carbon dioxide Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 2 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Pedophilia is more of a mental illness. Homosexuality is an identity. Some people say homosexuality is a mental illness. I am sure there are many pedophiles that struggle with their issues the same as homosexuals struggle or we all struggle with whatever issues that afflict us. Why can't it also be considered an orientation?
carbon dioxide Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 2 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Pedophilia is a serious sin and crime which can result in major jail time. The others while bad aren't even in the same league. Legally they are different. One is not illegal while one is and one might be extremely evil in our minds while the other may just be wrong but in terms of the law of God, what kingdom does a practicing homosexual receive in the eternities and what kingdom does a practicing pedophile receive?
Calm Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 Quote that makes what I'm dealing with okay because I trust Him. While not in the same category, this is how I make sense of what I am going through in my life as well. It seems to me it is this trust that is essential to staying grounded in faith and being able to endure. Choosing to endure primarily out of fear or hope of reward....I see those who are motivated by these tend to be constantly questioning and secondguessing themselves. I also believe it is only trust (faith in God's love for us) that will allow us to eventually lay all that we are at God's feet which in turn will allow Him to give it all back to us purified, sanctified, and glorified. I don't think that hope for rewards of a better life or fear of an eternal punishment will be enough to get us to loosen our deathgrip on what we believe and see as our Self, though they work well enough for stuff we aren't so fond of. Trust will be what gets us past the fear of losing ourselves. 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: You may need to question some of your assumptions here. Sexual identity is a late 19th-century social construct with no historical parallel, only became ascendant in the West in the past 50 years, and is still foreign to most cultures and societies that haven't yet experienced the Western media's colonisation of the imagination. Homosexuality is older than people.
Avatar4321 Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 The Lord blesses us all with trials to help us become more like Him. Some are extremely challenging 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 1 hour ago, Thinking said: In those societies homosexuals are still in the closet. I work in a research school that is filled with professional historians, anthropologists and linguists who all focus their research on the Asia-Pacific region. Not one of them would agree with you, but by all means keep telling yourself this. As I noted above, historical ignorance is absolutely essential in propping up an ascendant discourse, enabling supporters to ignore knowable and specific genealogies in favour of the fiction of 'always already' essentialism. Quote Homosexuality was punishable by death under the Law of Moses. I don't think homosexuals walked around holding hands. No, 'homosexuality' wasn't. The Bible is completely silent on the topic of 'homosexuality', which is what we would expect from a text of its age. What it condemns is same-gender sexual intercourse, which has been only one of literally 1000s of forms of sexual expression available to humankind over its history. An ancient Hebrew who saw two men 'walking around holding hands' would have seen ... two men. Walking around. Holding hands. 3
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 47 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Homosexuality is older than people. This makes no sense on any level and is factually and demonstrable false. 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I work in a research school that is filled with professional historians, anthropologists and linguists who all focus their research on the Asia-Pacific region. Not one of them would agree with you, but by all means keep telling yourself this. As I noted above, historical ignorance is absolutely essential in propping up an ascendant discourse, enabling supporters to ignore knowable and specific genealogies in favour of the fiction of 'always already' essentialism. No, 'homosexuality' wasn't. The Bible is completely silent on the topic of 'homosexuality', which is what we would expect from a text of its age. What it condemns is same-gender sexual intercourse, which has been only one of literally 1000s of forms of sexual expression available to humankind over its history. An ancient Hebrew who saw two men 'walking around holding hands' would have seen ... two men. Walking around. Holding hands. CFR
Stargazer Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 5 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Since it's such a serious sin to engage in homosexuality, and since we know people can't choose whether they're gay or not, why did God create gay people to go through such a challenge in life that if they acted on their natural instinct they'd be apostates. Before you bring up the question why did God create the disabled, malnourished, etc none of those things prevents salvation, in fact those challenges help for a better chance at salvation. Homosexuality doesnt. So, where is it written that lack of arms help the armless for a better chance at salvation?
