So What Is The Real Plan Of God. Or Is The Plan Of Salvation A Complete Disaster.

[JLHPROF]

1. Salvation vs Exaltation are two different things - basically everyone will get to hear the gospel and receive their salvation (resurrection) at some point in time whether in this life or the next.  Christ said as much and the Millennium give the opportunity to finish the work.
Exaltation is for those who are willing and able to live every law that makes God a God.  That is not everyone and never has been.  But it remains a matter of agency.

 

2. God's work and glory (to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man) doesn't end.  The atonement for sins comitted in this life doesn't cease to have an effect ever.  Those sins are paid for.  Period.  It is only a matter of waiting for people to accept that atonement according to their agency.

 

3. The plan of salvation (meaning resurrection) may end with this earth's temporal existence, but the progression of God's children is eternal and infinite.  And exaltation is never off the table as long as existence remains.  It is an issue of conforming to the law upon which the blessing is predicated.

 

Mormonism doesn't teach permanent hell or easy exaltation.  It is an ongoing process for all of eternity.

[Bobbieaware]

Again, each person is judged according to how they follow the light they receive. In other words, the spirit of the Lord will prompt people to act. In as much as they follow that spirit they will draw closer to God. It does not matter if they never heard of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, all people have the light of Christ, it will guide them. If they follow that light, at the end of this life they will find themselves prepared to receive the gospel in the next. If they have largely rejected the light of Christ they will find themselves trapped by their own choices in the spirit world.Sometimes even LDS get hung up on the letter of the law. We paint ourselves as more blessed because we have performed certain ordinances in this life. Such is not necessarily the case. On the other hand, those where were never offered the gospel here are not better off in the next. It all depends on how we, and they, follow the spirit of the Lord.

Based on what you say above, wouldn"t you agree that in practical terms there is no real need to have the true Gospel restored to the earth because there is enough of the light of God in each individual for the test of mortality to go forward? And if you are correct, one wonders why the Lord even bothered to restore the Gospel to the earth because the test of mortality, according to your thinking, proceeds just fine without the restored Church unnecessarily complicating things? So I would presume you believe the non-LDS Christians are correct when they say the LDS concept of the Gospel being preached to the dead is unnecessary because the time a human spends in the flesh is all that's needed to make a just and final determination as to whether he will or will not be saved?

Did not Lord tell Abraham he was going to send the preexistent spirits of men (those who keptt their first estate) to the earth to take on bodies, thereafter to be tested to "prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things the Lord their God shall command them?" So, according to your thinking, it would seem that if you are correct an ancient Mongol nomad, who roamed the plains of Mongolia in 600 BC, totally cut off from a knowledge of the prophets in the holy land, had enough of God's light and knowledge dwelling within him to be effectively be able to know and do all the things that the Lord expected of him?

I'm wondering if you realize your post validates the original posters suggestion that perhaps the restoration of Church in these latter-days has had very little beneficial impact on the world, and, if the number of active church members is an accurate guage of success, has, in large measure, thus far proven to be a failure?

[Sanpitch]

So many different opinions and guesses, does anyone know for sure?  Apparently not. 

[california boy]

Thanks for your comment.  And thanks for the comments above and those in this thread that have participated.  I guess the conclusion I am drawing is that the gospel of Jesus Christ restored to the earth in 1830 s almost a footnote.  It is of little relevance in the progression towards God and towards the Celestial Kingdom for billions of people.  The real plan of salvation for the vast majority of God's children was to listen to the light of Christ and through those subtle promptings learn to be a good person. We were suppose to figure all of this out on our own, through that light of Christ.   If they were raised in circumstances that taught them things contrary to the gospel, they will be judged with that taken into consideration.  Most will find religion outside the Church of Christ.  And that seems to be ok.  They will find joy in that but not as much joy as someone who finds the church of Christ.  Some will never find religion and may in fact never even believe in God.  That seems to be ok. All of that will be fixed in the next life.  All will have the opportunity to accept Christ and His atonement and repent of their sins.  When that acceptance happens is irrelevant (the parable of the sower)  The core lessons in life is who you are as a person, not what dogma you have embraced. That path they find in this life is in all likelihood the one they will keep going on after they die. This is the plan for the vast majority of mankind.  Whether one finds the gospel in this life or the next is irrelevant and unimportant.  Time, life, death, all blur together in importance.  One is not more important than the other.

