So What Is The Real Plan Of God. Or Is The Plan Of Salvation A Complete Disaster.

[Teancum]

I have heard this and I don't believe a word of it. It is so defeatist. Not having the gospel may save you some pain but it cuts you off from joys as well.

 

 

What joys does it cut you off from?

[california boy]

i can certainly see that question as being valid.

 

as for me, my answer is because the end goal is still the same - John 17:3.  We can't do that unless we get about the business of evangelizing.  What's more, is that there are blessings to be had in the here and now.  there is work to be done.  people to teach and service and minister to. 

 

i know we're venturing into "are you saying someone else's relationship with God without the Gospel is somehow less than yours?!" territory and that's not really a fair comparison because i have no idea how to quantify mine vs someone else's.  i know mine today is better than it was of yesteryear.  i have a high degree of confidence someone else's will be better tomorrow than it is today if they gain a testimony of the Restored Gospel.  so i do missionary work.

 

Fair enough. I am just pointing out that the gospel is effecting only a very minute part of mankind.  Perhaps it is because missionary work and people joining the church makes such a difference in their lives is what, from my perspective, makes waiting until the next life to receive the gospel seem so strange.  It seems that is the way the plan of salvation has worked out.

[CV75]

I am not quite sure I understand what you are saying.  Are you saying that the plan was never that the vast majority of God's children would ever hear the gospel.  That the plan was for most of God's children to wander throughout their mortal existencenot knowing what this life was for or about?

 

And your second point, are you suggesting that through the fault of others, later generations would be forced into this unknowing condition?  Their earthly experience was based on the lack of faithfulness of past generations?  And that failure occurred very quickly in the history of the world?  That is how the plan played out???

I’m saying the plan was designed to address any scenario that could possibly play out according to Adam and Eve’s and subsequently their posterity’s individual and interacting agency in this world (and any other the Lord has organized). Depending on many factors, any world could have more or fewer, most or (as you are describing we see here) hardly any people finding the Gospel in mortality.

 

Of course the wickedness of others can deny later generations knowledge of the Gospel. This happens all the time in scripture. It is the problem with wicked traditions of the fathers, with dwindling in unbelief, etc. The Great Apostasy is a good example. The Book of Mormon speaks quite a bit about this.

 

The plan is that God’s children exercise and develop agency with a Savior provided to help them when they fail or lack a means to exercise and develop agency. Agency can be exercised in a myriad of ways, and we can see how it has affected the presence of the Gospel in this world’s history.

 

As far as our world is concerned, I agree that many live their entire mortal lives without knowing the Gospel. This isn’t necessarily their own fault, but the only way the Gospel is taken out of the scene (whether a life, a home, a nation, a planet, etc.) is through unbelief, so at some point that unbelief was expressed by someone along the way in order for someone else to be denied the Gospel.

 

So I'm talking more about how our world's net human behavior has played out thus far, and how the plan helps people get or the Lord set things right.

[Mars]

Fair enough. I am just pointing out that the gospel is effecting only a very minute part of mankind.  Perhaps it is because missionary work and people joining the church makes such a difference in their lives is what, from my perspective, makes waiting until the next life to receive the gospel seem so strange.  It seems that is the way the plan of salvation has worked out.

 

understandable.

[california boy]

another thought:

 

california boy, is it fair to characterize your question like so:

 

the church, if it is what it claims to be, and is meant to reach people before they die, is not reaching very many people.  they are going without the Gospel message while on the earth and the missionary effort is largely failing.  the church ought to have more people accepting it and being reached by it, to evidence divine sanction of its claims.

 

?

 

I am not questioning the claims of the church.  It seems that their claim is all mankind really has when it comes to some kind of plan of salvation.  What I am wondering about really is if the plan of salvation is best started while here on earth, why has that goal been such a failure throughout history.  It is such a failure that it makes me wonder if that is really the plan at all.  Perhaps the plan all along is for people to wander aimlessly while here on earth, attaching themselves to false dogma, being influenced by the societies own traditions and then only receiving the instructions of why we are put on earth and where we are headed after they die.  It is a little more complicated than the missionary work largely failing.  That would only be true if we, all of God's children were suppose to be taught the gospel plan while they were here on earth.

