VideoGameJunkie Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) I came across this picture on a website and look where the path apostasy takes you from the straight and narrow way. It leads right to Outer Darkness. Thoughts? Edited February 9, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie
6EQUJ5 Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 14 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I came across this picture on an LDS website and look where the path apostasy takes you from the straight and narrow way. It leads right to Outer Darkness. Thoughts? This is false. Don't trust anything from IRR. They are an unashamed and rabid anti-Mormon outfit and their doctrinal understanding is garbage. Apostates aren't going to have a good time -- for a while at least -- but they will not be in OD. 3
6EQUJ5 Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 And what are "Realms of Deity??" Whoever put this graphic together is either ignorant or devious. Maybe both.
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 9, 2016 Author Posted February 9, 2016 3 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said: This is false. Don't trust anything from IRR. They are an unashamed and rabid anti-Mormon outfit and their doctrinal understanding is garbage. Apostates aren't going to have a good time -- for a while at least -- but they will not be in OD. But the rest of the chart is correct?
Nevo Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 You found that on an LDS website? The Institute for Religious Research—the source of the image—is an evangelical Christian apologetics ministry not especially friendly to the Church. (I'd link to their website but I think there's temple content on it.)
JLHPROF Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 3 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said: This is false. Don't trust anything from IRR. They are an unashamed and rabid anti-Mormon outfit and their doctrinal understanding is garbage. Apostates aren't going to have a good time -- for a while at least -- but they will not be in OD. I think this is the first time we've agreed on something. Outer darkness is reserved for a very special class of wrong.
6EQUJ5 Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 1 minute ago, VideoGameJunkie said: But the rest of the chart is correct? Looks fairly accurate to me. But it is an oversimplification for sure.
Calm Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) As 6E states, this is a nonLDS site that is antimormon. And their stuff contains a lot of errors and misrepresentations. This is one of them. You have to do a lot more than apostatize to end up in Outer Darkness. I suppose they would be called the ultimate apostates given that they have to reject what they know to be true as false, reject Christ as if he were the sun shining in the sky and they insisting it was dark. Plus the speculation of the Celestial Kingdom of the divisions there based on marriage, endowment and baptism is pure speculation and not doctrine. "Realms of deity" is not on lds.org, but doing a search on it brings up some older Plan of Salvation charts on one site, but no information on who made them. Edited February 9, 2016 by Calm
3DOP Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 Well Video Game...If there is an outer darkness, if there is any point to it, somebody has to be IN outer darkness. Why not those who have no excuse? You ask a lot of questions that seem to question traditional LDS thought. Do you have any opinions of your own on this? Do you even agree with the idea of outer darkness? Who would you place in outer darkness that better qualifies than apostates, assuming you believe in outer darkness? 2
rodheadlee Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) 58 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I came across this picture on a website and look where the path apostasy takes you from the straight and narrow way. It leads right to Outer Darkness. Thoughts? 41 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said: This is false. Don't trust anything from IRR. They are an unashamed and rabid anti-Mormon outfit and their doctrinal understanding is garbage. Apostates aren't going to have a good time -- for a while at least -- but they will not be in OD. Why is it false? This sounds like the Outer Darkness after apostasy to me. This is from D&C 84: 39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood. 40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved. 41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. Edited February 9, 2016 by rodheadlee 1
JAHS Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 7 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: But the rest of the chart is correct? It's oversimplified but mostly correct. The only ones we know of that go to outer darkness are the one third cast out of the pre-mortal world and a very small hand full of mortals who have committed the unpardonable sin, which could be regarded as apostasy, but to a much higher degree compared to regular apostates. The highest level of the Celestial kingdom does require temple marriage but we don't really know much about the qualifications for the other two levels. Oh and I'm pretty sure I am on the straight and narrow way but I haven't seen any roman pillars yet. 2
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 9, 2016 Author Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, 3DOP said: Well Video Game...If there is an outer darkness, if there is any point to it, somebody has to be IN outer darkness. Why not those who have no excuse? You ask a lot of questions that seem to question traditional LDS thought. Do you have any opinions of your own on this? Do you even agree with the idea of outer darkness? Who would you place in outer darkness that better qualifies than apostates, assuming you believe in outer darkness? Yes I believe in an Outer Darkness, but I think it's reserved for people like Judas and Cain. Edited February 9, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie
filovirus Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 I see no Spirit World, Resurrection, or Final Judgment. Looks like the Final Judgment was already decided by whomever put this chart together.
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 9, 2016 Author Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) Is this a better chart then? It doesn't include the 3 different degrees in the Celestial Kingdom though. Edited February 9, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie
JLHPROF Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 4 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Is this a better chart then? It doesn't include the 3 different degrees in the Celestial Kingdom though. Meh...about as good as the first one. Judgement should be before the resurrection shouldn't it? Else how else would we be resurrected to a Celestial body BEFORE being judged as worthy of a Celestial body, or if resurrected with a Terrestrial Body and then be judged of a different glory. Also, no division in the Celestial.
