So What Is The Real Plan Of God. Or Is The Plan Of Salvation A Complete Disaster.

[california boy]

Thanks for your comment.  And thanks for the comments above and those in this thread that have participated.  I guess the conclusion I am drawing is that the gospel of Jesus Christ restored to the earth in 1830 s almost a footnote.  It is of little relevance in the progression towards God and towards the Celestial Kingdom for billions of people.  The real plan of salvation for the vast majority of God's children was to listen to the light of Christ and through those subtle promptings learn to be a good person. We were suppose to figure all of this out on our own, through that light of Christ.   If they were raised in circumstances that taught them things contrary to the gospel, they will be judged with that taken into consideration.  Most will find religion outside the Church of Christ.  And that seems to be ok.  They will find joy in that but not as much joy as someone who finds the church of Christ.  Some will never find religion and may in fact never even believe in God.  That seems to be ok. All of that will be fixed in the next life.  All will have the opportunity to accept Christ and His atonement and repent of their sins.  When that acceptance happens is irrelevant (the parable of the sower)  The core lessons in life is who you are as a person, not what dogma you have embraced. That path they find in this life is in all likelihood the one they will keep going on after they die. This is the plan for the vast majority of mankind.  Whether one finds the gospel in this life or the next is irrelevant and unimportant.  Time, life, death, all blur together in importance.  One is not more important than the other.

 

Now there is this very small, statistically insignificant group of God's children that find the gospel, learn more knowledge and truth than the others, increase faster in intelligence because of the truths taught to that small group and progress further while on this life.  That intelligence rises with them in the next life. They are an anomaly.  Some have suggested that they are the noble and great ones from the pre existence, sothat is why they get this special treatment.  This small group will be the core group for doing the ordinance work for the 99.9% who lived without the gospel.  They are like the bakers yeast for the rest of mankind.

 

BLUE = Yup

RED = Nope

 

 

I am interested in your thinking.  How is the restoration of the church relevant to all those billions of people who lived from the time of Christ until 1830.  And how is it important to the billions of people now living that have never heard of the church or know very little about it OTHER THAN THE ORDINANCE WORK that will be done for them which I referenced in my statement.

 

Why do you disagree that MOST will find religion outside the church of Christ??  And some will actually never find any religion at all, but ti will be fixed in the next life???

 

Do you think someone will be penalized if they don't find the gospel until after they die?  Because you disagreed with my statement that when the acceptance happens is irrelevant.

 

Can you explain why you think that finding the gospel and being a member is not special treatment?  Isn't it a bigger blessing to have the gospel while in mortality rather than finding out after you die?

 

Love to hear your thoughts.

Edited September 19, 2015 by california boy

[california boy]

You have a lot of damn gall criticizing the Plan of Salvation after wadding yours up and throwing it in the trash.

Excuse me?  I am not criticizing the Plan of Salvation.  I am trying to figure out how it applies to the vast majority of God's children.  If you think that I have suggested something that is not true, then your comments are welcome just like everyone else.

[california boy]

I'm sure this has been mentioned but all have the Light of Christ and can choose to do good or evil. The fact is the Gospel was restored in its fullness and with the restoration of the Priesthood and temples the gospel and its ordinances can be brought to all those who have lived.. Remember it is also being taught in the post mortal world. The important thing was establishing once again the ordinances and power to bring it to all the world, both living and dead.

 

That is basically what I outlined in my statement.  I think most of the time we talk about how the Plan of Salvation effects and acts upon members of the church.  I guess the purpose of this thread is to talk about how the Plan of Salvation effects and acts upon the vast majority of God's children that are not members and where the role of the church fits in.  As I mentioned, probably the most important key part is in the ordinance works done in the temples for those who never hear the gospel.

[california boy]

The success of the plan of salvation is not determined by whether or when everyone receives exaltation, but in that Christ fulfilled the Father’s will so that everyone has a choice in receiving it. By extension, the success of the earthly kingdom or the Church is not determined by whether or when everyone joins it in their earth life, but in that Christ (who heads His Church) exercises the keys through His servants so that each soul among the billions of living and dead has a choice in joining the Church of the Firstborn.