 

I have no idea why God decided to wait until after most are dead to begin the teaching process and tell them why they were here on earth and what they should be centering their lives on.  "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways."  That appears to be true.

[The Nehor]

What joys does it cut you off from?

 

The joy of the full experience of the Holy Ghost, the understanding of your eternal destiny to help you find meaning in this life, the love of God, etc.

[Teancum]

Haha, it does seem like an avoidance response would be advisable.  Avoiding responsibility is attractive to many.  After all, where much is given, much is expected.  However, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

Life is a great adventure, and avoiding pitfalls also means avoiding the adventure, or of the satisfaction of a job well done.  For a young man to go on a mission is a very hard and trying experience, just like enlistment in the military.  Yet it is precisely under such pressures that real achievements and growth occur.  If a life is filled with no risks, it is an empty and meaningless life.

 

There is nothing quite as intoxicating as being with the Saints on Sunday and being filled with the Holy Spirit.  Sometimes I think I've died and gone to heaven.  I know many others who feel the same.

 

Well I was being a bit tongue in cheek.  But I certainly do agree with life is a great adventure. 

[Teancum]

The joy of the full experience of the Holy Ghost, the understanding of your eternal destiny to help you find meaning in this life, the love of God, etc.

 

 

So do persons of other faiths experience similar joys even though the LDS person may think (possibly incorrectly) that the other person is wrong.

[filovirus]

I hope to explain some of this using the scriptures. I am not so good with words so if it doesn’t make sense, it is either that my writing is dreadful, or that my convoluted mind is seeing things the wrong way.

 

The apostle Paul had a similar dilemma as he was writing to the Romans. In this letter, he explains how people will be judged according to the law that they have. Basically, the Gentiles will not be held accountable to the Jewish law whereas those who did accept the Jewish law would be accountable to it. It is in Roman 2:6-16.

 

Here is what he said “For when the Gentile, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves; [who] shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

 

So what does that mean? In a nutshell they will be judged according to the understanding that they have. Joseph Smith put it best in D&C 84:46-47 “And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world,  that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit. And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.” Notice that Joseph Smith did not state they must be members of the Church of Jesus Christ.

 

The next question raised is why should be become members of the church? Again, in D&C 130:18-19 “Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.” I believe the ‘world to come’ means the Spirit World.

 

And then we have this quote from Bruce R. Mckonkie "If you're on that path and pressing forward, and you die, you'll never get off the path. There is no such thing as falling off the straight and narrow path in the life to come, and the reason is that this life is the time that is given to men to prepare for eternity. Now is the time and the day of your salvation, so if you're working zealously in this life—though you haven't fully overcome the world and you haven't done all you hoped you might do—you're still going to be saved.… You don't have to live a life that's truer than true.… What you have to do is stay in the mainstream of the Church and live as upright and decent people live in the Church—keeping the commandments, paying your tithing, serving in the organizations of the Church, loving the Lord, staying on the straight and narrow path. If you’re on that path when death comes—because this is the time and the day appointed, this the probationary estate—you'll never fall from it." (“The Probationary Test of Mortality,” address delivered at Institute of Religion, SLC, Utah, 10 Jan. 1982)

 

So why are there so few of God’s covenant people? I like the scripture in 2 Peter 2:9 “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should she forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:”

 

That does not mean we are better than others. In different translations of the bible peculiar is changed  to “chosen”.  In our own edition, peculiar means “special possession or property.” So if we are chosen and special property, what are chosen to do?

 

We are chosen to prepare the Kingdom of God on earth for the second coming collectively. And individually we are chosen to bring people into the Kingdom of God through missionary work and work for the dead. As has been shown, we are but a tiny percentage with a magnificent amount of work to do.

[The Nehor]

So do persons of other faiths experience similar joys even though the LDS person may think (possibly incorrectly) that the other person is wrong.

 

No.

[Sanpitch]

No.

You are absolutely, totally wrong.  I don't know about other faiths but I have in the family JWs and I know that they are very thrilled to have a gathering of other witnesses such as at biannual assemblies and summer conventions.  And they hate to miss a single weekly meeting.  They do feel very close to their Jehovah and pray often.  And they wait anxiously for their new world when all illness and hardship will be done away with.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Sanpitch

[The Nehor]

You are absolutely, totally wrong.  I don't know about other faiths but I have in the family JWs and I know that they are very thrilled to have a gathering of other witnesses such as at biannual assemblies and summer conventions.  And they hate to miss a single weekly meeting.  They do feel very close to their Jehovah and pray often.

