Belief In Literal Adam/eve Required To Comprehend Atonement

[Calm]

"A reference is something that refers to something"

No, that is not how it is defined for the board guidelines...for the board rules the reference is the something being referred to, a source itself...not just saying I have a source.

When CFR is issued, you need to document your belief/opinion with other scources that are currently available for anyone to read. Saying God will tell you is not sufficient as not everyone has immediate access to God telling them immediately...even if they are worthy to receive revelation, God sends it in his own time so using him as a reference may be eternally appropriate, but the board operates on a more mundane basis.

If you are not willing to work with the board's limitations, then the mods may end up feeling you shouldn't have the privilege to post. Seen it happen to others who wanted to live by the rules they chose (no, I am not a mod, but I have seen it and can even give you sources...such as the red writing warning given you in an earlier post in this thread.

Think of it as rendering to Caesar and all that....

See this page to demonstrate that while your use is correct in many contexts, there are other definitions and the mods have chosen the "authority" category for the guidelines context:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/reference

It is hardly a difficult concept and given how long you have been posting on the board, your excuse not to demonstrate actual sources seems like juvenile gameplaying. It does not help inspire any confidence in your opinion.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Calm

[Ahab]

To show Ahab how it is done, I used site:lds.org "Adam", "Eve", and "children".

Came up with this:

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-6-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng

Can't quote because on ipad, but it states they couldn't have children because they weren't mortal, not because they didn't know how.

That's only some of all of the doctrine on this issue that I have been referring to. But I am counting that as a reference.

And mortality isn't really what is required to have children, otherwise only mortals would be able to have children. It's just that they didn't know how to do it until they ate from the fruit of that tree and they couldn't do that without becoming mortal. So yes it wasn't until they became mortal but no it wasn't because they were mortal. They were able to because then they knew how to do it along with knowing everything else they knew by gaining knowledge of good and evil.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Ahab

[Calm]

So demonstrate your understanding is the same as church doctrine by showing church sources that are saying exactly that.

From what I quoted, church doctrine is that mortality was essential for Adam and Eve to have children. I agree that given other church doctrine, having children is possible for God, at least in some form.

I will get a source for eternal increase.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Calm

[bluebell]

Remember, I'm looking at this metaphorically, not literally. Spiritual death could be viewed as any separation from God.  This would be true whether separation is a physical/spatial or caused by sin. Physical death is the death of the body. Both happen or become possible through birth into mortality.

I think i'm following you.  It's just that, to take that view means that Christ was spiritual dead, because He too, was separated from God when He was born.  Metaphorically, the definition doesn't seem to work because it negates a vital aspect of the Atonement-that Christ could Atone because He was not spiritually dead.

[Ahab]

So demonstrate your understanding is the same as church doctrine by showing church sources that are saying exactly that.

From what I quoted, church doctrine is that mortality was essential for Adam and Eve to have children. I agree that given other church doctrine, having children is possible for God, at least in some form.

I will get a source for eternal increase.

I said I include your source as a reference, so that should suffice to meet the board guidelines. That and other similar sources are my reference.

Now nobody should be saying I have not provided a reference.

Not that it is enough to make everyone agree with my comprehension on this issue. No amount of references could do that.

To me it comes down to all that is included within the scope of the knowledge of good and evil and whether or not at least some of that knowledge waa necessary for Adam and Eve to be able to have children together. If yes then the next question is to how they could have obtained that knowledge. The knowledge would be the thing that would be required, though. If the only way to get it required that they become mortal then, then I'm glad they obtained that knowledge.

[JLHPROF]

all that is included within the scope of the knowledge of good and evil and whether or not at least some of that knowledge waa necessary for Adam and Eve to be able to have children together. If yes then the next question is to how they could have obtained that knowledge. The knowledge would be the thing that would be required, though. If the only way to get it required that they become mortal then, then I'm glad they obtained that knowledge.

 

And that directly contradicts the teachings of the temple.

