Belief In Literal Adam/eve Required To Comprehend Atonement

[jkwilliams]

Ahab, please, I beg you. Stop saying you've provided references when you haven't.

 

You have yet to answer the CFR. If you can't answer, please withdraw the comment. It's pretty normal to have an engrained idea that makes perfect sense to us because we've always been taught a certain way, even though there is no documentation. I think this is the boat you're in. I don't doubt you really believe what you wrote or that you were taught what you wrote, but to me it is pure speculation. I'll be very interested to read your references if you have them. If not, it may be time to give up the fight.

Yep. I understand his position, and I have no doubt it makes sense to him. I don't need him to explain it again. But through all his posts, there hasn't been a single reference.

[bluebell]

If Christ wasn't born fallen, then he would have been incapable of death. If he wasn't born fallen it wouldn't have been a condescension to come into mortality. He was born into a fallen world and was therefore subject to the fall just as we are. The difference is he was also God so he was able to overcome that fall whereas we can't without him.

The reason that Christ was capable of performing the Atonement was because He was not subject to either spiritual or physical death. This was not just because He was half divine. It was because He never sinned and therefore never suffered spiritual death.

If birth is a spiritual death--if birth is an individual fall--Christ would not have been able to Atone for anyone. He would have been under the same condemnation as the rest of us.

[Ahab]

No. I'm 50 years old, and that thought never crossed my mind until you posted your speculation in this thread. Eve was given to Adam as a wife and help meet for him. There would have been nothing remotely evil about them having sexual relations as husband and wife.

I'll put it this way: If there had been anything good or evil about Eve being a help meet for Adam he wouldn't have known it, and she wouldn't have either. Not without knowledge of good and evil. They were just there in Eden, in the same place together, but without knowledge of good or evil. Without knowledge of any good or evil in any of them. No knowledge of good or evil or love or hate or virtue or sin. Blah blah world. With everything around them, which had been called good by our Father, they had no knowledge of good and/or evil.

Nonsense. We know how to breathe, eat, sleep, walk, and talk long before we have any conception of good or evil.

Yes but that as you correctly state doesn't require any knowledge of good or evil. And you are thinking in terms of being mortal. Immortals won't die when they don't eat, otherwise they wouldn't be immortal. They can eat if they want to but without knowledge of good and evil eating wouldn't do them any good. They wouldn't even know if it was good or bad for them, and they wouldn't even know what that meant. Bad means it would kill them? They'd have to try it before they would know if it would and by doing so they would become mortal. "Yep I see that it's bad now. Oops. Too bad I didn't know before I ate it,"

If we take the story of the Fall literally, Adam and Eve knew how to do a lot of things before they learned the difference between good and evil. Your saying that they didn't know how to use their sexual organs is just your speculation, nothing more.

No it's a lot morw than that. It is good common sense from a correct comprehension of the meaning of the words in our Church teachings. The ones I referred you to which you do not recognize as good which is why you reject them.

Once again, you've had an opportunity to provide a reference to support your interpretation, and you have declined to do so.

More rejection from you. Typical you.

[HappyJackWagon]

The reason that Christ was capable of performing the Atonement was because He was not subject to either spiritual or physical death. This was not just because He was half divine. It was because He never sinned and therefore never suffered spiritual death.

If birth is a spiritual death--if birth is an individual fall--Christ would not have been able to Atone for anyone. He would have been under the same condemnation as the rest of us.

I don't understand. Christ wasn't subject to physical death? It could also be argued that he suffered spiritual death as he suffered in the garden and on the Cross, not because of personal sin, but because he took our sins upon him, thus separating him temporarily from God. He felt alone. He even cried out in the anguish of his lonliness.

 

Holland said he didn't fully understand the mechanics of the atonement. Without that full understanding it would seem premature to declare a definite mechanical application of the fall and atonement.

[bluebell]

It seems to me the Church and the scriptures are wrong about a number of things, just like the rest of us. I don't see a need to accept it just because someone tells me to.

 

 

I agree. I'm not talking about accepting something just because someone tell's you it's right.  

 

You must have some reason for accepting the beliefs that you hold as being true though, right?  What authority do your beliefs rest on, if not the prophets and scriptures? Personal revelation?  Just your own ideas of what seems reasonable?  Again, i'm not trying to be snarky, i just want to know where your beliefs come from-what is the standard that you use to decide whether or not your beliefs are correct?