I did not claim a monopoly on joy, just a specific type.

[Guest]

Again, I am not questioning that eventually all will receive the gospel.  What I am questioning is that the plan seems to be that all will receive the gospel after they die.  Having a church on earth seems to be so unimportant to all but a very few people.  Is this the real plan of salvation????  Because that is how this is all playing out.

I understand the point you are making...my point is this, terms like pre-mortal, mortal and post-mortal, are terms that help us cope. All of it, be it billions squared before and billions squared after...it is all just life. Arguing the timeframe to to suggest that the gospel is a disaster if someone does not receive it at age 8, or 18, or 80. To understand how it works and how it can benefit all is to read and understand the parable of the sower. I have benefited from the (the knowing of and the acceptance of) Gospel for 36 years and if I live to the natural age (projected age) I will have been a member for 60 years, and my reward will not be any greater that someone baptized the afternoon when I pass from this earth. We don't earn our salvation...it is free. We are exalted according to our works, by Grace and only Grace saves.

[Teancum]

No.

No they don't? Well that speaks volumes really. Pretty ethnocentric or religiously centric of you, But I am not surprised.

[Robert F. Smith]

So do persons of other faiths experience similar joys even though the LDS person may think (possibly incorrectly) that the other person is wrong.

No.

I second that emotion.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

No they don't? Well that speaks volumes really. Pretty ethnocentric or religiously centric of you, But I am not surprised.

Yeh, but that's the Nehor for you.  So emotional.

[california boy]

I understand the point you are making...my point is this, terms like pre-mortal, mortal and post-mortal, are terms that help us cope. All of it, be it billions squared before and billions squared after...it is all just life. Arguing the timeframe to to suggest that the gospel is a disaster if someone does not receive it at age 8, or 18, or 80. To understand how it works and how it can benefit all is to read and understand the parable of the sower. I have benefited from the (the knowing of and the acceptance of) Gospel for 36 years and if I live to the natural age (projected age) I will have been a member for 60 years, and my reward will not be any greater that someone baptized the afternoon when I pass from this earth. We don't earn our salvation...it is free. We are exalted according to our works, by Grace and only Grace saves.

 

I am not really addressing when a person joins the church in this life as it is only applicable to .1% of God's children.  What I am addressing is the other 99.9% of mankind that never receive the gospel.  How do your integrate the quote by Bruce R. McKonkie that Filovirous mentioned

 

 "If you're on that path and pressing forward, and you die, you'll never get off the path. There is no such thing as falling off the straight and narrow path in the life to come, and the reason is that this life is the time that is given to men to prepare for eternity. Now is the time and the day of your salvation, so if you're working zealously in this life—though you haven't fully overcome the world and you haven't done all you hoped you might do—you're still going to be saved.… You don't have to live a life that's truer than true.… What you have to do is stay in the mainstream of the Church and live as upright and decent people live in the Church—keeping the commandments, paying your tithing, serving in the organizations of the Church, loving the Lord, staying on the straight and narrow path. If you’re on that path when death comes—because this is the time and the day appointed, this the probationary estate—you'll never fall from it." (“The Probationary Test of Mortality,” address delivered at Institute of Religion, SLC, Utah, 10 Jan. 1982)

 

 

That is fine if you find that path while here on earth.  But what about the vast majority that have never heard of the path.  Will they continue on their path as well?  Can people repent in the next life? Or is now the time to prepare to meet God?  Most people never got that message.  I would guess that a lot of them have no idea what they are even suppose to repent of.  If it seemed normal and natural for them to live with their girlfriend for example, are they condemned forever because they fornicated while here on earth and they didn't think anything was wrong with it?  

 

OK a lot of questions.  I am just trying to fit all these peaces together when they don't really seem to go together that well.  Just trying to figure out what God expects of 99.9% of His children.  The other .1% who have found the church i pretty much get.  

[filovirus]

I'm right with you that the vast majority will need to repent and accept the Gospel in the world to come. I do think it will be harder to prove yourself in the spirit world. I trying to work it out myself.

