VideoGameJunkie Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 Since it's such a serious sin to engage in homosexuality, and since we know people can't choose whether they're gay or not, why did God create gay people to go through such a challenge in life that if they acted on their natural instinct they'd be apostates. Before you bring up the question why did God create the disabled, malnourished, etc none of those things prevents salvation, in fact those challenges help for a better chance at salvation. Homosexuality doesnt. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 You may need to question some of your assumptions here. Sexual identity is a late 19th-century social construct with no historical parallel, only became ascendant in the West in the past 50 years, and is still foreign to most cultures and societies that haven't yet experienced the Western media's colonisation of the imagination. 4
JAHS Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 What about people born with a proclivity to alcohol addiction, or people who have short tempers, kleptomania, or pedophilia, etc. These are challenges that could prevent salvation if one does not learn to control them. Like these I believe there is a genetic predisposition for those who are gay. But it must be controlled the same as the other weaknesses. 3
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, JAHS said: What about people born with a proclivity to alcohol addiction, or people who have short tempers, kleptomania, or pedophilia, etc. These are challenges that could prevent salvation if one does not learn to control them. Like these I believe there is a genetic predisposition for those who are gay. But it must be controlled the same as the other weaknesses. Pedophilia is more of a mental illness. Homosexuality is an identity.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: You may need to question some of your assumptions here. Sexual identity is a late 19th-century social construct with no historical parallel, only became ascendant in the West in the past 50 years, and is still foreign to most cultures and societies that haven't yet experienced the Western media's colonisation of the imagination. So you're saying gays have a choice to be straight?
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: So you're saying gays have a choice to be straight? Nope. I'm saying that both 'gay' and 'straight' have only existed for about 140 years, though mostly without wide acceptance outside the psychological community for most of that time.
carbon dioxide Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 Perhaps some of this is simply is the effects of man being fallen and mortal. Perhaps some of our issues we had in the premortal world and this is a test to finally overcome them. They may be a genetic basis for homosexuality. Not sure on that but even if there is, that does not mean God takes time out of his schedule to give select the genes we are given. I think he busy with more important things than whether I should have blue eyes over brown eyes in mortality. Likewise I don't see God purposely giving some people genes that would lead to them being gay, a pedophile, a rapist, a murderer, ect. Genes mainly affect our physical makeup. They don't tell us what to like or not like.
Duncan Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 I think it's to see who is Christian or not, how well do we actually treat other people? I am not worried about them 1
Tacenda Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 18 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Nope. I'm saying that both 'gay' and 'straight' have only existed for about 140 years, though mostly without wide acceptance outside the psychological community for most of that time. CFR
BlueDreams Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 Same reason He found it ok to give any of us experiences that may lead to challenge. I was born in a circumstance that LDS culture and leaders discourage to 1) ever happen and 2) to adopt out when it does. For years I felt like I carried an irreversible deficit...and then over time I realized this odd path the Lord set from me literally from birth has been a great asset and gift in understanding others and reaching out with compassion. I don't regret my circumstance even though many would label it a challenge (and yes, with eternal consequences....I'm technically un-sealed to anybody). From the people I know who have worked to find a working balance between LGB and LDS, I have found beautiful and unique stories of faith that I honestly do not know whether they could receive it any other way. I believe its an opportunity to see and exude Christ in a way that I can't and to show His work and help the Body of saints expand as well. Which is why I try to not label anyone with said experience as implicitly born into a challenge. The distinction between challenge and opportunity is a small one. With luv, BD 1
Ahab Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 There is nothing at all wrong with considering someone of the same sex as being sexually attractive. Nothing at all. We're just not supposed to have sexual relations (aka sex or sexual intercourse or the big hook up) with anyone unless they are of the opposite sex and we are married to them Sheesh. It's like we need a sex ed course to explain this stuff these days. 2
JAHS Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) 36 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Pedophilia is more of a mental illness. Homosexuality is an identity. It's still a weakness to overcome or receive treatment for. What about the others? Edited January 13, 2016 by JAHS
webbles Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 33 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Pedophilia is more of a mental illness. Homosexuality is an identity. You do realize that homosexuality was considered a mental illness up until the late 1900's.