Adam and Eve knew how to have children before the fall.  They were commanded to do so.  They knew that it was required to fall in order to accomplish this task.  Knowledge of good and evil, although connected to having posterity, does not refer to their awareness of how to multiply and replenish the earth.

Nor does "innocence" require ignorance of basic biology that has always existed.

[CV75]

I suppose your question goes back to the beginning of the universe, and why are the laws of the universe what they are? I don't know why all physical structures are destructible. But they are. The bonds between molecules are weak enough that they may be pulled apart with sufficient force. Thus all living things can die. The inducing event you're looking for is the genesis of this particular universe itself, with all its particular laws.

 

You'd need another inducing event to get immortality. Maybe a change to the fundamental properties of matter. 

This isn’t answering the question. Is this your way of trying to get me to shut up, or do you truly not understand what I’m asking? LOL

 

The question isn’t about the destructibility of physical things (like God), or even whether they get destroyed or not. You're only saying that the random genesis event of the universe (whatever that means) preceded life on earth and so it also proceeded to induce life on earth. Not only does it necessarily follow, but it is like saying “the random genesis of the result of random genesis,” yet another useless statement in terms of its relationship to the Atonement.

 

Creation and order are emergent properties of the universe. I find that to be incredibly inspiring and holy, but I suppose that's off-topic.

Yes, it may be off-topic, but since you mentioned it, your whole premise depends on the Atonement—the foundation of creation and order--responding to life-inducing random events that you're saying a universe of creation and order generates! Talk about circular!

 

P.S.

Would please post your responses outside of my post quote boxes like everyone else does? Thank you.

Edited September 25, 2015 by CV75

[CV75]

What does someone else's agency have to do with you? Agency predates the garden, right?

That we chose to enter mortality through Adam and Eve's lineage isn't the issue. It is that the Fall of Adam and Eve was of their choosing, just as the Lord's Atonement was of His choosing.

 

But since you asked, others' agency affects me, and even the scope of my agency, all the time. We're always hearing how someone's choice to murder robs the victim of agency, and how rearing our children in light and truth extends and affords agency to them. But that particular principle is off-topic, I think.

[CV75]

Remember, I'm looking at this metaphorically, not literally. Spiritual death could be viewed as any separation from God. This would be true whether separation is a physical/spatial or caused by sin. Physical death is the death of the body. Both happen or become possible through birth into mortality.

But both happen through birth because of the Fall, which enabled birth and death to occurr in this world.

[Ahab]

And that directly contradicts the teachings of the temple.

Be a little more specific than "that". Which part of what I said DO YOU THINK contradicts the teachings of the temple. I comprehend what I comprehend better than you do and I know that it doesn't.

Adam and Eve knew how to have children before the fall.

CFR. Your turn now.

They were commanded to do so.

That doesn't necessarily mean they knew how, but I do believe that maybe they could have known without becoming mortal. Maybe by asking our Father to tell them how to do it as immortals do it.

They knew that it was required to fall in order to accomplish this task.

Make sure that your reference mentions them knowing how to do it before becoming mortal.

Knowledge of good and evil, although connected to having posterity, does not refer to their awareness of how to multiply and replenish the earth. Nor does "innocence" require ignorance of basic biology that has always existed.

Without knowledge of good and evil including how to have posterity how could they have known? And if you think they did know before becoming mortal how did they find out.

Cite references please or else jk could just as well call your thoughts speculation too.

[JLHPROF]

Be a little more specific than "that". Which part of what I said DO YOU THINK contradicts the teachings of the temple. I comprehend what I comprehend better than you do and I know that it doesn't.

CFR. Your turn now.

That doesn't necessarily mean they knew how, but I do believe that maybe they could have known without becoming mortal. Maybe by asking our Father to tell them how to do it as immortals do it.

Make sure that your reference mentions them knowing how to do it before becoming mortal.

Without knowledge of good and evil including how to have posterity how could they have known? And if you think they did know before becoming mortal how did they find out.

Cite references please or else jk could just as well call your thoughts speculation too.

 

Can't quote the endowment.  You know better than that.

