TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Freedom said: In my opinion, it is too expensive. It is significantly more expensive to put someone to death than to just keep them in prison. Further, there is no evidence that capital punishment reduces crime. It does not work. Good points! and there are many violent cartel members that don't seem to be afraid of death when they get in a gun fight. 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Putting a rapist in prison doesn't return the victim to status quo ante, either. A life sentence is worst than capital punishment. Many children with Cancer have a painful death, many soldiers that die in battle have a horrible death, but no prisoner suffers during execution. Capital punishment makes no sense at all! Life sentence is a tougher punishment! 1 hour ago, smac97 said: True. This and the flaws exposed by the Innocence Project are the two fundamental concerns for me regarding capital punishment. there are too many concerns, capital punishment needs to end! We are also the country with the highest incarceration rate! that needs to end too! Edited February 18, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 30 minutes ago, mrmarklin said: I don't want to breathe the same air as murderers. Fry 'em all. how is that not against Christianity?
thesometimesaint Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 I can argue it either way, but generally speaking I'm against it. Without invoking a Godwin's Rule violation there are certain actions that the death penalty is appropriate. Genocide being one.
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 20 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I can argue it either way, but generally speaking I'm against it. Without invoking a Godwin's Rule violation there are certain actions that the death penalty is appropriate. Genocide being one. Why? he deserves the most severe punishment which is life in prison! How is capital punishment a punishment at all? they don't suffer! They don't deserve a better death than a child that dies of Cancer, or a solder that dies in battle!
provoman Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 The execution of Cameron Todd Willingham (accused of murder by arson) convinced that the death penalty should be abolished. "In 2005, Texas established a government commission to investigate allegations of error and misconduct by forensic scientists. The first cases that are being reviewed by the commission are those of Willingham and Willis. In mid-August, the noted fire scientist Craig Beyler, who was hired by the commission, completed his investigation. In a scathing report, he concluded that investigators in the Willingham case had no scientific basis for claiming that the fire was arson, ignored evidence that contradicted their theory, had no comprehension of flashover and fire dynamics, relied on discredited folklore, and failed to eliminate potential accidental or alternative causes of the fire. He said that Vasquez’s approach seemed to deny “rational reasoning” and was more “characteristic of mystics or psychics.” What’s more, Beyler determined that the investigation violated, as he put it to me, “not only the standards of today but even of the time period.” The commission is reviewing his findings, and plans to release its own report next year." Rick Perry "fired" the commission and appointed a new one.
thesometimesaint Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 44 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Why? he deserves the most severe punishment which is life in prison! How is capital punishment a punishment at all? they don't suffer! They don't deserve a better death than a child that dies of Cancer, or a solder that dies in battle! If wrongly convicted and sentenced to LWOP we can apologize, and pay the person monetary damages. With death such is impossible. Killing someone is serious business, and there is always pain involved. Just ask Oklahoma with their 40+ minutes botched execution drugs. Who said anyone should die from cancer? At least in the US we have an all volunteer armed force. While few want to die. We sign up for the possibility when we join the military.
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Who said anyone should die from cancer? I did not say that, please try to understand what I am saying. I am saying that life in prison is more severe than capital punishment. Edited February 18, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
thesometimesaint Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 10 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I did not say that, please try to understand what I am saying. I am saying that life in prison is more severe than capital punishment. According to you. Prison isn't nice, but dead is worse.
Bernard Gui Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Yes for certain heinous crimes. Other convicts should work for their upkeep. 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 3 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: there are too many concerns, capital punishment needs to end! We are also the country with the highest incarceration rate! that needs to end too! If this is true, then criminals need to stop committing crimes. That's the best way to lower the numbers. 2
CV75 Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 11 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: especially private prisons! Capital punishment benefits private prison owners! More new prisoners, the better for them! I look at how a society defines a murderer and how it defines a protector (versus a vigilante). Prisons and executioners may be tools of protectors, but are not the protectors themselves, who have the greater good at heart. And prison personnel and executioners are certainly paid for their work, whether public or private. The amount of such business conducted is not a measure of a society's well being unless accompanied by a matching reduction in murder and increase in personal freedom.
Anijen Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) I would echo the words of smac97. I did believe in capital punishment in my younger days, I no longer do. I still would if I could be 100% sure that person was guilty of a depraved heart crime. The innocence project in which smac97 gave a link to has opened up my eyes. I also know the natural man can be prone to corruption and bias (I am speaking of those who hold judicial positions, from the cop to lawyer to judge). I have studied some of the racial bias of the past and of the wrongly convicted. I have studied corruption in some jurisdictions (Chicago has had a notorious history of this). Too many times has an innocent person been put to death. Too many times has a guilty person been sentenced to death when their crime didn't deserve that sentence, and lastly too many times has a person been sentenced to death due to a racist judge, while the same crime (or worse) will be given a lesser sentence because they where white or rich. I believe in capital punishment if I could be 100% positive the criminals guilt was proven and if the crime was deserving. Quote Depraved-heart murder is the form of murder that establishes that the willful doing of a dangerous and reckless act with wanton indifference to the consequences and perils involved, is just as blameworthy, and just as worthy of punishment, when the harmful result ensues, as is the express intent to kill itself. This highly blameworthy state of mind is not one of mere negligence. ... It is not merely one even of gross criminal negligence. ... It involves rather the deliberate perpetration of a knowingly dangerous act with reckless and wanton unconcern and indifference as to whether anyone is harmed or not. The common law treats such a state of mind as just as blameworthy, just as anti-social and, therefore, just as truly murderous as the specific intents to kill and to harm. — Judge Moylan, Debettencourt v. Stat Edited February 18, 2016 by Anijen 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: If this is true, then criminals need to stop committing crimes. That's the best way to lower the numbers. or perhaps law enforcement needs to stop arresting them for stupid reasons. 1. A group of middle school teachers was condemned for 20 years in prison for changing scores on a test, that is just ridiculous. At most they should just have been fired and fined. They were tough to a group of teachers, but many police officers don't dare to be tough on extremely dangerous gang places in Chicago or Los Angeles Edited February 18, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: According to you. Prison isn't nice, but dead is worse. I disagree, dead isn't nice, but life in prison is worse. All of us are going to die, many suffer a painful death, but not the people that are executed in the USA. The lethal injection simply puts you to sleep. Edited February 18, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Sleeper Cell Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 7 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I did not say that, please try to understand what I am saying. I am saying that life in prison is more severe than capital punishment. Which explains why convicted murderers almost never appeal their death sentences.
