Teancum Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 18 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Yeah, that's what I said in my own words. What do think "have the heavens open unto him" means? You don't think the heavens open when you get endowed or sealed in the temple or make an oath with God regarding the Priesthood??or get a healing blessing? No. not at all.
Robert F. Smith Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 15 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said: Quote Robert F. Smith said: How about us Mormons? Are we headed straight for Hell? According to IRR? I don't understand this comment at all. Well, does IRR have a chart showing where Mormons go? Can't be good. 1
rodheadlee Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) 19 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: I always get a kick out of seeing people claim they have any idea what happens after death...as far as any of us know...we die, are bodies decay and that's about as far as anyone of us can honestly project. Anything beyond that is just conjecture That could be true if I hadn't already been dead once. Edited February 10, 2016 by rodheadlee
rodheadlee Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 21 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said: Ok. But if we go with what you are proposing then the following people will receive the worst imaginable punishment God has laid out: Emma Smith David Whitmer Martin Harris Sidney Rigdon etc... I don't think a loving God would condemn these good -- but mistaken -- people simply for holding or acting on innacurate belief. I'm not interested in condemning people, I'm interested in what denying the Holy Ghost means and what constitutes Apostasy.
rodheadlee Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 On 2/9/2016 at 11:14 PM, smac97 said: The OP suggested that "the path apostasy takes you ... leads right to Outer Darkness." I countered that with a source indicating that "LDS scriptures establish a loving and hopeful attitude toward apostates." Outer Darkness is hell. It is utterly devoid of glory, of God's grace. It is reserved for the worst of the worst. Only the Sons of Perdition will go there: So who are these Sons of Perdition? Does apostasy necessarily mean one is a Son of Perdition? I don't think so (from the same link as above): As I see it, LDS doctrine posits that it is really quite difficult to become a Son of Perdition: How many apostates meet the parameters set forth above. Very few, I think. I think many of the people who have committed apostasy (most? nearly all?) have not done so from a position of strength and ascendant spiritual maturity (as described in the JS quote above), and have instead ran into trouble arising from pride, ignorance, confusion, and so on. Frankly, many apostates strike me as very spiritually immature (I won't name names). And in that lack maturity these people will be shown leniency and mercy. Only those who "receive the Holy Ghost" and "have the heavens opened unto him" and "know God" and then "sin against him" by "deny[ing] Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him" are potentially imperiled. I'm not particularly interested in trying to sort out who will be a Son of Perdition and who will not. My heart is quieted by knowing that God is just. "Sexual proclivities?" I said nothing about that. Thanks, -Smac I'm not interested in sorting the "who" either, I'm interested in the "what". I just wanted to know what "Denying the Holy Ghost" means and everyone is ignoring the quote from D&C 84: "41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come." This to me says that anyone that lays down their priesthood and marches off to other places in life or to war against the Church, will not receive forgiveness. This to me would indicate the Outer Darkness. What is your interpretation of this verse in it's context of holding the Priesthood? My heart is not quieted as I have already had a trip to the Outer Darkness and I don't care to go back nor see anyone else go there.The first time I can recall reading this verse in D&C 84 was yesterday when I was doing some research on the duties of the Aaonic Priesthood holder.When I made my trip to the Outer Darkness I was not a Church member nor had the LDS Church even entered my stream of conscience, nor had the term Outer Darkness. I can assure you it's void of anything, at least as of 1972. Many people have pointed this "Only those who "receive the Holy Ghost" and "have the heavens opened unto him" and "know God" and then "sin against him" by "deny[ing] Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him" out to me and I ask you when you get your Endowment do not the Heavens Open unto you?
rodheadlee Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 13 hours ago, Teancum said: No. not at all. Your answer doesn't surprise me, it disappoints me and I wonder if this is true for all.
6EQUJ5 Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 2 hours ago, rodheadlee said: I'm not interested in condemning people, I'm interested in what denying the Holy Ghost means and what constitutes Apostasy. Well, you can't really separate the two. If you define what "denying the Holy Ghost" means then obviously some people will fall into that category. You claim apostates go to OD. Emma Smith and David Whitmer were/are apostates. Therefore, Emma Smith and David Whitmer are in OD.
