Apparently Apostates do go to Outer Darkness by this Plan of salvation chart

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

This is false.

Don't trust anything from IRR.  They are an unashamed and rabid anti-Mormon outfit and their doctrinal understanding is garbage.

Apostates aren't going to have a good time -- for a while at least -- but they will not be in OD.

How about us Mormons?  Are we headed straight for Hell?  According to IRR?

[rodheadlee]

26 minutes ago, smac97 said:

From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism (a persuasive, but not mandatory, authority) (emphasis added):

Thanks,

-Smac

I don't really see what that has to do with this discussion. We are discussing what constitutes apostasy. I love all people all the time no matter what or who they are or whatever their sexual proclivities are, some are harder to love that others but it hardly has to do with apostasy. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Yes I believe in an Outer Darkness, but I think it's reserved for people like Judas and Cain.

And the guy who cut me off in traffic this morning.

[smac97]

36 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I don't really see what that has to do with this discussion. We are discussing what constitutes apostasy.

The OP suggested that "the path apostasy takes you ... leads right to Outer Darkness."  I countered that with a source indicating that "LDS scriptures establish a loving and hopeful attitude toward apostates."

Outer Darkness is hell.  It is utterly devoid of glory, of God's grace.  It is reserved for the worst of the worst.  Only the Sons of Perdition will go there:

Quote

The spiritual condition of those in this realm is described metaphorically as a lake of unquenchable fire and brimstone and as "a worm [that] dieth not" (Jacob 6:10; D&C 76:44). They will be "vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God" (D&C 76:33). God's wrath will originate within them when they contrast his holiness and majesty with their own filthiness and ignominy (2 Ne. 9:14; Alma 12:14-17; Morm. 9:4-5; TPJS, p. 361). The Prophet Joseph Smith explained, "A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner…. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone" (TPJS, p. 357). Fire and brimstone characterize the person, not the place.

The awful realization that they are truly damned, have lost all favor with God, have rejected all that he represents, and have lost the opportunity for repentance will be compounded by their subjection to Lucifer and Cain, who are consumed with like misery and frustration (2 Ne. 2:27; Moses 1:22). Such is the ultimate "damnation of hell" (TPJS, p. 198; see Damnation).

Perdition is the second death: total banishment not only from God's literal presence but also from the influence of his Spirit (2 Ne. 9:15-16; Hel. 14:18; D&C 88:32). Those who sin against the Holy Ghost commit the unpardonable sin and will suffer the fulness of the second death (Alma 39:6; Hel. 14:16-19). All others will be saved eventually in one of the degrees of glory (D&C 76:40-43; JD 8:154).

So who are these Sons of Perdition?  Does apostasy necessarily mean one is a Son of Perdition?  I don't think so (from the same link as above):

Quote

Sons of perdition are not merely wicked; they are incorrigibly evil. In sinning against the revelations of the Holy Ghost, they have sinned against the greater light and knowledge of God. They willfully and utterly pervert principles of righteousness and truth with which they were once endowed, and transform them into principles of evil and deception. Joseph Smith declared, "You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance" (TPJS, p. 358). No divine principle can cleanse the sons of perdition; following the last judgment, they will remain "filthy still" (D&C 29:44;88:35). It is revealed that "it had been better for them never to have been born" (D&C 76:32).

Those who become sons of perdition while in mortality will be resurrected with unglorified physical bodies and "rise to the damnation of their own filthiness" (TPJS, p. 361). Cain, thus resurrected, will then rule over the unembodied Lucifer (Moses 5:23; MD, p. 109).

...

Few individuals have been identified as sons of perdition. Although Judas is often so regarded, there is a question whether he had received the Holy Ghost sufficiently to sin against it at the time of his betrayal of Christ (John 17:12; Smith, pp. 433-34).

As I see it, LDS doctrine posits that it is really quite difficult to become a Son of Perdition:

Quote

According to LDS Church theology, there are two classes of persons who will become sons of perdition:

1. The pre-mortal spirit followers of Satan. It is taught that, in the pre-mortal life, they chose to follow a plan proposed by Satan, rather than that presented by God the Father and Jesus. Thus ensued the War in Heaven, which resulted in Satan and his followers being cast out of heaven and denied the opportunity of receiving a physical body.
2. Those in mortal life who "deny the Holy Ghost," which is generally interpreted as rejecting and denying Christ after receiving a personal witness and a "perfect knowledge" of Jesus and that mere faith or belief in him is not enough. Joseph Smith, Jr. taught:

Quote

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it.