 

From my perspective, the standard seems to be-if they make sense to me they are correct.  If they don't make sense to me then it's false.  Is my perspective wrong?

[HappyJackWagon]

I'll put it this way: If there had been anything good or evil about Eve being a help meet for Adam he wouldn't have known it, and she wouldn't have either. Not without knowledge of good and evil. They were just there in Eden, in the same place together, but without knowledge of good or evil. Without knowledge of any good or evil in any of them. No knowledge of good or evil or love or hate or virtue or sin. Blah blah world. With everything around them, which had been called good by our Father, they had no knowledge of good and/or evil.

Yes but that as you correctly state doesn't require any knowledge of good or evil. And you are thinking in terms of being mortal. Immortals won't die when they don't eat, otherwise they wouldn't be immortal. They can eat if they want to but without knowledge of good and evil eating wouldn't do them any good. They wouldn't even know if it was good or bad for them, and they wouldn't even know what that meant. Bad means it would kill them? They'd have to try it before they would know if it would and by doing so they would become mortal. "Yep I see that it's bad now. Oops. Too bad I didn't know before I ate it,"

No it's a lot morw than that. It is good common sense from a correct comprehension of the meaning of the words in our Church teachings. The ones I referred you to which you do not recognize as good which is why you reject them.

More rejection from you. Typical you.

Could you please provide a reference? I don't need your reasoning. You've already shared that. What you haven't shared is a reference that documents the doctrinal teaching you are putting forth

[bluebell]

I don't understand. Christ wasn't subject to physical death? It could also be argued that he suffered spiritual death as he suffered in the garden and on the Cross, not because of personal sin, but because he took our sins upon him, thus separating him temporarily from God. He felt alone. He even cried out in the anguish of his lonliness.

 

Holland said he didn't fully understand the mechanics of the atonement. Without that full understanding it would seem premature to declare a definite mechanical application of the fall and atonement.

 

No, He wasn't subject to physical death.  Nothing could kill Him, to die He had to choose to die.  That's what the scriptures mean when they say that He laid down His life.  Death was a choice for Him, not an inevitability like it is for us.  

 

And you said that birth was the cause of spiritual (and physical) death, that birth is the event that brings about the Fall for every person.  Now, you are saying that it's not birth that causes the Fall, but sin so i'm confused.  Which is it?  In your belief, what is the Fall?

[Gray]

 

I suspect that we are dealing with a multiverse or infinite dimensions.

 

I kind of think that's the case too. But I think we'll never know for sure.

 

Yes, and what are "intellligences" anyhow, and what is this sequence of intelligence - spiritual body -- human body -- divine glory?  That may be the real evolving sequence, aided by already extant divinities.  Biological evolution, if it proves true, may be the least of our concerns.

 

Interesting ideas for sure. 

 

Or, it's what gods do, and we don't know why or how.

 

Archebiosis (abiogenesis) is a dead end so far, which is why so many scientists are preferring panspermia.  So much easier to put off that ultimate question.

 

Are a majority preferring panspermia? You're right, all it does is put off the question. A turtle beneath the turtle, if you will. 

 

Not that synthetic life will not be formed in the lab in coming years, but that tells us nothing about spontaneous generation of life, which still eludes science and technology.

 

I think the best we'll do with abiogenesis (archebiosis, you say?) is to confirm that it was possible under circumstances that existed on earth billions of years ago. None of the physical evidence of early transitional pseudo-life would have survived. At least I don't think it would. 

 

Edited September 25, 2015 by Gray

[jkwilliams]

Could you please provide a reference? I don't need your reasoning. You've already shared that. What you haven't shared is a reference that documents the doctrinal teaching you are putting forth

That is what I have been asking for. Perhaps he doesn't understand what is meant by a reference.

[Gray]

For the (4^th?) time I’m asking “How do you propose a defined state exists outside of an inducing event?” I am making this as generic as possible so as not to stay hung up on life science vs. scripture

 

-- This is not the same question as “Why are we mortal?” -- which answer must go further than, “We are mortal because the precipitating events were carried out by mortal life forms (another version of the useless phrase),” or, “Random events by non-living materials and forces induced mortal life” if a full comprehension of the Atonement is to be gained, which should go without saying since science can’t explain it.