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: CFR Did you read the link I already provided in this thread? Have you read any of the links to research I've provided in innumerable past threads such as this recent one or the last part of this one? As I've urged people to do in past posts, have you taken the time read about how, before intensive Christian missionising, all boys in many parts of Melanesia were successfully socialised through a complex cultural network of myth, ritual, narrative, and societal expectations to privilege male/male relations as the primary mode of sexual expression? Please have a bit of a read and then get back to me. Edited January 13, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan 1
busybee Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 9 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Pedophilia is more of a mental illness. Homosexuality is an identity. Homosexuality was considered a mental illness as well.(before it became socially acceptable). Make of that what you will.
busybee Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 9 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Ya but imagine how hard that must be. Imagine you love chocolate and then are told you can never eat chocolate. Your body and mind wants it, but you will never be able to eat chocolate ever, while you watch as others are able to enjoy chocolate but not you because your love of chocolate is wrong. That's how gays feel. They'll never be able to enjoy chocolate in this life. Knd of like the millions of diabetics in the world. 1
stemelbow Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Since it's such a serious sin to engage in homosexuality, and since we know people can't choose whether they're gay or not, why did God create gay people to go through such a challenge in life that if they acted on their natural instinct they'd be apostates. Before you bring up the question why did God create the disabled, malnourished, etc none of those things prevents salvation, in fact those challenges help for a better chance at salvation. Homosexuality doesnt. Maybe their sexual preference is an eternal component of them. God didnt' make them anything. They just are, and God doesn't disapprove of them. I think that's probable at this point. Edited January 13, 2016 by stemelbow
consiglieri Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 11 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Since it's such a serious sin to engage in homosexuality, and since we know people can't choose whether they're gay or not, why did God create gay people to go through such a challenge in life that if they acted on their natural instinct they'd be apostates. Before you bring up the question why did God create the disabled, malnourished, etc none of those things prevents salvation, in fact those challenges help for a better chance at salvation. Homosexuality doesnt. The scales began to drop from my eyes on this issue back in the early 1980's when I was a dance major at the University of Texas at Austin. I was very much TBM and wore it on my sleeves so everybody else knew, too. I was surprised at first to find out that almost every other male dancer was gay. Some of them became my dearest friends. One of these was Maurice, a tall, lithe, black man with a wonderful smile. Everybody loved Maurice. We were speaking privately one day on the subject of homosexuality. I simply could not understand how somebody so amazing in every other way as Maurice could be homosexual. (I know that may sound like a ridiculous confusion to have, but it was nonetheless the case, and stemmed from my LDS indoctrination.) Maurice asked me, "Do you like girls?" "Yes!" I replied enthusiastically. Maurice: "If I told you to stop liking girls and instead to start liking boys, could you do it?" "No!" I replied emphatically. "Well," Maurice said, "It's the same way with me. Only the opposite." My words dried up. I had no arguments to make. It was suddenly so clear. And I continue to thank Maurice to this day for helping me to see the light. 2
Avatar4321 Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 2 hours ago, busybee said: Knd of like the millions of diabetics in the world. 2 hours ago, busybee said: Knd of like the millions of diabetics in the world. or those with chocolate allergies
Sanpitch Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) It always amazes me how those who love the opposite sex have so much advice for those who love the same sex. Edited January 13, 2016 by Sanpitch spelling
Jeanne Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 12 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Since it's such a serious sin to engage in homosexuality, and since we know people can't choose whether they're gay or not, why did God create gay people to go through such a challenge in life that if they acted on their natural instinct they'd be apostates. Before you bring up the question why did God create the disabled, malnourished, etc none of those things prevents salvation, in fact those challenges help for a better chance at salvation. Homosexuality doesnt. Well..perhaps the church's stance is this is because of their pre-existence..or they chose to do this to overcome...valiant or not..we won't know until we die. It sure doesn't make sense though.
consiglieri Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 6 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Well..perhaps the church's stance is this is because of their pre-existence..or they chose to do this to overcome...valiant or not..we won't know until we die. It sure doesn't make sense though. I really do hope I don't hear any Church leaders make this claim, or even hint at it. Blaming current life-circumstances the Church finds unacceptable on actions in the premortal existence is a road we have gone down before . . . 1
Jeanne Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 1 minute ago, consiglieri said: I really do hope I don't hear any Church leaders make this claim, or even hint at it. Blaming current life-circumstances the Church finds unacceptable on actions in the premortal existence is a road we have gone down before . . . I agree...but what else can they say?
RevTestament Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Did you read the link I already provided in this thread? Have you read any of the links to research I've provided in innumerable past threads such as this recent one or the last part of this one? As I've urged people to do in past posts, have you taken the time read about how, before intensive Christian missionising, all boys in many parts of Melanesia were successfully socialised through a complex cultural network of myth, ritual, narrative, and societal expectations to privilege male/male relations as the primary mode of sexual expression? Please have a bit of a read and then get back to me. Just a word of caution - I actually got physically ill/sick to my stomach reading about this, and had to stop and make myself some breakfast - which did not consist of the innocent flesh of other people.... I did note that the practices of these people seem to also initiate the young males into the cannibalistic-headhunter status of their seniors in which the sole purpose became to go out and hunt and kill an innocent soul.... hardly the stuff of a Christian initiate.... Indeed it seems to me quite the opposite. Can one get initiated into a satanic cult? Also highly relevant is the "secretness" of this societies in these cultures... often being secreted from the mothers and the women. I am quite glad I was not born into one of these tribes and not subjected to these things against my will.