 

Now there is this very small, statistically insignificant group of God's children that find the gospel, learn more knowledge and truth than the others, increase faster in intelligence because of the truths taught to that small group and progress further while on this life.  That intelligence rises with them in the next life. They are an anomaly.  Some have suggested that they are the noble and great ones from the pre existence, so that is why they get this special treatment.  This small group will be the core group for doing the ordinance work for the 99.9% who lived without the gospel.  They are like the bakers yeast for the rest of mankind.

 

Would we all pretty much agree with this?  If not, add some parts to this statement that you feel clarifies the plan of salvation for the majority of God's children.  I hope you can all see the bits and pieces that you have contributed to what I wrote.  I wonder if it is possible to come up with a statement that all can agree with.

[JLHPROF]

 

Thanks for your comment.  And thanks for the comments above and those in this thread that have participated.  I guess the conclusion I am drawing is that the gospel of Jesus Christ restored to the earth in 1830 s almost a footnote.  It is of little relevance in the progression towards God and towards the Celestial Kingdom for billions of people.  The real plan of salvation for the vast majority of God's children was to listen to the light of Christ and through those subtle promptings learn to be a good person. We were suppose to figure all of this out on our own, through that light of Christ.   If they were raised in circumstances that taught them things contrary to the gospel, they will be judged with that taken into consideration.  Most will find religion outside the Church of Christ.  And that seems to be ok.  They will find joy in that but not as much joy as someone who finds the church of Christ.  Some will never find religion and may in fact never even believe in God.  That seems to be ok. All of that will be fixed in the next life.  All will have the opportunity to accept Christ and His atonement and repent of their sins.  When that acceptance happens is irrelevant (the parable of the sower)  The core lessons in life is who you are as a person, not what dogma you have embraced. That path they find in this life is in all likelihood the one they will keep going on after they die. This is the plan for the vast majority of mankind.  Whether one finds the gospel in this life or the next is irrelevant and unimportant.  Time, life, death, all blur together in importance.  One is not more important than the other.

 

Now there is this very small, statistically insignificant group of God's children that find the gospel, learn more knowledge and truth than the others, increase faster in intelligence because of the truths taught to that small group and progress further while on this life.  That intelligence rises with them in the next life. They are an anomaly.  Some have suggested that they are the noble and great ones from the pre existence, so that is why they get this special treatment.  This small group will be the core group for doing the ordinance work for the 99.9% who lived without the gospel.  They are like the bakers yeast for the rest of mankind.

 

 

BLUE = Yup

RED = Nope

[Tacenda]

You might take that with a dash of salt, they don't always turn out as expected. My granddad's blessing said he would live until, "Christ shall appear with his saints....." "And if thou silt prepare thyself thou shall be might and strong in the Lord. So much that the wicked shall fear and tremble and go away for fear thou might strike them with the power of God. The humble shall rejoice exceedingly and draw near to receive they blessing."

He served a mission and did everything right but got kicked in the head by a horse and died of infection in 1920 at the age of about 46 years old.

Incredible man, whom I hope to meet in the next life.

[rodheadlee]

Since the time of Christ, the gospel has not even been on the earth for most of the time, except in corrupt forms at best.  Then in 1830 the gospel was restored to the earth once again.  But since the founding of the church, the percentage of people in the world who have found the gospel and embraced it is statistically .000001% or some other incredibly small number.  To claim that joining the church is the path that leads God's children back to eternal life means that the plan of salvation was laid out for a VERY small tiny group of people that are hardly a blip on the screen.  And of that tiny blip, how many are even attending church?

 

So the only obvious conclusion one could possibly draw is that the Plan of Salvation laid out in the pre existence is either a complete and utter failure or that plan of finding the gospel in this life and working out one's salvation was only met for a tiny tiny fraction of God's children.  So what about the other 99.99999% of God's children? It seems like a lot of work to create the earth and run all of us through this process for so few tiny results.  The vast majority of people never even make it to the starting line.  Heck, they never even hear the message of where the starting gate is.  They are born, live their lives and die with no knowledge of this wonderful plan.

