Capital Punishment

[Freedom]

Capital punishment does not work as a deterrent and it is more expensive then just keeping  person in prison. Yes, both the Book of Mormon and the Bible refer to capital punishment but I don't think anybody here would agree that someone who apostatizes from the church and who actively fights against the church should be put to death. This is the standard in the Book of Mormon. Consequently, I do not believe we can justify capital punishment through the scriptures. For practical reasons, I disagree with capital punishment. We should be striving to help these people, to turn their hearts towards righteousness, not putting them to death. Many people who commit heinous crimes are mentally ill and not evil. They need physiologic help. Mental illness ws not understood in biblical times. I suspect that many references in the bible to possession by evil spirits were actually people will mental illnesses. 

[Coreyb]

Capital punishment does not work as a deterrent and it is more expensive then just keeping  person in prison. Yes, both the Book of Mormon and the Bible refer to capital punishment but I don't think anybody here would agree that someone who apostatizes from the church and who actively fights against the church should be put to death. This is the standard in the Book of Mormon. Consequently, I do not believe we can justify capital punishment through the scriptures. For practical reasons, I disagree with capital punishment. We should be striving to help these people, to turn their hearts towards righteousness, not putting them to death. Many people who commit heinous crimes are mentally ill and not evil. They need physiologic help. Mental illness ws not understood in biblical times. I suspect that many references in the bible to possession by evil spirits were actually people will mental illnesses. 

CFR that capital punishment is more expensive

[Freedom]

CFR that capital punishment is more expensive

There are numerous. The University of Maryland found the following:

Cost of conviction without seeking the death penalty: $1,103,000

Cost of conviction seeking not not getting death penalty: $1,793,000

Cost of conviction seeking and getting death penalty: $3,017,000. 

[bluebell]

There are numerous. The University of Maryland found the following:

Cost of conviction without seeking the death penalty: $1,103,000

Cost of conviction seeking not not getting death penalty: $1,793,000

Cost of conviction seeking and getting death penalty: $3,017,000.

Do these figures include room and board and health benefits for each different type of prisoner as well?

[VideoGameJunkie]

I only support capital punishment if it is humane. The electric chair was evil. Lethal Injection is the most humane way we have, but even that chokes the person for a long time. I wish there were more peaceful ways to put people to death, such as the assisted suicide pills that girl took.

[JLHPROF]

I only support capital punishment if it is humane. The electric chair was evil. Lethal Injection is the most humane way we have, but even that chokes the person for a long time. I wish there were more peaceful ways to put people to death, such as the assisted suicide pills that girl took.

 

Gospel teaching requires shedding of blood, from the earliest sin offering to the atonement - lethal injection doesn't qualify.

[Freedom]

Do these figures include room and board and health benefits for each different type of prisoner as well?

The cost is greater for someone on death row because of greater supervision. Significantly higher. And they linger there for years. But most of the costs is in the costs of the trial and in the appeals. I have read a few studies. The average cost if a murder trial when the death penalty is not sought is $160,000. When it is sought and achieved, the cost is $770,000. More lawyers are involved, time in court is longer, it just skyrockets. 

 

These people are messed up. May of them are poor and ignorant. They need an education. In the American prison system, they lack counseling and training. Too many of them and not enough room. 

 

I don't know the answer. People need to face consequences, but mercy must be employed before vengeance. 

[Freedom]

Reasoning

 

D&C 19

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

 

because..

 

Romans 6

²³ For the wages of sin is death

 

O

 

If we sin we have to die/stay dead.  Only the atonement of death either by Christ or our own can pay the price of sin.

Scripturally all sins have to be paid for by blood.  The blood of the savior pays for the repentant.  The unrepentant are another story.

Ok,  so we should not be put to death for just murder, but according to your interpretation of the scripture, capital punishment applies to any sort of sin. J-walking, skipping school, cheating on your taxes, lying to your boss to get out of work, thinking adulterous thoughts. The death the scriptures are referring to is a spiritual death. 

[ERayR]

Can anybody show any scriptural or prophetic teaching which justifies capital punishment?  I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I just haven't heard of it.

 

God certainly seemed to think Laban deserved capital punishment.  "It is better that one man should perish than a nation dwindle and perish in unbelief."  There are several in the Book of Mormon.

[The Nehor]

While I have no objection to capital punishment performed fairly and in extreme cases I think the United States (on both the state and federal level) has proven they cannot be trusted with this power. The power is applied with obvious racial bias, without due care from all parties to show that the person is guilty of the crime, and without worry.