JLHPROF Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 48 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said: Well, you can't really separate the two. If you define what "denying the Holy Ghost" means then obviously some people will fall into that category. You claim apostates go to OD. Emma Smith and David Whitmer were/are apostates. Therefore, Emma Smith and David Whitmer are in OD. By every revealed law of justice, yes, Emma especially who received a fullness of ordinances, would have lost Celestial glory. However, laws of mercy and family sealing are far less understood. Somehow I think Emma will be just fine, but not because of her own worthiness. According to Brigham, Joseph said he would go to hell to get Emma. But that is not Outer Darkness. A better example might be Cain. OD is reserved for perdition - the lost and unredeemable, and especially for those who REFUSE to be saved, who refuse to acknowledge and accept Christ as Lord or who commit an unpardonable sin (because any sin that cannot be removed prevents salvation). That is a very small number from this earth, although a large number from pre-mortality. It is those who have their calling and election (actually have Christ come and reveal himself and grant them exaltation) who then commit one of the unpardonable sins. For example - Cain knew God face to face, and then shed innocent blood. Judas knew Christ personally and suffered innocent blood to be shed. Emma received her second anointings and then apostatized, but did she receive her calling and election made sure, or did she commit an unpardonable sin? I doubt it. Joseph may have to bring her out of hell, but she did nothing worthy of perdition. Same with David Whitmer. I have always heard that it takes as much light to make a devil as it takes to make a god. 1
JAHS Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 On 2/9/2016 at 10:02 AM, JLHPROF said: On 2/9/2016 at 8:28 AM, JAHS said: This one is pretty close to being more accurate and more comprehensive. Really like this one. Very clear and not really anything I could take exception with. And despite what our "traditional" friends say, all scriptural. The only question I have about this one is that it shows the one third going to Spirit Prison first before going to Outer Darkness. The way I understand it is that they were sent down to earth without bodies and are here tempting mortals now. Some Church leaders have said the the spirit world somehow exists with us on this earth. If that includes the Spirit Prison part of the Spirit World, does that mean they are in Spirit Prison but allowed access to us to tempt us here on earth? I assume they go to outer darkness after the judgment.
Teancum Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 13 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Your answer doesn't surprise me, it disappoints me and I wonder if this is true for all. Nor does your position that LDS apostates go to outer darkness along with the sons of perdition. But as Smac demonstrated your interpretation is in error.
Five Solas Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 On 2/9/2016 at 1:23 PM, cinepro said: Sorry, but this is the best one. Old school cool: Agree, it's really cool. What strikes me most is how the Terrestrial includes cigarettes and coffee while alcohol (the "xxx" bottle poured into the martini glass) is reserved for the "Telestial." Most today would think cigarettes *far* worse (don't believe me?--apply for life insurance & tell your insurer you're a tobacco user). But when you look at the car pictured in "Second Estate" and note the pre-war fenders, you realize this was likely drawn during Prohibition (or very shortly thereafter). Bit of a history lesson for us, for better or worse... --Erik
Calm Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 Quote Drinking too much can harm your health. Excessive alcohol use led to approximately 88,000 deaths and 2.5 million years of potential life lost (YPLL) each year in the United States from 2006 – 2010, shortening the lives of those who died by an average of 30 years.1,2 Further, excessive drinking was responsible for 1 in 10 deaths among working-age adults aged 20-64 years. The economic costs of excessive alcohol consumption in 2010 were estimated at $249 billion, or $2.05 a drink.3... Excessive alcohol use has immediate effects that increase the risk of many harmful health conditions. These are most often the result of binge drinking and include the following: Injuries, such as motor vehicle crashes, falls, drownings, and burns.6,7 Violence, including homicide, suicide, sexual assault, and intimate partner violence.6-10 Alcohol poisoning, a medical emergency that results from high blood alcohol levels.11 Risky sexual behaviors, including unprotected sex or sex with multiple partners. These behaviors can result in unintended pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV.12,13 Miscarriage and stillbirth or fetal alcohol spectrum disorders (FASDs) among pregnant women.6,12,14,15 Long-Term Health Risks Over time, excessive alcohol use can lead to the development of chronic diseases and other serious problems including: High blood pressure, heart disease, stroke, liver disease, and digestive problems.6,16-21 Cancer of the breast, mouth, throat, esophagus, liver, and colon.6,22 Learning and memory problems, including dementia and poor school performance.6 Mental health problems, including depression and anxiety.6,23 Social problems, including lost productivity, family problems, and unemployment.6,24,25 Alcohol dependence, or alcoholism.6 By not drinking too much, you can reduce the risk of these short- and long-term health risks http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm
Five Solas Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 4 minutes ago, Calm said: ... I think we can all (every single participant on this forum) agree excessive drinking is bad, Calm. However, that wasn't the point of the previous post... --Erik
Calm Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 Urgh..it did it to me again. I had a part 2 postwith tobacco states for comparison of dangers. Got lost in cyber space. Which caused more deaths and such for comparison. Maybe tomorrow.