 

So what is the real plan of God?  Was this whole process developed just so that after men die, they can be put in a place and taught the gospel then?  Is that the plan?  Was finding the gospel on earth even a part of the plan?  What do you think is the "real" plan of God.  Exactly how will the majority of God's children have a chance at exaltation?  If it is all about the next life and opportunities to hear the gospel there, then why even bother with spending a lifetime on earth?  What are your thoughts?  Is the church statistically even that important in the whole scheme of things?  

You have a lot of damn gall criticizing the Plan of Salvation after wadding yours up and throwing it in the trash.

[CV75]

 

Thanks for your comment.  And thanks for the comments above and those in this thread that have participated.  I guess the conclusion I am drawing is that the gospel of Jesus Christ restored to the earth in 1830 s almost a footnote.  It is of little relevance in the progression towards God and towards the Celestial Kingdom for billions of people.

***

Would we all pretty much agree with this?

The success of the plan of salvation is not determined by whether or when everyone receives exaltation, but in that Christ fulfilled the Father’s will so that everyone has a choice in receiving it. By extension, the success of the earthly kingdom or the Church is not determined by whether or when everyone joins it in their earth life, but in that Christ (who heads His Church) exercises the keys through His servants so that each soul among the billions of living and dead has a choice in joining the Church of the Firstborn.

 

I think the statement here should be reworked to reflect that basic premise.

[VideoGameJunkie]

So does the church put pressure on Mission Presidents and missionaries if they don't have enough converts or track enough sort of like a sales business? With all the inactives and people leaving the church or just joining in South America for church storehouse and needs and then go inactive (ask Bishops in Brazil), does the church look at missionary work as a sales business?

[Deborah]

I'm sure this has been mentioned but all have the Light of Christ and can choose to do good or evil. The fact is the Gospel was restored in its fullness and with the restoration of the Priesthood and temples the gospel and its ordinances can be brought to all those who have lived.. Remember it is also being taught in the post mortal world. The important thing was establishing once again the ordinances and power to bring it to all the world, both living and dead.

[VideoGameJunkie]

The sacrament is so important because we can renew our baptism covenants if we've sinned to be worthy again. Does it work the same way with temple covenants in an endowment ceremony? If you go through the temple session and then fall and sin, can you go back and renew your temple covenants just like you do with taking the sacrament?

[Teancum]

I second that emotion.

 

 

This does not surprise me either. But guess what Robert. Other people of faith at least believe they have as good of a path to God as Mormons do and they may think Mormons are missing out on lots joy.  In your 74 years of life that you so often love to refer to have you thought much about this?  Oh and by they way many agnostics and atheists experience joy in life as well as much or at times even more than Mormons as they are simply amazed at the fortune of perhaps what the cosmos have allowed them to experience.

 

Mormons DO NOT have the monopoly on joy and wonder. It is a wide and wondrous world and universe out there even without Mormonism.

[Teancum]

Ethnocentricity is judging another culture by the values of my own.

 

By the definition you are trying to jam in my saying that Hindus do not serve the equivalent of Mormon 2 year full-time missions is ethnocentric. I am saying that we experience something they do not. This is not a condescending position.

 

 

Uh yea it is condescending.   Mormons actually excel and that quite well.  You think because Mormons have the only true church and are the only ones that really have access to the "gift of the Holy Ghost" that they have some more special and exceeding joy,

 

News flash for you.... they don't.

[Teancum]

You have a lot of damn gall criticizing the Plan of Salvation after wadding yours up and throwing it in the trash.

 

 

Oh really?  Is you so called plan of salvation above questions  and challenges?

[Teancum]

So many different opinions and guesses, does anyone know for sure?  Apparently not. 

 

No nobody really knows in spite of so many here that insist they do.

[Teancum]

I'm sure this has been mentioned but all have the Light of Christ and can choose to do good or evil. The fact is the Gospel was restored in its fullness and with the restoration of the Priesthood and temples the gospel and its ordinances can be brought to all those who have lived.. Remember it is also being taught in the post mortal world. The important thing was establishing once again the ordinances and power to bring it to all the world, both living and dead.