The Nehor Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 29 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I really do hope I don't hear any Church leaders make this claim, or even hint at it. Blaming current life-circumstances the Church finds unacceptable on actions in the premortal existence is a road we have gone down before . . . And in some cases it might even be true. However God has not given any broad directives as to what premortal worthiness or unworthiness means for this life. If there is a broad correlation God has wisely not told us what it is. It seems for now that the only thing we know is that premortality influenced our circumstances in this life but, absent revelation, we do not know if our trials are because we flunked before or because we are strong enough to bear them. We also do not know if our blessings come because we were faithful in the last life or whether we are such a colossal screw up that without extra good training wheels we would be unable to accomplish anything.
RevTestament Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 13 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Since it's such a serious sin to engage in homosexuality, and since we know people can't choose whether they're gay or not, why did God create gay people to go through such a challenge in life that if they acted on their natural instinct they'd be apostates. Before you bring up the question why did God create the disabled, malnourished, etc none of those things prevents salvation, in fact those challenges help for a better chance at salvation. Homosexuality doesnt. And what do gays claim to pedophiles? Do gays claim pedophiles chose to be that way? Or is it just an odd mental illness they were born with or later afflicted with? Should pedophiles resist such tempations as they have? Do homosexuals acknowledge that one can shape their sexuality by who the interact with? what they watch? what they think about? and what they choose to engage in? Does environment play a role in our sexual development? Can one who was heterosexually oriented decide they are homosexual later? If so, what does that say about claims that homosexuals are born that way? And whether homosexuals can choose to be hetersexual?
The Nehor Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 3 hours ago, stemelbow said: Maybe their sexual preference is an eternal component of them. God didnt' make them anything. They just are, and God doesn't disapprove of them. I think that's probable at this point. I doubt it. If so God would have likely have told us. If you believe it I would be praying to God every night to bring this revelation forth. I know I would. The only reason I can think of that such a revelation would not have hit is the saints not wanting it enough.
Bob Crockett Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, consiglieri said: "Yes!" I replied enthusiastically. Maurice: "If I told you to stop liking girls and instead to start liking boys, could you do it?" "No!" I replied emphatically. "Well," Maurice said, "It's the same way with me. Only the opposite." My words dried up. I had no arguments to make. It was suddenly so clear. And I continue to thank Maurice to this day for helping me to see the light. Masters and Johnson wrote decades ago that homosexual attraction (when it was considered by the APA to a be disorder) is a continuum, from slight interest in the same sex to exclusive interest to the point where one cannot be aroused with an opposite sex partner. I have many homosexual male friends who have had relationships with women, for various reasons. I have a couple of lesbian friends who move back and forth to relationships with men. But, it is the politically correct thing to say what you have just said, for such an argument supports the "born this way" view. The "light" you have seen is a false light, one dictated by political correctness. The reality is that all of us have innate sexual issues and hangups, but the Bible and the Church teaches that homosexual relations are wrong. And, it isn't just the LDS Church -- many ecclesiastical organizations teach the same thing (although, there again, there's a continuum from death (Muslim) to easy acknowledgment and forgiveness (Anglicans, although there's rebellion from the African churches over that)). But I tire hearing from people who live their lives on the basis of the politically correct thing to do and say. I kind of doubt that you ever got your pants in a wad over the Church's refusal to baptize the children of polygs. I'm not sure how long that policy has been in place, but I suspect it has been since the 1920s. Edited January 13, 2016 by Bob Crockett 1
Bobbieaware Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 29 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I really do hope I don't hear any Church leaders make this claim, or even hint at it. Blaming current life-circumstances the Church finds unacceptable on actions in the premortal existence is a road we have gone down before . . . This life could quite properly be called the 'pre-resurrection life,' a state of existence that's somewhat analogous to the pre-mortal life. So after the final judgement, when each individual in the human race will be resurrected and assigned to either the celestial kingdom, terrestrial kingdom, telestial kingdom, or outer darkness, will it also be unfair and improper at that time to assert that the assignments of individuals to one of these four kingdoms came as a direct consequence of the thoughts and actions they chose while dwelling in mortality?
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