 

I found it sickening that one of my state's governor's was cheered for the number of executions he had overseen. I can see believing that capital punishment is necessary but cheering at its use is sick and debased and is the sign of a sick society. Then again America's justice system is fed by an almost sadistic delight many people seem to show in punishing people under the guise of being "tough on crime" by imprisoning people whose crime is not worthy of imprisonment and imposing harsher sentences even when it is. This has led to the US prison population exploding.

 

We are in the business of privatizing prisons (cutting costs here often means cruelty to the incarcerated) and also meaning there is an economic incentive for interests to lock up more people. That is definitely not healthy. We are already seeing the beginning. I know of two cases where judges were sentencing youths to institutions and getting kickbacks from them. God help us if they get their way.

 

Finally we have the highest per capita imprisonment rate in the world. We are ahead of Russia, China, and other nations we consider repressive. The only nation that might be ahead of us is North Korea for which we have no good data but even that is questionable. We are also exploiting the prison population more and more as a source of cheap labor. There is a story of a king in Ether who did the same thing. He was not considered to be a good king by God or his prophet. If a form of slavery is to become politically acceptable this is the way it will enter the US. If companies can acquire cheap labor and the demand grows what is to keep government from being tougher on crime to increase supply.

 

Problem is nothing is done. Conservatives talk about "activist judges" but they rarely complain when someone receives a harsh prison sentence of call that activism. Politicians can easily get elected on a "tough on crime" platform because Americans have become timid and pathetic creatures, easily stirred up to excessive fear of and anger at criminals.

[Alan]

I believe that it is inconsistent with the gospel.

We should never give up on anyone.

[CV75]

Can anybody show any scriptural or prophetic teaching which justifies capital punishment?  I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I just haven't heard of it.

 

Reasoning

Some additional scriptures:

 

In Alma 46:30, 35 and 62:9-10 we have capital punishment for treason. In 3 Nephi 4:28, we have an execution for war crimes. In Alma 2:1, we have execution for murder. In Helaman 2:10 we have capital punishment for murder and secret combinations.

[CV75]

We should never give up on anyone.

I think not holding someone accountable for his crimes against human life and liberty is giving up on him as a human being, as well as giving up on the life and society he has chosen to destroy. For example, I don't think we should give up on people just because they were murdered, or give up on their families and communities just because the murdered person not longer "exists" or matters.

[giotto]

Captain Moroni says "Yes!" (Alma 51:15)

[Alan]

CV75,

But it is often the case that men are executed for something they did when they were boys.

[rodheadlee]

I believe that it is inconsistent with the gospel.

We should never give up on anyone.

Yes, who knows but they should repent.  But It's a tough thing to think about. A guy carjacks a mom and daughter. After locking them in the trunk he starts the car on fire and burns them to death to hide evidence. Should this guy be walking around?

[thesometimesaint]

I myself don't see it as an issue of vengeance, but more an issue of consequences.

We know that under specific conditions killing another person is permitted, such as war. It doesn't matter which side in a conflict is morally right, the soldiers from either side are justified in protecting their life and the lives of others. If you are a genuine threat to otherd then they are justified in killing you. That is the consequence of being a soldier.

I think that the same idea can apply to Capitol punishment. If someone actively preys on society to the extent that they are a danger, then the consequence of their choice is for them to lose their life.

I don't believe Capitol punishment is always justified though.

 

Bluebell:

 

It is not about consequences, a person is dead. Nothing we can do will bring that person back. The punishment we inflict is something we can do something about. Now we may see that punishment as justified or not, but It is totally in our control.

 

In the US we have several states that have abolished the death penalty, and there hasn't been a rise in murder rates there. In fact the murder rates are lower there than in states with the death penalty. Putting them behind locked doors until they are no longer a threat to general society seems to me a more humane and effective means of punishment. IE; Rudolph Hess died in Spandau prison.

 

War is just organized mass murder sometimes justified most time not.

[emarkp]

I believe it is inconsistent with the Gospel, and a reflection of our fallen nature to want vengeance.

Nonsense. I see no conflict in saying to a murderer "I forgive you" while shooting him in the head. It's not about vengeance at all. It's about protecting humanity from those who prey on others.

[bluebell]

Bluebell:

It is not about consequences, a person is dead. Nothing we can do will bring that person back. The punishment we inflict is something we can do something about. Now we may see that punishment as justified or not, but It is totally in our control.