I'm reminded of the BOM story of Alma preaching to the Zoramites in Alma 32:13-15. The poor were cast out of there synagogues and were compelled to be humble.

13 And now, because ye are compelled to be humble blessed are ye; for a man sometimes, if he is compelled to be humble, seeketh repentance; and now surely, whosoever repenteth shall find mercy; and he that findeth mercy and endureth to the end the same shall be saved.

14 And now, as I said unto you, that because ye were compelled to be humble ye were blessed, do ye not suppose that they are more blessed who truly humble themselves because of the word?

15 Yea, he that truly humbleth himself, and repenteth of his sins, and endureth to the end, the same shall be blessed—yea, much more blessed than they who are compelled to be humble because of their exceeding poverty.

I think in the spirit world people will be compelled to be humble because of the lack of a physical body. For instance, it will be much harder to show one can live the WoW without a body. How can one show he subdued the natural man in that sense. A person will have to prove that he truly humbled himself.

This is where the ones who died in faith come into play. To teach them and help them in the repentance process. It doesn't sound like an easy task.

Anyway, just some ramblings from me that may not even be right.

[The Nehor]

No they don't? Well that speaks volumes really. Pretty ethnocentric or religiously centric of you, But I am not surprised.

 

Ethnocentricity is judging another culture by the values of my own.

 

By the definition you are trying to jam in my saying that Hindus do not serve the equivalent of Mormon 2 year full-time missions is ethnocentric. I am saying that we experience something they do not. This is not a condescending position.

[Calm]

That is fine if you find that path while here on earth. But what about the vast majority that have never heard of the path. Will they continue on their path as well? Can people repent in the next life?

Whatever path we are on intersects with the straight and narrow when we convert in our hearts to the Lord's Gospel (this includes LDS that have been members all their lives, eventually they have to be converted in their hearts and minds just like everyone else so that they are living the commandments for the right reason...not just because they grew up that way). Whether the intersection occurs in this life or the next doesn't matter eternally speaking if we stay on it. It is at that time we must stay true to our conversion as much as possible.

Being in the Church provides areas of growth unique to it that may help us maintain our progression. But there are different aids to be found outside the Church as well that may well be more sustaining for some of those who receive them. How much each way of life will help us will depend imo on how much we listen to the light of Christ we all can receive and if those outside listen better, use what they have more to shed the natural man and turn toward the Lord even if they aren't aware that is who they are turning to mentally, they will be benefitted more than someone born in the Church, who is baptized and confirm but neglects the Gift of the Holy Ghost or over time uses his or her gifts to promote their own will over the Lord's.

I don't believe that most of us mortals can tell either when someone has been converted or what that means for anyone but ourselves...at least in specfic details. As I said before, most faiths and moral/ethic systems have some version of the two great commandments in them. I believe it is living those, that part of the law, that will bring our paths to become the straight and narrow no matter where we started in this life.

I think birth and death are made too much of in regards to our eternal progression. They are just stepping stones to another opportunity to take advantage of to grow, both in ourselves and eventually if we choose, closer to God.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Calm

[filovirus]

Just found this:

Life Beyond the Grave

Will it be harder or easier to embrace the gospel in the spirit world?

ANSWER

If God is just, then all of his children must have an equal opportunity to accept or reject the gospel before the Day of Judgment. As Latter-day Saints, we know that those who did not have the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life will have it in the spirit world before they are called forth from the grave. These, Peter said, will then "be judged according to men in the flesh" (1 Pet. 4:6). This statement means that the standard of discipleship is the same in this world and in the next.

In a revelation given to Joseph Smith, we learn that there was a law, "irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—and when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated" (D&C 130:20-21). There is no place that we can go to escape the laws of God or their effects. Those laws applied in our premortal life, they apply in mortality, and they will apply in the spirit world and in the eternities to come. The God we worship is "infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them" (D&C 20:17). When the scriptures speak of an everlasting gospel, they are describing a gospel that is everlastingly the same (see D&C 27:5; 101:39).

In principle it should be neither easier nor harder to exercise faith or to repent in the spirit world. Were that not the case, those in that estate could not be judged according to men in the flesh. For some it will be natural and easy to accept and live gospel truths, for that will have been the practice of a lifetime. For others it will be very difficult to do so, for eschewing the things of the Spirit will have been the practice of a lifetime. The difference is not in the gospel but in the hearts and souls of those to whom the message is being presented.