rodheadlee Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, Teancum said: Nor does your position that LDS apostates go to outer darkness along with the sons of perdition. But as Smac demonstrated your interpretation is in error. It's not my position, I didn't write D&C 84:41. No one wants to address this verse. Edited February 11, 2016 by rodheadlee
JAHS Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 27 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: Many people have pointed this "Only those who "receive the Holy Ghost" and "have the heavens opened unto him" and "know God" and then "sin against him" by "deny[ing] Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him" out to me and I ask you when you get your Endowment do not the Heavens Open unto you? It's not my position, I didn't write D&C 84:41. No one wants to address this verse. To me D&C 84:41 just means that you sins will not be forgiven and therefore you cannot be exalted in heaven but will go to one of the lower kingdoms. I would not say the heavens were opened to me when I received my endowment; although my understanding of the gospel and God was greatly made clear to me. Opening of the heavens means that either an angel or God has actually appeared to you in some sort of vision so that it was made undeniably clear to you that there is a God and a heaven. That has happened to very few people. Like Joseph Smith said. "He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it with his eyes open;" (Joseph Smith King Follett Discourse) 1
FormerLDS Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 I've made a rather serious doctrinal correction to the Cordell Vail "Eternal Progression" chart which, although wildly inaccurate with respect to official LDS theology, does accurately depict the typical member's perception of LDS theology.
JLHPROF Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) 21 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: I've made a rather serious doctrinal correction to the Cordell Vail "Eternal Progression" chart which, although wildly inaccurate with respect to official LDS theology, does accurately depict the typical member's perception of LDS theology. Except your correction to "eternal life" is wrong. Eternal life IS immortality. Eternal lives are something else. Anyone who receives a resurrection will live eternally, not just Celestial. You may be thinking of "eternal lives", a very different thing. Your labeling of the 2nd degree of the Celestial as endowed has zero basis in any doctrinal teaching and is folklore at best. Your adding of the red "mortal death" is correct, but not necessary. And I fail to see any purpose in your change to the first eternal lives box - both versions appear correct. And where exactly is this inaccurate in "official LDS Theology"? Edited February 11, 2016 by JLHPROF
Jeanne Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) I have to smile at the above graph..I see God trying to figure this out and wondering who should go where. Really..wouldn't just judgement be by the contents of your hearts and love for God and fellowman be sufficient? This is rediculous..besides..I have felt the Holy Ghost or a great spiritual guidance in my life even after resignation. Of course, I have never denied those experiences. Edited February 11, 2016 by Jeanne
JLHPROF Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 7 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I have to smile at the above graph..I see God trying to figure this out and wondering who should go where. Really..wouldn't just judgement be by the contents of your hearts and love for God and fellowman be sufficient? You are actually mostly correct. This will be less about reward and punishment, and more a division by natural consequences. God won't designate some people Celestial and some people Terrestrial. That is simply what they will already be.
FormerLDS Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Except your correction to "eternal life" is wrong. Eternal life IS immortality. Eternal lives are something else. Anyone who receives a resurrection will live eternally, not just Celestial. You may be thinking of "eternal lives", a very different thing. Your labeling of the 2nd degree of the Celestial as endowed has zero basis in any doctrinal teaching and is folklore at best. Your adding of the red "mortal death" is correct, but not necessary. And I fail to see any purpose in your change to the first eternal lives box - both versions appear correct. And where exactly is this inaccurate in "official LDS Theology"? I suggest you look up LDS "Eternal Life" and educate yourself. You're clearly are quite confused about the subject (understandably so, and know that you're not the only one).
Teancum Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 11 hours ago, rodheadlee said: It's not my position, I didn't write D&C 84:41. No one wants to address this verse. It seems one needs to determine what all together turning away from the covenant as well as what receiving it means. It seems clear how you interpret it. Do you have your interpretation supported by any LDS leaders?
SmileyMcGee Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) On 2/9/2016 at 9:11 PM, 6EQUJ5 said: This is false. Don't trust anything from IRR. They are an unashamed and rabid anti-Mormon outfit and their doctrinal understanding is garbage. Apostates aren't going to have a good time -- for a while at least -- but they will not be in OD. Haha. The inclusion of "sorcerers" on the path to the telestial kingdom was kind of a dead giveaway that this was produced by evangelicals. No other group seems to take sorcery serious anymore...especially to the point of scolding children for reading harry potter. Pretty funny stuff: Edited February 12, 2016 by SmileyMcGee Add video
Russell C McGregor Posted February 14, 2016 Posted February 14, 2016 Well, I've been to the Forum That Must Not Be Named, and there are loads of apostates there. Oh, did you mean a different Outer Darkness? 3
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