a Madame Defarge moment? Have you ever heard of a jury that has just imposed or recommended the imposition of a death sentence giving high fives to each other as they left the courtroom? Even a jury of Republicans?
thesometimesaint Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 3 hours ago, saemo said: I think the victim or victim's family should decide. The quicker to become a nation of men and not law.
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