6EQUJ5 Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) 45 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: 39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood. 40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved. 41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. That's the key phrase. Leaving the Church NOT does qualify. Not to mention that leaving the Church does not begin to come close to what is described in D&C 76. Quote 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— 37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; Maybe some apostates fall into this category but 99.999999999 of them do not. Edited February 9, 2016 by 6EQUJ5
Calm Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 Quote Leaving the Church does qualify. Perhaps you mean "does not"?
6EQUJ5 Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 14 minutes ago, Calm said: Perhaps you mean "does not"? Thanks for catching that.
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 9, 2016 Author Posted February 9, 2016 32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Meh...about as good as the first one. Judgement should be before the resurrection shouldn't it? Else how else would we be resurrected to a Celestial body BEFORE being judged as worthy of a Celestial body, or if resurrected with a Terrestrial Body and then be judged of a different glory. Also, no division in the Celestial. I didn't think about how we should have judgment before resurrection so we know what kind of body we are resurrected with. Good call. And the first photo was the only plan of salvation chart I could find that had the division in the Celestial Kingdom.
smac97 Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism (a persuasive, but not mandatory, authority) (emphasis added): Quote LDS scriptures establish a loving and hopeful attitude toward apostates. Latter-day Saints are strongly counseled to love those who have left the faith, and to encourage, plead, and work with those who have strayed, inviting "the lost sheep" back to the fold (Luke 15:3-7). Of the wayward, the resurrected Savior taught, "Ye shall not cast him out of your…places of worship, for unto such shall ye continue to minister; for ye know not but what they will return and repent, and come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I shall heal them; and ye shall be the means of bringing salvation unto them" (3 Ne. 18:32). The desire to return is motivated by the reality of repentance enabled by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. "He who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more. By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins-behold, he will confess them and forsake them" (D&C 58:42-43). Thanks, -Smac 1
rodheadlee Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 28 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said: That's the key phrase. Leaving the Church NOT does qualify. Not to mention that leaving the Church does not begin to come close to what is described in D&C 76. Maybe some apostates fall into this category but 99.999999999 of them do not. How are you going to exercise your Priesthood if you leave the Church? If you altogether turn away from the Priesthood and break your oath with the Father that is the definition of apostasy. You all seem to think that you need a visitation from Christ to deny the Holy Ghost. I don't think that's true you would then be denying Christ. If you deny the witnesses that the Holy Ghost gives you as you receive your ordinances as you enter and grow in the Church that is denying the Holy Ghost. That's why you have to be in the Outer Darkness because you won't even accept the Holy Ghost as teacher, as a bringer of God's truth. Why should you receive a visit from Christ if you won't accept the Holy Ghost?
rodheadlee Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 19 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I didn't think about how we should have judgment before resurrection so we know what kind of body we are resurrected with. Good call. And the first photo was the only plan of salvation chart I could find that had the division in the Celestial Kingdom. All are not resurrected at the same time, so therefore all are not judged at the same time
Calm Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) 15 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: How are you going to exercise your Priesthood if you leave the Church? If you altogether turn away from the Priesthood and break your oath with the Father that is the definition of apostasy. You all seem to think that you need a visitation from Christ to deny the Holy Ghost. I don't think that's true you would then be denying Christ. If you deny the witnesses that the Holy Ghost gives you as you receive your ordinances as you enter and grow in the Church that is denying the Holy Ghost. That's why you have to be in the Outer Darkness because you won't even accept the Holy Ghost as teacher, as a bringer of God's truth. Why should you receive a visit from Christ if you won't accept the Holy Ghost? Well, why I say it, it is because of how JS described it: http://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Doctrine_and_Covenants/sections076-100/section076/76_15sinagainsthg_js.htm Quote All sins shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun doesn't shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me; he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the Devil--the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life--the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance: they make open war like the Devil, and awful is the consequence. Notice he doesn't say "all apostates". Edited February 9, 2016 by Calm
rodheadlee Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 2 minutes ago, Calm said: Well, why I say it, it is because of how JS described it: http://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Doctrine_and_Covenants/sections076-100/section076/76_15sinagainsthg_js.htm Yeah, that's what I said in my own words. What do think "have the heavens open unto him" means? You don't think the heavens open when you get endowed or sealed in the temple or make an oath with God regarding the Priesthood??or get a healing blessing?
Calm Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) I don't see a lot of apostates believing while they deny they believe though which is what I think "He has got to say that the sun doesn't shine while he sees it" means. Nor do I see most apostates lusting for the blood of the prophets. Edited February 9, 2016 by Calm
Recommended Posts