In the Doctrine and Covenants, sons of perdition are described as inhabiting "a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory." The most comprehensive exposition of the phrase is found in Section 76 in the Doctrine and Covenants.

How many apostates meet the parameters set forth above.  Very few, I think.  I think many of the people who have committed apostasy (most?  nearly all?) have not done so from a position of strength and ascendant spiritual maturity (as described in the JS quote above), and have instead ran into trouble arising from pride, ignorance, confusion, and so on.  Frankly, many apostates strike me as very spiritually immature (I won't name names).  And in that lack maturity these people will be shown leniency and mercy.  Only those who "receive the Holy Ghost" and "have the heavens opened unto him" and "know God" and then "sin against him" by "deny[ing] Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him" are potentially imperiled.

I'm not particularly interested in trying to sort out who will be a Son of Perdition and who will not.  My heart is quieted by knowing that God is just.  

Quote

I love all people all the time no matter what or who they are or whatever their sexual proclivities are, some are harder to love that others but it hardly has to do with apostasy. 

"Sexual proclivities?"  I said nothing about that.

Thanks,

-Smac

[thesometimesaint]

3 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Well Video Game...If there is an outer darkness, if there is any point to it, somebody has to be IN outer darkness. Why not those who have no excuse? You ask a lot of questions that seem to question traditional LDS thought. Do you have any opinions of your own on this? Do you even agree with the idea  of outer darkness? Who would you place in outer darkness that better qualifies than apostates, assuming you believe in outer darkness?

Simple apostasy doesn't in and of itself doesn't destine one for O.D. It is the willful refusal to accept Christ after a sure knowledge of Jesus the Christ that does.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I don't see a lot of apostates believing while they deny they believe though which is what I think "He has got to say that the sun doesn't shine while he sees it" means.

Nor do I see most apostates lusting for the blood of the prophets.

I gather you don't read the comments sections in the Salt Lake Tribune.

[Alan]

6 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Is this a better chart then? It doesn't include the 3 different degrees in the Celestial Kingdom though.

I must say, the telestial kingdom looks the prettiest.

[6EQUJ5]

9 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

How are you going to exercise your Priesthood if you leave the Church? If you altogether turn away from the Priesthood and break your oath with the Father that is the definition of apostasy. You all seem to think that you need a visitation from Christ to deny the Holy Ghost. I don't think that's true you would then be denying Christ. If you deny the witnesses that the Holy Ghost gives you as you receive your ordinances as you enter and grow in the Church that is denying the Holy Ghost. That's why you have to be in the Outer Darkness because you won't even accept the Holy Ghost as teacher, as a bringer of God's truth. Why should you receive a visit from Christ if you won't accept the Holy Ghost?

Ok.  But if we go with what you are proposing then the following people will receive the worst imaginable punishment God has laid out:

Emma Smith

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

Sidney Rigdon

etc...

I don't think a loving God would condemn these good -- but mistaken -- people simply for holding or acting on innacurate belief.

[6EQUJ5]

9 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

How are you going to exercise your Priesthood if you leave the Church? If you altogether turn away from the Priesthood and break your oath with the Father that is the definition of apostasy. You all seem to think that you need a visitation from Christ to deny the Holy Ghost. I don't think that's true you would then be denying Christ. If you deny the witnesses that the Holy Ghost gives you as you receive your ordinances as you enter and grow in the Church that is denying the Holy Ghost. That's why you have to be in the Outer Darkness because you won't even accept the Holy Ghost as teacher, as a bringer of God's truth. Why should you receive a visit from Christ if you won't accept the Holy Ghost?

Ok.  But if we go with what you are proposing then the following people will receive the worst imaginable punishment God has laid out:

Emma Smith

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

Sidney Rigdon

etc...

I don't think a loving God would condemn these good -- but mistaken -- people simply for holding or acting on innacurate belief.

[6EQUJ5]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

How about us Mormons?  Are we headed straight for Hell?  According to IRR?

I don't understand this comment at all.

[JAHS]

This one is pretty close to being more accurate and more comprehensive.

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, JAHS said:

This one is pretty close to being more accurate and more comprehensive.

Wow, I thought the Gospel Jesus Christ presented was simple.  This certainly is not.

[FormerLDS]

13 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I came across this picture on a website and look where the path apostasy takes you from the straight and narrow way. It leads right to Outer Darkness. Thoughts?