In the US we have several states that have abolished the death penalty, and there hasn't been a rise in murder rates there. In fact the murder rates are lower there than in states with the death penalty. Putting them behind locked doors until they are no longer a threat to general society seems to me a more humane and effective means of punishment. IE; Rudolph Hess died in Spandau prison.

War is just organized mass murder sometimes justified most time not.

I think you've confused restitution with consequences.

A person does not have to provide restitution in order to suffer the consequences of their choices.

Neither does someone suffering the consequences of their choices have to do with preventing bad choices made by others.

[bcuzbcuz]

I only support capital punishment if it is humane. The electric chair was evil. Lethal Injection is the most humane way we have, but even that chokes the person for a long time. I wish there were more peaceful ways to put people to death, such as the assisted suicide pills that girl took.

Actually, putting the sentenced person in an oxygen starved atmosphere is by far the most humane. It's very similar to the blackout pilots, without pressurized suits, experience when either in rarified air or during 5+ G force.

If oxygen is exchanged with carbon dioxide a person sleeps their way into death.

But is probably not used for that very reason. Those who cry out for vengence want the convicted to suffer.

[JLHPROF]

Ok,  so we should not be put to death for just murder, but according to your interpretation of the scripture, capital punishment applies to any sort of sin. J-walking, skipping school, cheating on your taxes, lying to your boss to get out of work, thinking adulterous thoughts. The death the scriptures are referring to is a spiritual death. 

 

Of course they are not referring to the spiritual death.  The scriptures are quite clear.  The very purpose of the atonement was to allow the resurrection from the dead.  Without the sins being paid for we would have to remain dead.

When the scripture says the wages of sin is death it means it quite literally - with sin on our heads we cannot be resurrected.  That is why Christ literally purchased our resurrection by paying for our sins.

 

Now as for capital punishment, any sin that does not fall under the atonement (and yes, there are some that don't - murder of innocent blood for instance) should either pay with their own blood/life or remain unsaved from death/in the grave as perdition.

[JLHPROF]

I believe that it is inconsistent with the gospel.

We should never give up on anyone.

 

Allowing someone to pay for a sin with their blood is hardly giving up on them.  It is doing everything possible to ensure their salvation.

It is VERY consistent with both scripture and prophetic teaching.

[thesometimesaint]

Allowing someone to pay for a sin with their blood is hardly giving up on them.  It is doing everything possible to ensure their salvation.

It is VERY consistent with both scripture and prophetic teaching.

 

Hummm. When Cain slew Able he didn't get the death penalty. When the woman taken in adultery, a Capital crime to the Jews at the time, was presented to Jesus for stoning he didn't pick up that first stone.

[JLHPROF]

Hummm. When Cain slew Able he didn't get the death penalty. When the woman taken in adultery, a Capital crime to the Jews at the time, was presented to Jesus for stoning he didn't pick up that first stone.

 

1. Correct - Cain didn't get the death penalty.  He didn't allow his blood to be shed to pay for the unpardonable sin he committed.  That is why he is perdition (lost/unsaved), and why Judas MIGHT receive a telestial glory in last resurrection - he shed his blood.

 

2. Adultery can be repented of (the first time) and so would fall under the atonement.  Adultery unrepented of or committed again would fall outside the atonement and require the shedding of blood.  D&C 42:25-26.

 

 

This is a very simple principle of the gospel.  Our compassion just impedes our understanding at times.

The atonement covers almost every sin.  That is why we are not required to suffer as Christ did.  If the sin falls outside of the atonement as explained in scripture then we either pay with our own blood or become perdition.  All scriptural and taught by prophets.

Edited November 21, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Sleeper Cell]

I believe it is inconsistent with the Gospel, and a reflection of our fallen nature to want vengeance 

 

Capital punishment, I believe, is wrong. Capital punishment calls forth all the worst of human culture, it is degrading to our society. It is reacting at the lowest, basist, animal instinct level of humanity. 

Tell that to the grieving family of a murder victim.

 

It is one thing to be opposed to capital punishment; quite another to cast aspersions on the motives and morals of those who disagree with you -- including many of the families of murder victims   If I wanted “vengeance,” I would want the murderer to suffer at least as much as the victim. And probably a lot more.  Yet, the proponents of capital punishment generally advocate using the quickest, least painful methods of execution.  IIRC, even the use of the electric chair was originally advocated as a quicker, more humane alternative to hanging.  

 

Most advocates of capital punishment are not seeking vengeance.  They are seeking justice.  And they believe it is not just that a murderer should continue to live, while his victim is dead. One can disagree with capital punishment without casting aspersions on the morality of your opponents.