 

 

The fact is what you claim is a FACT is really not a fact.

[RevTestament]

The sacrament is so important because we can renew our baptism covenants if we've sinned to be worthy again. Does it work the same way with temple covenants in an endowment ceremony? If you go through the temple session and then fall and sin, can you go back and renew your temple covenants just like you do with taking the sacrament?

Renewing your covenant is more like remembering your covenant imho. Sin doesn't necessarily break a covenant, so a weak moment of sin doesn't necessarily mean that you need to "renew" your temple covenants. Repentance just puts you back on the path of living your covenants. Sin is to break a commandment. Covenants are not commandments but promises we've made. Hope that helps

[The Nehor]

Uh yea it is condescending.   Mormons actually excel and that quite well.  You think because Mormons have the only true church and are the only ones that really have access to the "gift of the Holy Ghost" that they have some more special and exceeding joy,

 

News flash for you.... they don't.

 

I don't believe everything the news says.

[Deborah]

The fact is what you claim is a FACT is really not a fact.

 

Depends on who you ask. Obviously you don't believe it.

[Deborah]

Mormons DO NOT have the monopoly on joy and wonder. It is a wide and wondrous world and universe out there even without Mormonism.

 

Really? You may be surprised to know that the leaders of the church have been teaching this very thing for years. Boyd Packer years ago talked about the Lord raising up good people to inspire others in many settings to live better lives.

 

In my view the purpose of the organization of the church was not to have a monopoly on joy and wonder, but to give people the opportunity in this life to receive ordinances which will enable them to progress further. Joseph Smith always believed in letting others live according to their conscience and didn't only support that in words but in deeds by helping other churches with their buildings or meetings. Just as the church does today.

[janderich]

Based on what you say above, wouldn"t you agree that in practical terms there is no real need to have the true Gospel restored to the earth because there is enough of the light of God in each individual for the test of mortality to go forward? And if you are correct, one wonders why the Lord even bothered to restore the Gospel to the earth because the test of mortality, according to your thinking, proceeds just fine without the restored Church unnecessarily complicating things? So I would presume you believe the non-LDS Christians are correct when they say the LDS concept of the Gospel being preached to the dead is unnecessary because the time a human spends in the flesh is all that's needed to make a just and final determination as to whether he will or will not be saved?

Hi Boobieware, this world is in desperate need of further light and knowledge poured down from the heavens. Isn't this obvious based on all the war, hatred, and immorality that pervades the earth? The gospel as given by the LDS church offers that to the human race.

But works of the law alone will never bring a man to God, as the Lord himself testifies, "Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works" (D&C 22:2). Ordinances point the way, but each person must enter in through covenants and reception of the Holy Spirit of promise. So is it really surprising that God judges a man's time on earth according to the spirit he has received and acted upon? And so if I speak of the deadness of the law I feel I am in good company for Nephi testified of the same: 

Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unot that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was give. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be odne away" (2 Ne 25:27)

 

Did not Lord tell Abraham he was going to send the preexistent spirits of men (those who keptt their first estate) to the earth to take on bodies, thereafter to be tested to "prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things the Lord their God shall command them?" So, according to your thinking, it would seem that if you are correct an ancient Mongol nomad, who roamed the plains of Mongolia in 600 BC, totally cut off from a knowledge of the prophets in the holy land, had enough of God's light and knowledge dwelling within him to be effectively be able to know and do all the things that the Lord expected of him?

Of course. The Lord does not expect a man to do more than he is able. Again Nephi says, "...for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them" (1 Ne 3:7). Where there is no way to accomplish the task the Lord does not command it to be done.

 

I'm wondering if you realize your post validates the original posters suggestion that perhaps the restoration of Church in these latter-days has had very little beneficial impact on the world, and, if the number of active church members is an accurate guage of success, has, in large measure, thus far proven to be a failure?

The impact of the CoJCoLDS has of course had very little impact on the world as far as numbers of converts. However, this does not represent a failure, it is simply fact. But it is also a fact that from these small beginnings the gospel will roll forward until all nations kindreds, tongues and people will hear and accept the truth in their hearts.