 

I think the statement here should be reworked to reflect that basic premise.

 

I think you have an excelent point.  Certainly the role that the Savior played should have been a key part of that statement.  I will wait until we get a few more comments and then try another attempt at making sense of all of this as it applies to the vast majority of God's children that never embrace the gospel in this life.

[Bobbieaware]

Note: not final judgement. Final judgement occurs just before the resurrection. As we have discussed, people will need to hear and accept the gospel in the spirit world.

If at the time of death,it is already known who is and who is not worthy of celestial glory, what is the final judgement all about? In other words, what will be determined at the final judgement that isn't already clearly known?

What do you think of Apostle Maxwell's statement that rapid change for the better -- for those who stand in need of repentance -- is as possible for those in the world of departed spirits?

Edited September 19, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[california boy]

Also, why is the Book of Mormon considered the single most important book of scripture, more than the Bible, and Doctrine and Covenants, where it's the Bible that talks about the beginning and Jesus life, and D&C talks about everything relevant to us today about how our church is run and temple marriage and modern revelation. What is it about the Book of Mormon that makes the apostles say read this 1 book it's super important. Our sacrament meeting spent the last 2 months with talks about nothing but the Book of Mormon and it's importance. So what actually about it is so important? The many wars? Or just the fact that we got it from golden plates which were written down on and passed down on then buried and taken back by the Angel Moroni never to be seen again. I'm just asking what makes the Book of Mormon number 1. We're always told by prophets and GAs to read through the Book of Mormon. So many times they say this. We're never told to read through Doctrine and Covenants.

Probably another thread.  I would be interested in hearing a discussion about what you bring up though.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well I'd love for that thread California Boy, but you see the mods put me on limited so I can't make that thread.

Edited September 19, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie

[Teancum]

Really? You may be surprised to know that the leaders of the church have been teaching this very thing for years. Boyd Packer years ago talked about the Lord raising up good people to inspire others in many settings to live better lives.

 

In my view the purpose of the organization of the church was not to have a monopoly on joy and wonder, but to give people the opportunity in this life to receive ordinances which will enable them to progress further. Joseph Smith always believed in letting others live according to their conscience and didn't only support that in words but in deeds by helping other churches with their buildings or meetings. Just as the church does today.

 

 

Great!  I agree. Too bad so many Mormons don't adopt this ideal.

[Teancum]

Depends on who you ask. Obviously you don't believe it.

 

 

I am a seeker of truth.  I am LDS and have lived all my adult life as an active participating LDS person.  But I have concluded in the past 8 years that the LDS Church is not what it claims.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Can someone else start a thread about the importance of the Book of Mormon. And then I can start my convo. I'm on limited so I can't start threads.

[janderich]

If at the time of death,it is already known who is and who is not worthy of celestial glory, what is the final judgement all about? In other words, what will be determined at the final judgement that isn't already clearly known?

What do you think of Apostle Maxwell's statement that rapid change for the better -- for those who stand in need of repentance -- is as possible for those in the world of departed spirits?

At death some will be worthy of celestial glory, I see no problem with that. They are members of the church who have received the ordinances and been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Of course others will not yet be worthy. They will have to accept the ordinances and be sealed up unto eternal life. Some because they have prepared themselves by following the spirit of the Lord will accept it quickly upon hearing it while at the other end of the spectrum some will reject truth and remain filthy still. 

 

Elder Maxwell statement about immediately flipping our attitude in the spirit world is not well supported by other authorities. Clearly Melvin J. Ballard did not support it and there is evidence Joseph Smith didn't support it. O. B. Huntington quotes Joseph as saying, "a man can do as much in this life in one year as he can do in ten years in the spirit world without the body" (The Young Woman's Journal p. 366)

[Bobbieaware]

At death some will be worthy of celestial glory, I see no problem with that. They are members of the church who have received the ordinances and been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Of course others will not yet be worthy. They will have to accept the ordinances and be sealed up unto eternal life. Some because they have prepared themselves by following the spirit of the Lord will accept it quickly upon hearing it while at the other end of the spectrum some will reject truth and remain filthy still. 