But from the moment of Eve's creation Adam is commanded to multiply and replenish the earth.  He is told he will have joy in his posterity.  Eve is called the Mother of all living.  Michael (who is Adam) planned the fall with the other Gods including having posterity and knowing good from evil.

ALL before the fall.  ALL clearly described in the temple.

I find it hard to believe in any way that they were told all of that, specifically placed under covenant, and had no idea what it meant or how to bring it about until the fall, especially since the fall was the plan from the premortal existence

 

Knowledge of good and evil are also clearly described in the endowment, and have nothing to do with reproduction but is about recognizing opposites.

 

Are you seriously stating that the Gods simultaneously commanded them to violate the prohibition on the fruit and have children AND commanded them not to partake.  Are the Gods so confused that they command opposite actions at the same time?

Edited September 26, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Ahab]

Can't quote the endowment. You know better than that.

I also know better than to believe that what I comprehend on this issue is in conflict with our Church teachings, regardless of if you think so.

[Robert F. Smith]

 

 

I suspect that we are dealing with a multiverse or infinite dimensions.

 

I kind of think that's the case too. But I think we'll never know for sure.

 

...............................................

Once we reach the other side, "never" may no longer be applicable.

[Tacenda]

To show Ahab how it is done, I used site:lds.org "Adam", "Eve", and "children".

Came up with this:

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-6-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng

Can't quote because on ipad, but it states they couldn't have children because they weren't mortal, not because they didn't know how.

Are there any Bible references that say they couldn't have children in the garden? Some EV's believe they could. Edited September 26, 2015 by Tacenda

[Rivers]

Is there any Bible references that say they couldn't have children in the garden? Some EV's believe they could.

There's no Bible verses that say it but is logical conclusion to draw from the fact that they didn't realize they were naked until they ate the fruit.  Its a lot like being a kid and being ok to run around naked.  The eating of the forbidden fruit can be analagous to growing up and going through puberty.

[ERayR]

There's no Bible verses that say it but is logical conclusion to draw from the fact that they didn't realize they were naked until they ate the fruit.  Its a lot like being a kid and being ok to run around naked.  The eating of the forbidden fruit can be analagous to growing up and going through puberty.

 

The forbidden fruit is not about reproduction.  It was the knowledge of good and evil.

[bluebell]

Are there any Bible references that say they couldn't have children in the garden? Some EV's believe they could.

 

If i remember right, there aren't.  This is what it says under the Fall of Adam and Eve in the LDS bible dictionary (which is not considered doctrine of course)-

 

"The process by which mankind became mortal on this earth. The event is recorded in Gen. 2–4 and Moses 3–4. The Fall of Adam and Eve is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man. Before the Fall, there were no sin, no death, and no children. With the eating of the “forbidden fruit,” Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, and death became a part of life. Adam became the “first flesh” upon the earth (Moses 3:7), meaning that he and Eve were the first to become mortal. After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal. Adam’s Fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind (Hel. 14:16–17).

 

The Fall was no surprise to the Lord. It was a necessary step in the progress of man, and provisions for a Savior had been made even before the Fall had occurred. Jesus Christ came to atone for the Fall of Adam and also for man’s individual sins.

 

Latter-day revelation supports the biblical account of the Fall, showing that it was a historical event that literally occurred in the history of man. Many points in latter-day revelation are also clarified that are not discernible from the Bible. Among other things it makes clear that the Fall is a blessing and that Adam and Eve should be honored in their station as the first parents of the earth. Significant references are 2 Ne. 2:15–26; 9:6–21; Mosiah 3:11–16; Alma 22:12–14; 42:2–15; D&C 29:34–44; Moses 5:9–13. "

Edited September 26, 2015 by bluebell

[carbon dioxide]

There's no Bible verses that say it but is logical conclusion to draw from the fact that they didn't realize they were naked until they ate the fruit.  Its a lot like being a kid and being ok to run around naked.  The eating of the forbidden fruit can be analagous to growing up and going through puberty.

In addition, reproduction without physical death would lead to a very overcrowded planet.  Plus suppose that Adam and Eve did not eat of the forbidden fruit but some of their kids did.  That would have created another kind of mess.