 

I suppose your question goes back to the beginning of the universe, and why are the laws of the universe what they are? I don't know why all physical structures are destructible. But they are. The bonds between molecules are weak enough that they may be pulled apart with sufficient force. Thus all living things can die. The inducing event you're looking for is the genesis of this particular universe itself, with all its particular laws.

 

You'd need another inducing event to get immortality. Maybe a change to the fundamental properties of matter.  

 

The Atonement was envisioned and prepared by God before the foundation of the world as part of plan, but you’re saying it only came about in response to random events. This is hardly the route to a fuller comprehension.

 

Creation and order are emergent properties of the universe. I find that to be incredibly inspiring and holy, but I suppose that's off-topic.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Gray

[Gray]

It absolutely is relevant, just relevant as how we got atoned for--how we became mortal has everything to do with it (hint:agency).

 

What does someone else's agency have to do with you? Agency predates the garden, right?

[Calm]

Ahab, you need to provide a quote from someone in church leadership who defines things like you do. I would suggest using goggle with a site:lds.org filter and whatever keys terms you think will be used.

Should be multiple hits if your claim that this is church doctrine is true.

[Calm]

To show Ahab how it is done, I used site:lds.org "Adam", "Eve", and "children".

Came up with this:

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-6-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng

Can't quote because on ipad, but it states they couldn't have children because they weren't mortal, not because they didn't know how.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Calm

[HappyJackWagon]

No, He wasn't subject to physical death.  Nothing could kill Him, to die He had to choose to die.  That's what the scriptures mean when they say that He laid down His life.  Death was a choice for Him, not an inevitability like it is for us.  

 

And you said that birth was the cause of spiritual (and physical) death, that birth is the event that brings about the Fall for every person.  Now, you are saying that it's not birth that causes the Fall, but sin so i'm confused.  Which is it?  In your belief, what is the Fall?

Remember, I'm looking at this metaphorically, not literally. Spiritual death could be viewed as any separation from God. This would be true whether separation is a physical/spatial or caused by sin. Physical death is the death of the body. Both happen or become possible through birth into mortality.

[jkwilliams]

To show Ahab how it is done, I used site:lds.org "Adam", "Eve", and "children".

Came up with this:

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-6-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng

I did the same thing because I thought maybe I'd missed something in my 50 years in the church, but I couldn't find anything that supports Ahab's interpretation.

[Calm]

Spiritual death is separation from God. The scriptures teach of two sources of spiritual death. The first source is the Fall, and the second is our own disobedience. Spiritual death can be overcome through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to His gospel.

Additional Information

The Book of Mormon prophet Samuel taught, “All mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual” (Helaman 14:16). During our life on the earth, we are separated from God's presence. Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems everyone from this spiritual death. Samuel testified that the Savior's Resurrection “redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death. . . . Behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord” (Helaman 14:16-17). The prophet Lehi taught that because of the Atonement, “all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him” (2 Nephi 2:10).

Further spiritual death comes as a result of our own disobedience. Our sins make us unclean and unable to dwell in the presence of God (see Romans 3:23; Alma 12:12-16, 32; Helaman 14:18; Moses 6:57). Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ offers redemption from this spiritual death, but only when we exercise faith in Him, repent of our sins, and obey the principles and ordinances of the gospel (see Alma 13:27-30; Helaman 14:19; Articles of Faith 1:3).

https://www.lds.org/topics/death-spiritual?lang=eng

Edited September 25, 2015 by Calm

[Calm]

As descendants of Adam and Eve, all people inherit the effects of the Fall. In our fallen state, we are subject to opposition and temptation. When we give in to temptation, we are alienated from God, and if we continue in sin, we experience spiritual death, being separated from His presence. We are all subject to temporal death, which is the death of the physical body (see Alma 42:6-9; D&C 29:41-42).

The only way for us to be saved is for someone else to rescue us. We need someone who can satisfy the demands of justice—standing in our place to assume the burden of the Fall and to pay the price for our sins. Jesus Christ has always been the only one capable of making such a sacrifice.

From before the Creation of the earth, the Savior has been our only hope for “peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come” ( D&C 59:23).

Only He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again. From His mortal mother, Mary, He inherited the ability to die. From His immortal Father, He inherited the power to overcome death. He declared, “As the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself” ( John 5:26).