 

Elder Maxwell statement about immediately flipping our attitude in the spirit world is not well supported by other authorities. Clearly Melvin J. Ballard did not support it and there is evidence Joseph Smith didn't support it. O. B. Huntington quotes Joseph as saying, "a man can do as much in this life in one year as he can do in ten years in the spirit world without the body" (The Young Woman's Journal p. 366)

If The Joseph Smith quote is correct, then the antediluvians who perished in the floods have been in the Post-mortal spirit world for about 4,500 years. if we use the prophet's formula, that would mean the antediluvians have had the equivalent of about 450 earth years to learn to repent, exercise faith in Christ and improve. That's almost 5 times the normal modern lifespan of a modern man. It appears the Lord has found a way to be more than fair to the children of men because since those in the spirit world have so much more time to change, a fast turnaround there would appear slower to those of us adjusted to an earthly timeframe.

How does the following quote from Joseph Smith fit into your paradigm?

"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.

[CV75]

I think you have an excelent point.  Certainly the role that the Savior played should have been a key part of that statement.  I will wait until we get a few more comments and then try another attempt at making sense of all of this as it applies to the vast majority of God's children that never embrace the gospel in this life.

I think, for example, had Cain not chosen to slay Abel, there would have been 2-3 times the family lines of righteous tradition under Adam than that which was passed on though Seth alone. The Flood could have been averted, the dispensations rolled out quicker or without as many or severe apostasies, etc. The wolrd could have been more receptive to the Gospel and we'd have a situation where the vast majority actually accepted it in this life.

 

And things could have been worse! But Jesus would have always obeyed the Father, preserved agency, administer the means to save mankind (in the pre-mortal, mortal, and mortal spheres just as we have now), set up His earthly (now Restored) and heavenly (Firstborn) Church, etc.

[RevTestament]

Rev, so is it like 10 times worse breaking a covenant than breaking a commandment?

Depends on the covenant....

But the Lord told the Jews that they had broken the covenant, and therefore He was ending it....And that is when Rome came in and finished off Jerusalem...

Our covenants are more in the vein of a personal relationship imho than commandments. You don't need any relationship to follow a commandment do you? You could be a slave. I hate to say it, but I think most do not fully appreciate the significance of the temple covenants.

[RevTestament]

Also, why is the Book of Mormon considered the single most important book of scripture, more than the Bible, and Doctrine and Covenants, where it's the Bible that talks about the beginning and Jesus life, and D&C talks about everything relevant to us today about how our church is run and temple marriage and modern revelation. What is it about the Book of Mormon that makes the apostles say read this 1 book it's super important. Our sacrament meeting spent the last 2 months with talks about nothing but the Book of Mormon and it's importance. So what actually about it is so important? The many wars? Or just the fact that we got it from golden plates which were written down on and passed down on then buried and taken back by the Angel Moroni never to be seen again. I'm just asking what makes the Book of Mormon number 1. We're always told by prophets and GAs to read through the Book of Mormon. So many times they say this. We're never told to read through Doctrine and Covenants.

Ya know, I personally really love the Bible. But the BOM does have some rather important things to say in order to fully understand the atonement.

It also has subtle teaching presented just in the way of story. But the story is teaching important points. Like how to do effective missionary work.

And yes, D & C is also important, but to understand it, one must already have a good background in the Bible as well as being familiar with the BOM.

[california boy]

I think, for example, had Cain not chosen to slay Abel, there would have been 2-3 times the family lines of righteous tradition under Adam than that which was passed on though Seth alone. The Flood could have been averted, the dispensations rolled out quicker or without as many or severe apostasies, etc. The wolrd could have been more receptive to the Gospel and we'd have a situation where the vast majority actually accepted it in this life.

 

And things could have been worse! But Jesus would have always obeyed the Father, preserved agency, administer the means to save mankind (in the pre-mortal, mortal, and mortal spheres just as we have now), set up His earthly (now Restored) and heavenly (Firstborn) Church, etc.

 

Do you think that God could foresee that Able would slew Cain?  Or was this something unforeseen for mankind.