strappinglad Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 From a secular perspective death by execution is relatively painless except for the mental side of it. From a theological perspective the situation of a murderer after death is said to be quite nasty. Are we doing the murderer a great service by allowing him/her to live ? I suppose we are just delaying the inevitable . There is something to be said for giving the family of victims absolute closure . However, rare is the case where the People can be 100% sure they have the right perp.
Sleeper Cell Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Anijen said: I would echo the words of smac97. I did believe in capital punishment in my younger days, I no longer do. I still would if I could be 100% sure that person was guilty of a depraved heart crime. The innocence project in which smac97 gave a link to has opened up my eyes. I also know the natural man can be prone to corruption and bias (I am speaking of those who hold judicial positions, from the cop to lawyer to judge). I have studied some of the racial bias of the past and of the wrongly convicted. I have studied corruption in some jurisdictions (Chicago has had a notorious history of this). Too many times has an innocent person been put to death. Too many times has a guilty person been sentenced to death when their crime didn't deserve that sentence, and lastly too many times has a person been sentenced to death due to a racist judge, while the same crime (or worse) will be given a lesser sentence because they where white or rich. I believe in capital punishment if I could be 100% positive the criminals guilt was proven and if the crime was deserving. Unfortunately, the “Innocence Project” apparently does not compile statistics on the number of wrongfully convicted people who are murdered in prison. Why shouldn’t the “we cannot be 100% sure” argument also apply to them?
thesometimesaint Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 34 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I disagree, dead isn't nice, but life in prison is worse. All of us are going to die, many suffer a painful death, but not the people that are executed in the USA. The lethal injection simply puts you to sleep. Ask Oklahoma about their 40 minute torture death of a prisoner.
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 1 minute ago, thesometimesaint said: Ask Oklahoma about their 40 minute torture death of a prisoner. Gladly most of our country is not like Red Evangelical Oklahoma.
thesometimesaint Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, strappinglad said: From a secular perspective death by execution is relatively painless except for the mental side of it. From a theological perspective the situation of a murderer after death is said to be quite nasty. Are we doing the murderer a great service by allowing him/her to live ? I suppose we are just delaying the inevitable . There is something to be said for giving the family of victims absolute closure . However, rare is the case where the People can be 100% sure they have the right perp. Even if we were 100% sure of guilt it still says more about us than it does about the prisoner we execute. Anders Brevik, the Norway mass murderer, got 21 years in a Norway prison., Norway doesn't have Capital Punishment, though it is unlikely he will ever get out, and their prisons are nothing like ours. Edited February 18, 2016 by thesometimesaint
busybee Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 15 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: First degree murder should qualify. Child molestation should qualify as well. If a dog bites a child it is put down. Why shouldn't a monster that abuses a child be allowed to live. And be released into the community!! I would rather see a murderer see the light of day again before a child molester. But that's just me.
Anijen Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, Sleeper Cell said: Unfortunately, the “Innocence Project” apparently does not compile statistics on the number of wrongfully convicted people who are murdered in prison. Why shouldn’t the “we cannot be 100% sure” argument also apply to them? Sorry, I do not understand your response; "murdered in prison." If they were killed by execution (death penalty) I would not label that as "murder." smac97 gave a very good response comparing murder and killing. I am against the death penalty because of wrongful conviction and also because sometimes the criminal might be guilty, but does not deserve the death penalty. Can you be more clear when you state; Quote Why shouldn’t the "we cannot be 100% sure” argument also apply to them? I might be just tired, but in my post I wrote; "I believe in capital punishment if I could be 100% positive the criminals guilt was proven and if the crime was deserving." so I do not understand your question which I posted above. Other thoughts: there are statistics to be found through research where DNA has proven innocence. There are statistics that show of all the pre-1978 death penalties given, IIRC, about 450 were black and 32 were white. these are disturbing to me.
Walden Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 I am firmly against the death penalty. I do not think that the death penalty is more effective in keeping society safe from a murderer than life in prison, and thus, in my opinion, is simply a tool for revenge. I don't think that the government should be in the revenge business.
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 2 minutes ago, busybee said: Child molestation should qualify as well. If a dog bites a child it is put down. Why should a monster that abuses a child be allowed to live. Life in Prison is a tougher punishment, it is also a punishment that can be repaired if the prisoner turns out to be innocent. 5 minutes ago, busybee said: I would rather see a murderer see the light of day again before a child molester. But that's just me. bytheway, what does Christianity teach?
strappinglad Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 "It is better that they have a stone tied around their neck and drowned in the sea." Of course that is just a permissive liberal speaking, right? 2
Recommended Posts