Only He could redeem us from our sins. God the Father gave Him this power (see Helaman 5:11). The Savior was able to receive this power and carry out the Atonement because He kept Himself free from sin: “He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them” ( D&C 20:22). Having lived a perfect, sinless life, He was free from the demands of justice. Because He had the power of redemption and because He had no debt to justice, he could pay the debt for those who repent.

Jesus's atoning sacrifice took place in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross at Calvary. In Gethsemane He submitted to the will of the Father and began to take upon Himself the sins of all people. He has revealed some of what He experienced as He paid the price for our sins:

“I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

“But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

“Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

“Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men” ( D&C 19:16-19; see also Luke 22:44; Mosiah 3:7).

The Savior continued to suffer for our sins when He allowed Himself to be crucified—“lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world” ( 1 Nephi 11:33).

On the cross, He allowed Himself to die. His body was then laid in a tomb until He was resurrected and became “the firstfruits of them that slept” ( 1 Corinthians 15:20). Through His death and Resurrection, He overcame physical death for us all.

Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged (see 2 Nephi 2:5-10; Helaman 14:15-17). Through the Savior's gift of mercy and redeeming grace, we will all receive the gift of immortality and live forever in glorified, resurrected bodies.

Although we are redeemed unconditionally from the universal effects of the Fall, we are accountable for our own sins. But we can be forgiven and cleansed from the stain of sin if we “apply the atoning blood of Christ” ( Mosiah 4:2). We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

https://www.lds.org/topics/atonement-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

Edited September 25, 2015 by Calm

[Calm]

In the Garden of Eden, God commanded, “Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Moses 3:16–17). Because Adam and Eve transgressed this command and partook of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they were cast out from the presence of the Lord (see D&C 29:40–41). In other words, they experienced spiritual death. They also became mortal—subject to physical death. This spiritual and physical death is called the Fall.

Additional Information

Our Fallen Condition

As descendants of Adam and Eve, we inherit a fallen condition during mortality (see Alma 42:5-9, 14). We are separated from the presence of the Lord and subject to physical death. We are also placed in a state of opposition, in which we are tested by the difficulties of life and the temptations of the adversary (see 2 Nephi 2:11-14; D&C 29:39; Moses 6:48-49).

In this fallen condition, we have a conflict within us. We are spirit children of God, with the potential to be “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4). However, “we are unworthy before [God]; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually” (Ether 3:2). We need to strive continually to overcome unrighteous passions and desires.

Repeating the words of an angel, King Benjamin said, “The natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam.” King Benjamin warned that in this natural, or fallen, state, each person will be an enemy to God forever “unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father” (Mosiah 3:19).

Benefits of the Fall

The Fall is an integral part of Heavenly Father's plan of salvation (see 2 Nephi 2:15-16; 9:6). It has a twofold direction—downward yet forward. In addition to introducing physical and spiritual death, it gave us the opportunity to be born on the earth and to learn and progress. Through our righteous exercise of agency and our sincere repentance when we sin, we can come unto Christ and, through His Atonement, prepare to receive the gift of eternal life. The prophet Lehi taught:

“If Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

“And [Adam and Eve] would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

“But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

“And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall” (2 Nephi 2:22-26; see also 2 Nephi 2:19-21, 27).

https://www.lds.org/topics/fall-of-adam?lang=eng

Edited September 25, 2015 by Calm

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall.

Bluebell- Try replacing Fall with Mortality to see what I'm trying to explain.  Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of mortality. Physical and spiritual death are natural conditions of mortality and a literal garden fall is unnecessary to explain those natural conditions of mortality.

[Calm]

But if one accepts the Fall, both mortality and being cut off from the Presence of God occurred because of the Fall. Prior to that mankind represented by Adam and Eve were not cut off from the Presence of God, Covenanted Man (Adam and Eve) walked with God.

[Calm]

[Though this was resolved earlier, I thought I'd post it anyway as long as I was in Gospel Topics)

Little Children and Baptism

From latter-day revelation, we know that little children are redeemed through the mercy of Jesus Christ. The Lord said, ”They cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me“ (see D&C 29:46–47). They are not to be baptized until they reach the age of accountability, which the Lord has revealed to be eight years of age (see D&C 68:27; Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 17:11). Anyone who claims that little children need baptism ”denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption“ (Moroni 8:20; see also verses 8–19, 21–24).

https://www.lds.org/topics/baptism?lang=eng

Edited September 25, 2015 by Calm

[HappyJackWagon]

But if one accepts the Fall, both mortality and being cut off from the Presence of God occurred because of the Fall. Prior to that mankind represented by Adam and Eve were not cut off from the Presence of God, Covenanted Man (Adam and Eve) walked with God.