[Guest]

I am not really addressing when a person joins the church in this life as it is only applicable to .1% of God's children.  What I am addressing is the other 99.9% of mankind that never receive the gospel.  How do your integrate the quote by Bruce R. McKonkie that Filovirous mentioned

 

 

That is fine if you find that path while here on earth.  But what about the vast majority that have never heard of the path.  Will they continue on their path as well?  Can people repent in the next life? Or is now the time to prepare to meet God?  Most people never got that message.  I would guess that a lot of them have no idea what they are even suppose to repent of.  If it seemed normal and natural for them to live with their girlfriend for example, are they condemned forever because they fornicated while here on earth and they didn't think anything was wrong with it?  

The person I was quoting about how all stages of existence is "life" came from the writings of McKonkie. Yes people can repent and come unto Christ in post-mortal existence...otherwise why do we go to the Temple for those who have died. The sad reality is this; those who live in outright rebellion, are likely to remain rebellious even in the Spirit World. We are taught that the same spirit that we have in this life is the same one that rises with us. All wish that God will forgive on their terms, or hopes he will look over any sinn our weakness. Man has always tried to create God in their image, instead of knowing we were created in his image...of course without the need to sin, or justify our vanity. In fact the more sinfull a man or woman, we want a God who will forgive everybody. To answer to the scripture you quoted..."now is the time to prepare to meet God", because it will be more difficult to do it after we have,passed from this earth, because we did not learn those skills here, or humility. As I stated though, since the same spirit that we have in this rises with us in the next, now is the time for spirit building. Also God has,prepared a place for all, each according to their desires, being as just as he can. Those who seek a Celestial Life, will like accordingly, but not all want this as an example that some many don't what anything to do with him now, and find even attending Church to be more that they can bear.

Much has been said about lifestyles that are not accepted by the Church which is why they stay away. We may not be able to control how we fill, but we can all control how we act, that we cannot control our nature...but we can. There are people of many faiths who live chaste lives dispite their nature. Even married men must choose to live against our natures as being true to our wives, dispite being drawn to, or attacked to every woman they find attractive. There have been times in my life, when I have pleaded with God to make every other woman on earth seem ugly, so that impure thoughts did not enter my mind. But regardless of those feelings, I have only known one woman (in the Biblical term to the word$ in my entire life. In a couple of months it will be 40 years. If we want to live with God the Father..."now is the time to prepare to meet God", if not and we seek a lesser reward, then those individuals are already living those lives. For nay who want nothing to do with God, they too are already living lives that will lead them to that conclusion.

[The Nehor]

Do you think that God could foresee that Able would slew Cain?  Or was this something unforeseen for mankind.

 

He saw it.

[CV75]

Do you think that God could foresee that Able would slew Cain?  Or was this something unforeseen for mankind.

I think He could foresee any number of choices (and their trajectories) by any number of His children. I think He definitely uses this foreknowledge strategically, which is why the plan addresses any contingency. That is he beauty of it. For example, had Cain been righteous and Abel lived, Zion could have been established earlier and with a larger number of saints; Enoch’s covenant may have looked more like Abraham’s and the Gospel availed to more people during their lifetims throughout Earth's history. The Flood could have been delayed until the ushering in of the Millennium as part of the final cleansing of the earth of the wicked, much fewer in number than we might see today.

 

In any case, I think an analysis of the plan’s success for what we see in our own lifetime does not hinge on our understanding of God’s foreknowledge; we live by our own choices (and live better, at least spiritually speaking, if we submit our choices to His will). The Gospel is meant to be lived in the present for its own reward.

[filovirus]

Do you think that God could foresee that Able would slew Cain?  Or was this something unforeseen for mankind.

I think he saw it. The same way I can know which of my children would fail the marshmallow test and which would pass it. But in the end, its still my children who make the final decision to take the marshmallow or wait.

[Stargazer]

Thanks for your clarification on remembrance of the pre existence.  I wasn't sure on that.  I did see Saturday's Warrior, but it was many years ago when it first came out.  I don't remember that much of it except part of the music.