[carbon dioxide]

If a LDS person does not believe in a literal Adam, they can't believe in a literal Michael since they are the same.  One would wonder if Gabriel was literal or not.

[bluebell]

If a LDS person does not believe in a literal Adam, they can't believe in a literal Michael since they are the same.  One would wonder if Gabriel was literal or not.

 

It also causes trouble for future events prophesied in the bible and D&C, such as the gathering of the 144,000 prior to the second coming.  Adam is supposed to lead that.

[JLHPROF]

The forbidden fruit is not about reproduction.  It was the knowledge of good and evil.

 

Exactly.  It is ridiculous to assume the Gods commanded Adam and Eve: -

"to multiply and replenish the earth, but oops, we forgot, you can't/don't know how and we just forbade you from the act that would allow it.  Oh well, I guess all these premortal spirits aren't getting any physical bodies now."

 

Adam and Eve knew how to have kids.  They were always going to "partake of the fruit" and become mortal so they could fulfill the plan to multiply and replenish the earth and have joy in their posterity.

This was the plan agreed upon in the premortal councils of which Michael/Adam was a prominent figure.  Both the PoGP and the temple are clear.

Edited September 26, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Ahab]

The forbidden fruit is not about reproduction. It was the knowledge of good and evil.

And how exactly would you classify knowledge of reproduction? And knowledge regarding anything else that is good or evil or could be used for good or evil? And knowledge of what good is and what evil is and all or anything that is good or evil?

Some people talk about knowledge of good and evil without seeming to know what they are talking about, but those words mean something and they refer to anything related to what is good and what is evil.

You have been asked for references. Provide them or leave the thread.

I did and I'm leaving anyway. Entirely.

Bye bye.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Ahab

[Steve-o]

And how exactly would you classify knowledge of reproduction? And knowledge regarding anything else that is good or evil or could be used for good or evil? And knowledge of what good is and what evil is and all or anything that is good or evil?

Some people talk about knowledge of good and evil without seeming to know what they are talking about, but those words mean something and they refer to anything related to what is good and what is evil.

I'm confused . I have not seen a reference and it sounds like you don't understand what a reference is. Is that possible? I don't mean that to be rude but I really can't understand why you think your personal understanding of the gospel is something we would have access to and agree with.

I don't know if Adam and Eve were real or not. If they were I dong know if they had knowledge of sex or not. I don't think we can know that. Regardless, I believe the atonement of Christ but as Elder Holland suggested, maybe I don't fully comprehend it. But does any one really comprehend the atonement fully?

[Robert F. Smith]

They don't give Nobel Prizes in Medicine for dead ideas.

 

Not many scientists subscribe to the Panspermia Model. It is an interesting possibility however. I like the idea that life exists throughout the universe. Now if we could just find a rock with the remains of a complex living cell from another planet. So far all we have is a few relatively simple carbon based compounds, that may have come from Mars. If Mars had life on it it died out over a billion years ago. When life on this planet was pretty simple single celled organisms.

Actually, the reason why Neil deGrasse Tyson spent far more time on panspermia than archebiosis in the Cosmos series is because that is the currently most likely model.

 

One might better examine the even more avant garde genetic-engineering model in Ridley Scott's recent "Prometheus" and the forthcoming "Prometheus II."  See this opening scene of the former, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKanXRERgoY .

[bcuzbcuz]

Actually, the reason why Neil deGrasse Tyson spent far more time on panspermia than archebiosis in the Cosmos series is because that is the currently most likely model.

  .

Really? Or is it that panspermia ideas make more entertaining television. It doesn´t just allow for facts but lets the fantasy run free. Archebiosis, on the other hand, has been argued for and against adnauseum and very little of it makes good TV.

Just take a look at how Julie Rowe, "A Greater Tomorrow", has taken the idea of panspermia and has the earth´s billion year history imported from space. She not only propogates the idea that layers of stone were flown in from outer space but even the fossilized remains of the dinosaurs.