[Bobbieaware]

Hi Boobieware, this world is in desperate need of further light and knowledge poured down from the heavens. Isn't this obvious based on all the war, hatred, and immorality that pervades the earth? The gospel as given by the LDS church offers that to the human race.

But works of the law alone will never bring a man to God, as the Lord himself testifies, "Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works" (D&C 22:2). Ordinances point the way, but each person must enter in through covenants and reception of the Holy Spirit of promise. So is it really surprising that God judges a man's time on earth according to the spirit he has received and acted upon? And so if I speak of the deadness of the law I feel I am in good company for Nephi testified of the same:

Of course. The Lord does not expect a man to do more than he is able. Again Nephi says, "...for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them" (1 Ne 3:7). Where there is no way to accomplish the task the Lord does not command it to be done.

The impact of the CoJCoLDS has of course had very little impact on the world as far as numbers of converts. However, this does not represent a failure, it is simply fact. But it is also a fact that from these small beginnings the gospel will roll forward until all nations kindreds, tongues and people will hear and accept the truth in their hearts.

Hello again! Not much time to write now, but how does the following from the prophet Joseph Smith fit into your "our time in the flesh -- with or without the Gospel -- is enough for God to render a just final judgement" paradigm?

"As far as we degenerate from God, we descend to the devil and lose knowledge, and without knowledge we cannot be saved...A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth. Hence we need revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of the things of God." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 217)

.. And does the following quote from apostle Neal A. Maxwell fit into your paradigm as well?

"Yet, do people who have been wicked and agnostic, when they pass through the veil of death, suddenly and fully realize that there is, in spite of their earlier skepticism, life beyond the grave? Do they thus have an advantage over those who have had to develop faith in mortality concerning that prospect? If, for instance, the same attitudes with which we die persist, then there will be no automatic or immediate flip-flop into a totally different way of thinking. Such can occur there, just as it does here, upon our accepting the gospel and responding with both faith and repentance (Alma 34:34). Again, our existence in the spirit world is part of the mortal sector of our Father's plan which culminates with the Judgment and the Resurrection." (The Promise of Discipleship. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 2001, p. 111)

Edited September 19, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[VideoGameJunkie]

Rev, so is it like 10 times worse breaking a covenant than breaking a commandment?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Also, why is the Book of Mormon considered the single most important book of scripture, more than the Bible, and Doctrine and Covenants, where it's the Bible that talks about the beginning and Jesus life, and D&C talks about everything relevant to us today about how our church is run and temple marriage and modern revelation. What is it about the Book of Mormon that makes the apostles say read this 1 book it's super important. Our sacrament meeting spent the last 2 months with talks about nothing but the Book of Mormon and it's importance. So what actually about it is so important? The many wars? Or just the fact that we got it from golden plates which were written down on and passed down on then buried and taken back by the Angel Moroni never to be seen again. I'm just asking what makes the Book of Mormon number 1. We're always told by prophets and GAs to read through the Book of Mormon. So many times they say this. We're never told to read through Doctrine and Covenants.

Edited September 19, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie

[janderich]

Hello again! Not much time to write now, but how does the following from the prophet Joseph Smith fit into your "our time in the flesh -- with or without the Gospel -- is enough for God to render a just final judgement" paradigm?

"As far as we degenerate from God, we descend to the devil and lose knowledge, and without knowledge we cannot be saved...A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth. Hence we need revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of the things of God." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 217)

.. And does the following quote from apostle Neal A. Maxwell fit into your paradigm as well?

"Yet, do people who have been wicked and agnostic, when they pass through the veil of death, suddenly and fully realize that there is, in spite of their earlier skepticism, life beyond the grave? Do they thus have an advantage over those who have had to develop faith in mortality concerning that prospect? If, for instance, the same attitudes with which we die persist, then there will be no automatic or immediate flip-flop into a totally different way of thinking. Such can occur there, just as it does here, upon our accepting the gospel and responding with both faith and repentance (Alma 34:34). Again, our existence in the spirit world is part of the mortal sector of our Father's plan which culminates with the Judgment and the Resurrection." (The Promise of Discipleship. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 2001, p. 111)

Note: not final judgement. Final judgement occurs just before the resurrection. As we have discussed, people will need to hear and accept the gospel in the spirit world. Edited September 19, 2015 by janderich