That's circular. If we accept the fall then we know the effects of the fall occurred because of the fall. That doesn't work.

 

Prior to the separation from God, man was not separated from God. Also circular but it doesn't require one specific explanation (ie the garden fall). This would also be true by birth into mortality- leaving the presence of God to where we are cut off from his presence.

[Calm]

"If we accept the fall then we know the effects of the fall occurred because of the fall."

What I am saying is that LDS doctrine defines the effects of the Fall as mortality and being cut off from the presence of God.

If you don't agree with LDS doctrine and believe that mortality is a result of something else, then of course you don't need the Fall to explain it.

But then you don't have any necessary reason why the Atonement is required. You have to start setting up other assumptions about what the atonement means and its purposes are. Why is sin a "natural" consequnce of mortality, especially since we know there is one man, Jesus, who did not sin even though he was mortal. Therefore sin is not required of mortals...so why does it occur? Sin (not defining as doing wrong, but accountable doing wrong here) does not exist without law, so where and when were the first who received law so they then had the capacity/knowledge to know what breaking the law means. And if one can accept that one can be mortal and yet spiritually alive in Christ, again you lack a natural cause for spiritual death because everyone who is alive in Christ has also been born so it isn't being born that cuts us off from God.

I see no reason why the one set of assumptions should be inherently better than another...unless one wants to get to a particular comprehension/understanding of the Atonement. If you choose a different set, you will see the Atonement as something different.

All I see Elder Holland saying is that the correct understanding (set of assumptions) includes an actual Adam and Eve.

If you remove a fundamental assumption, your understanding will at best be incomplete. You may have an understanding that you personally see as working for you, but it will not be the correct one...at least in the view of LDS doctrine.

And to fully accept the Atonement and have it fully working in our lives, we will need that correct understanding, imo, because it works through a covenanted relationship. It is not something akin to a doctor-patient relationship where we can take a drug or be operated on and cured without having a clue what is going on. We can not be obedient to a law or keep a promise we are not aware of.

I don't believe we have the full set of assumptions...which will no longer be assumptions, but knowledge...that must be included to accept fully the Atonement in our lives. I believe that will come in the Spirit World as we learn more about the Endowment and what Covenant means eternally speaking and that is when we can be fully obedient and thus receive all the blessings that God desires to give us through our/his Covenant.

Like other gospel knowledge, one can progress without full understanding, but change and growth will be more effective if undertaken in the most correct way we have available to us.

Hope this makes sense and follows the conversation, been reading everything but lacking in quality sleep so may not be processing and this may turn into a good example of why incorrect understanding prevents comprehension.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Calm

[Ahab]

Could you please provide a reference? I don't need your reasoning. You've already shared that. What you haven't shared is a reference that documents the doctrinal teaching you are putting forth

A reference is something that refers to something and I have been referring to... and I have been telling everyone on this board... that my comments were in reference to the common and very basic doctrine in our Church of the knowledge of good and evil that Adam and Eve received by eating fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Those teachings are what I have been referring to. All of them collectively. Any and every reference in our Church teachings regarding that knowledge of good and evil. Not just in one place, like a particular book, chapter and verse or string of verses, and not just one or two conference addresses. I am referring to all of our teachings regarding that knowledge of good and evil. All of it that Adam and Eve gained by eating the fruit from that particular tree. Including the knowledge of the good and evil involving having children.

You are free to disagree and reject what I have been referring to and what those references mean but those are still the references that I am and have been referring to. The account in Genesis and the account in 1 Nephi and the account in Moses and the account in Abraham and the accounts in several sections of the book of Doctrines and Covenants and the other accounts referred to any and all conference addresses in our Church.

I'm not limiting myself to just one account. I am "referring" to all references on this issue that constitute the doctrines of our Church.

Sheesh. Stop falsely accusing me of not providing any references while I am referring to all of them.

[Ahab]

That is what I have been asking for. Perhaps he doesn't understand what is meant by a reference.

Or perhaps you don't, which seems a lot more likely to me considering how many times I have referred to our Church doctrine on this issue.