We must allow, however, for circumstances in which people were prisoners to experiences in this life that prevented them from having a fair chance to embrace gospel principles here. When they are freed from those bitter chains, many of them will seek the blessings of the gospel.

Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough Gospel Questions ( 1998)

[filovirus]

And this:

Life Beyond the Grave

Is there repentance in spirit prison?

ANSWER

A proper understanding of what spiritual progress can be made in the world of spirits must be founded on the declaration of Amulek, who said: "This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis [death], that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit [disposition] which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit [disposition] will have power to possess your body in that eternal world" (Alma 34:32-34).

Amulek is teaching us that death does not change a person's nature, nor does it change how close the person is to God. If it has become our nature to resist the things of the Spirit in this life, such will be our nature in the world to come. If, on the other hand, we have developed a propensity for spiritual things in this life, we carry that propensity with us into the spirit world. We know, as the scriptures declare, that our works follow us (see 3 Ne. 27:12; D&C 59:2; Rev. 14:13).

The principles that determine who will be granted the opportunity to exercise faith, repent, accept ordinances performed vicariously in their behalf, and receive the fulness of gospel blessings were announced in a marvelous vision given to Joseph Smith on 21 January 1836. The Lord said, "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom" (D&C 137:7-.

What was announced here is that only those who die without the opportunity to hear the gospel while in the flesh will have the opportunity to receive the fulness of its blessings in the world to come. Others may hear the gospel again in the spirit world and choose to accept it there, but having rejected it when it was first brought to them in mortality, they have forfeited the opportunity to receive the fulness of its blessings (see D&C 76:74). Emphasizing this principle in a poem, Joseph Smith wrote:

They receiv'd not the truth of the Saviour at first;

But did, when they heard it in prison again

("A Vision," 84)

Thus in the spirit world the fulness of gospel blessings goes to those who died without the opportunity to receive them in mortality and who God judges would have received them "with all their hearts" (D&C 137: if that opportunity had come to them. That is to say, they would have been true and faithful in all things. The principles involved evidence the justice of God. Those who receive the gospel in the spirit world do so as if they were in the flesh. The requisite faith, obedience, and courage associated with accepting the gospel can be no less there than it is here in mortality (see D&C 138:10). There are no shortcuts to the kingdom of heaven. The price appended to its blessings remains constant from dispensation to dispensation and from one world to the next.

Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough Gospel Questions ( 1998)

[VideoGameJunkie]

Basically the people in the eternity who are the most screwed are mormons who made covenants and sin. It seems everyone else gets a pass to accept and be cleansed and works done later but for us who are endowed we have higher standards to live up to with bigger consequences for failing. So did we get the short end of the stick? Us sinful mormons?

[The Nehor]

Basically the people in the eternity who are the most screwed are mormons who made covenants and sin. It seems everyone else gets a pass to accept and be cleansed and works done later but for us who are endowed we have higher standards to live up to with bigger consequences for failing. So did we get the short end of the stick? Us sinful mormons?

 

What has you convinced it will be easier to be cleansed in the next life rather then here?

[janderich]

...That is fine if you find that path while here on earth.  But what about the vast majority that have never heard of the path.  Will they continue on their path as well?  Can people repent in the next life? Or is now the time to prepare to meet God?  Most people never got that message.  I would guess that a lot of them have no idea what they are even suppose to repent of.  If it seemed normal and natural for them to live with their girlfriend for example, are they condemned forever because they fornicated while here on earth and they didn't think anything was wrong with it?

Again, each person is judged according to how they follow the light they receive. In other words, the spirit of the Lord will prompt people to act. In as much as they follow that spirit they will draw closer to God. It does not matter if they never heard of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, all people have the light of Christ, it will guide them. If they follow that light, at the end of this life they will find themselves prepared to receive the gospel in the next. If they have largely rejected the light of Christ they will find themselves trapped by their own choices in the spirit world.

Sometimes even LDS get hung up on the letter of the law. We paint ourselves as more blessed because we have performed certain ordinances in this life. Such is not necessarily the case. On the other hand, those where were never offered the gospel here are not better off in the next. It all depends on how we, and they, follow the spirit of the Lord.