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Tacenda said: CFR If you're really interested, this Salon interview with Hanne Blank is a good place to start. More academic stuff is usually behind publishers' paywalls, but I can copy-and-paste some selections for you if you wish. From my perspective as a professional historian, this topic, more than any other I know, illustrates the essential role of historical ignorance in propping up ascendant discourses. Edited January 13, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan 3
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 4 minutes ago, webbles said: You do realize that homosexuality was considered a mental illness up until the late 1900's. And now we know better don't we?
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 6 minutes ago, JAHS said: It's still a weakness to overcome or receive treatment for. What about the others? Pedophilia is a serious sin and crime which can result in major jail time. The others while bad aren't even in the same league.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: There is nothing at all wrong with considering someone of the same sex as being sexually attractive. Nothing at all. We're just not supposed to have sexual relations (aka sex or sexual intercourse or the big hook up) with anyone unless they are of the opposite sex and we are married to them Sheesh. It's like we need a sex ed course to explain this stuff these days. Ya but imagine how hard that must be. Imagine you love chocolate and then are told you can never eat chocolate. Your body and mind wants it, but you will never be able to eat chocolate ever, while you watch as others are able to enjoy chocolate but not you because your love of chocolate is wrong. That's how gays feel. They'll never be able to enjoy chocolate in this life.
JAHS Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Pedophilia is a serious sin and crime which can result in major jail time. The others while bad aren't even in the same league. But the others can still hinder salvation if not controlled or eliminated.
webbles Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: And now we know better don't we? I've always wondered how and why we know better. Obviously pedophilia is a horrible act. But in the mind, how is it that much different from heterosexuality, homosexuality, etc?
Ahab Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Ya but imagine how hard that must be. Imagine you love chocolate and then are told you can never eat chocolate. Your body and mind wants it, but you will never be able to eat chocolate ever, while you watch as others are able to enjoy chocolate but not you because your love of chocolate is wrong. That's how gays feel. They'll never be able to enjoy chocolate in this life. I don't have to imagine that. That's how I feel every day as someone who considers both men and women as being sexually attractive. At least I get to have sexual relations with somebody. Just my one woman. My one opposite sex sexual companion. And every other person is entitled to one opposite sex sexual companion of their own too. Not all, but one. But the one has to be of the opposite sex or I don't get to have any. And I am very thankful and blessed for the one that I have. 1
rodheadlee Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Since it's such a serious sin to engage in homosexuality, and since we know people can't choose whether they're gay or not, why did God create gay people to go through such a challenge in life that if they acted on their natural instinct they'd be apostates. Before you bring up the question why did God create the disabled, malnourished, etc none of those things prevents salvation, in fact those challenges help for a better chance at salvation. Homosexuality doesnt. Ether 12: 27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their aweakness. I bgive unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my cgrace is sufficient for all men that dhumble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make eweak things become strong unto them. 28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that afaith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of allbrighteousness. 3
The Nehor Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Pedophilia is more of a mental illness. Homosexuality is an identity. No, pedophilia is a kind of sexual fetish. I am not convinced homosexuality isn't also though of course it is less morally repugnant then pedophilia which is innately predatory. 21 minutes ago, webbles said: I've always wondered how and why we know better. Obviously pedophilia is a horrible act. But in the mind, how is it that much different from heterosexuality, homosexuality, etc? It is predatory and manipulative and if there is any real love beside the lust it is a twisted kind of love that should be expunged. 15 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Ya but imagine how hard that must be. Imagine you love chocolate and then are told you can never eat chocolate. Your body and mind wants it, but you will never be able to eat chocolate ever, while you watch as others are able to enjoy chocolate but not you because your love of chocolate is wrong. That's how gays feel. They'll never be able to enjoy chocolate in this life. Possibly. 