Well I am an LDS apostate, and I have absolutely no fear whatsoever of this chart.  The LDS concept is so vastly out of whack with what Jesus Christ plainly said.   

I do feel sorry for those who are chained to the treadmill of worthy behavior for "eternal life".  

[Johnnie Cake]

I always get a kick out of seeing people claim they have any idea what happens after death...as far as any of us know...we die, are bodies decay and that's about as far as anyone of us can honestly project.  Anything beyond that is just conjecture

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Wow, I thought the Gospel Jesus Christ presented was simple.  This certainly is not.

This is not the gospel, it's existence in the eternities.
The gospel is very simple.  The eternities are incredibly complex.

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I always get a kick out of seeing people claim they have any idea what happens after death...as far as any of us know...we die, are bodies decay and that's about as far as anyone of us can honestly project.  Anything beyond that is just conjecture

Nah...too many people who are dead have come back (and I'm not talking NDE's).
Unless we believe everyone is lying, including Christ and Joseph Smith.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

This one is pretty close to being more accurate and more comprehensive.

Really like this one.  Very clear and not really anything I could take exception with.

And despite what our "traditional" friends say, all scriptural.

[thesometimesaint]

11 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I always get a kick out of seeing people claim they have any idea what happens after death...as far as any of us know...we die, are bodies decay and that's about as far as anyone of us can honestly project.  Anything beyond that is just conjecture

True, but irrelevant. If our LDS friends are correct I'm good to go. If our Christian and non-Christian friends are correct, I believe in a merciful God. I'm still good to go. If our atheist friends are correct none of us will know any differently anyway.

[rpn]

Wherever this depiction comes from, it is possible that some apostates have the requisite information and intention in order to qualify for outer darkness.   We don't know whether a temple president or a stake president who had received second anointing would qualify or not.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Wow, I thought the Gospel Jesus Christ presented was simple.  This certainly is not.

The gospel itself that we live in this life is still pretty simple. But more than half this chart represents hundreds of scriptures and prophetic teachings about what happens in the eternal future so yes there is going to be a lot in it.

[halconero]

14 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Well Video Game...If there is an outer darkness, if there is any point to it, somebody has to be IN outer darkness. Why not those who have no excuse? You ask a lot of questions that seem to question traditional LDS thought. Do you have any opinions of your own on this? Do you even agree with the idea  of outer darkness? Who would you place in outer darkness that better qualifies than apostates, assuming you believe in outer darkness?

There's apostates and then there's apostates.

It's like the person who leaves the Catholic Church versus a Catholic Saint utterly turning against God, renouncing their sainthood, and participating in the crucifixion of Jesus with full knowledge of what they do, and doing it out of malice and hatred.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I always get a kick out of seeing people claim they have any idea what happens after death...as far as any of us know...we die, are bodies decay and that's about as far as anyone of us can honestly project.  Anything beyond that is just conjecture

And even given a real "after," how are we to understand  In much detail a plane of existence that incorporates the future beings we have not yet become?

If we know anything about it now, it is set in mortal language and context, for the most part.

[cinepro]

Sorry, but this is the best one.  Old school cool:

 

[Walden]

18 hours ago, filovirus said:

I see no Spirit World, Resurrection, or Final Judgment. Looks like the Final Judgment was already decided by whomever put this chart together.

But, the Final Judgement has already been decided...God already knows every decision that you will ever make, God cannot be surprised by any decision you will ever make, and thus, God knows exactly what kingdom you will inherit before you've completed your first breath on this Earth. 

My understanding of Outer Darkness is that it is reserved for those who have a perfect knowledge of Christ (i.e. Christ {or one of his ministering angels} has actually appeared to them, or in Judas' case, they personally knew Christ and were witness to his miracles) and then go on to deny the existence of Christ.

[filovirus]

44 minutes ago, Walden said:

But, the Final Judgement has already been decided...God already knows every decision that you will ever make, God cannot be surprised by any decision you will ever make, and thus, God knows exactly what kingdom you will inherit before you've completed your first breath on this Earth. 

My understanding of Outer Darkness is that it is reserved for those who have a perfect knowledge of Christ (i.e. Christ {or one of his ministering angels} has actually appeared to them, or in Judas' case, they personally knew Christ and were witness to his miracles) and then go on to deny the existence of Christ.

God may know...but I don't. It's just as important that I have a fair judgment (for me) as it is that Christ judges me fairly (even though he may know the outcome).