1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said: So you're saying gays have a choice to be straight? I do not know if all can change. Some can. Some may not be able to. While the public line is that sexual identity is fixed when a lot of this comes up dig deeper and they start talking about Kinsey Scales. I have gay friends and more then one claims they have seduced a straight guy. I was admittedly targeted by one but while I was flattered I turned him down. It is even widely acknowledged that people shift on the scale. I think the growing experimentation of homosexuality by both men and women is not because the same percentage of people previously went through life sexually repressed but because the option is available complete with easy access to the porn to fuel the imagination. I have been single a long time and I have been on dating sites and back then I was often propositioned by men seeking a one-time encounter, often while in a relationship. I know I am not an isolated case and I am told it is becoming more prevalent. Take a guy who has been rejected by women for years and give him a pleasureable homosexual experience and he might be hooked. The human brain is amazingly malleable. I do not know how much of gender attraction is fixed and how much is built on experiences, environment, and the like. Almost everyone has some kind of a sexual fetish or fetishes (or strong preferences if you prefer) even if they are very mild. I do not consider mine to be a choice but I know where some of them came from and it wasn't genetics. They were formed by experiences. As to why same-sex attraction exists, no idea. In some cases I expect it does come close to mental illness. In others it manifested at puberty and who knows why it is there. I do believe that the growing sexual dysfunctions in general we are dealing with could be mitigated by getting rid of our obsession with and tolerance of porn. It was dangerous enough when I was a teenager and it was magazines or movies that took hours to download. Now with almost instant access it does a lot more to the brain. I fully expect porn addiction (clinical, not what LDS call addiction) to be a major health crisis in the next few decades. 4
Calm Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) 37 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Ya but imagine how hard that must be. Imagine you love chocolate and then are told you can never eat chocolate. Your body and mind wants it, but you will never be able to eat chocolate ever, while you watch as others are able to enjoy chocolate but not you because your love of chocolate is wrong. That's how gays feel. They'll never be able to enjoy chocolate in this life. I think many might find your use of love of chocolate to be trivializing. I can't eat chocolate any more, not even a small amount without major suffering for it that night. So I have vowed never to have it again. At times I break my vow, but that is kind of irrevelant to my point. I would never, ever equate my disappointment not to indulge myself to the knowledge that if I wished to live the Law of Chasity according to LDS doctrine, I would not be able to have a companion that I was both naturally physically and emotionally attracted to in mortality unless something miraculous happened. No need to use anything but being alone without a romantic companion as an analogy imo. Not even not being able to have children can compare, imo. Edited January 13, 2016 by Calm 1
Popular Post Gillebre Posted January 13, 2016 Popular Post Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) God allows us the experience of being weak in the face of our born desires because such things enable true understanding and empathy. I live as a member of His Church and yet experience such feelings as are wholly unwelcome in my spiritual life. God has elected for my trial in the face of same-gender attraction because the contrast between carnal and spiritual will help refine me into the man I'm meant to become. I will never perfectly appreciate light without first having passed through utter darkness. Living with the internal conflict of same-sex feelings and yet having real faith in the teachings of Jesus Christ is an incredible weight and burden upon my spirit. It will lead me to the One who suffered it with me, and for me. Having these feelings, and the necessity of managing them, has brought me closer to my Savior than any other obstacle in my life. It is in great part because of my sexual temptations that I have come to truly know who He is. I know the perfect goodness of His loving and tender heart as I have sought peace in His warm embrace. I know the integrity of His word and I feel deep down the completeness of His plan, and that makes what I'm dealing with okay because I trust Him. He is on my right hand and on my left, His Spirit in my heart, many angels supporting me in the midst of my anguish. He really does exist. This great trial is so much easier to bear now that I am starting to see who He really is. That makes me grateful for the horribly painful experiences I face daily as I am forced to cut out a part of my natural self, so to speak, in favor of the light and peace He wants to put in it's place. Edited January 13, 2016 by Gillebre 8
Thinking Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: You may need to question some of your assumptions here. Sexual identity is a late 19th-century social construct with no historical parallel, only became ascendant in the West in the past 50 years, and is still foreign to most cultures and societies that haven't yet experienced the Western media's colonisation of the imagination. In those societies homosexuals are still in the closet. Edited to add: Homosexuality was punishable by death under the Law of Moses. I don't think homosexuals walked around holding hands. Quote If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (Leviticus 20:13) Edited January 13, 2016 by Thinking Addition
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