 

Now to address your point.  If I am understanding your point, what you are suggesting is the the plan was never that God's children would have a chance to receive the gospel in this life.  It was always that they would receive the teachings after they die.  They were always suppose to struggle through their mortal life without understanding or even knowing why they were on earth and what they were suppose to do to return to God in mortality.  Do I have that right?

 

I'm running Windows 10 and the quote function is not working consistently. It's maddening.

 

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that "...the plan was never that God's children would have a chance to receive the gospel in this life."  The plan was that all of us would be sent to earth, and the circumstances were such that very few would have the opportunity to receive the gospel in this life, which Father foresaw, but that mortality was necessary for them all.  It was also necessary for the Son of Man to come and do what He did, so that all would be able to be saved from the consequences of mortality. 

 

Struggling through one's mortal life without understanding or knowing why we're here is possible even for those who have accepted the gospel here in mortality.  You see, I claim a certain amount of special knowledge of God's plan, both through the teachings of the church and through that which I have learned by personal revelation, but even I am not fully understanding of what the heck is going on.  Doubt is inherently part of the plan -- it has to be, otherwise we would not have a fair test.  As I've said.

 

I hope this answers your question. 

[janderich]

If The Joseph Smith quote is correct, then the antediluvians who perished in the floods have been in the Post-mortal spirit world for about 4,500 years. if we use the prophet's formula, that would mean the antediluvians have had the equivalent of about 450 earth years to learn to repent, exercise faith in Christ and improve. That's almost 5 times the normal modern lifespan of a modern man. It appears the Lord has found a way to be more than fair to the children of men because since those in the spirit world have so much more time to change, a fast turnaround there would appear slower to those of us adjusted to an earthly timeframe.

If this is what Elder Maxwell meant by "immediate flip-flop" then fine.

How does the following quote from Joseph Smith fit into your paradigm?

"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.

All will be resurrected and acknowledge Christ. But individuals will be quickened according to the light they would receive. However, the work of perfection will span a long long time and there will yet be many tests and opportunities to grow.

[stephenpurdy]

I'm with California Boy. All the explaining and justifying doesn't change the fact that the whole plan of salvation on this Earth that revolves around Joseph Smith's restoration of the Gospel is just a tiny detail in the story of the Earth's people. In the overall picture it amounts to almost nothing. As I mentioned a few months ago, why wouldn't there have been a book of knowledge for all the Earth's people in their own language, all through history that explained what people need to know. Then there wouldn't be thousands of Christian Churches of different faiths and billions of Muslims and Hindus and on and on. It never made sense to me and if it doesn't make sense it is a little hard to believe.

 

 

Why place a veil over our memories?  Why doesn't God just come down and tell us in person exactly what the true doctrines are and exactly how he wants us to live our lives?

 

Alma 32 gives some interesting insight:

 

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

 18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

 19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

 20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

 

By placing distance between the presence of God and man and God's truth, God has given us a greater amount of freedom of choice.  God wants people to seek Him out and seek out His truth and His righteousness without overwhelming proof. 

 

By the way, as the verses above indicate, this also allows God to extend greater amounts of mercy when we fail.

 

-Stephen

[Sanpitch]

Why place a veil over our memories?  Why doesn't God just come down and tell us in person exactly what the true doctrines are and exactly how he wants us to live our lives?

 

Alma 32 gives some interesting insight:

 

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

 18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

 19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

 20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

 

By placing distance between the presence of God and man and God's truth, God has given us a greater amount of freedom of choice.  God wants people to seek Him out and seek out His truth and His righteousness without overwhelming proof. 

 

By the way, as the verses above indicate, this also allows God to extend greater amounts of mercy when we fail.

 

-Stephen

 

Without using quotes from scripture or other sources let's use our own reasoning ability.  Why is using faith so much more glorious rather than just using given facts.  Is it also glorious to have total faith in the wrong things as the correct things?  If a person has total faith in the correct faith does he/she get more credit than one who has total faith using indisputable facts?  They both have the same freedom of choice to follow the correct path or not.  So much energy is put into trying get that faith that some people want.  In the LDS faith there are testimony meetings to allow individuals to bear their testimony for the purpose of building up the faith of others.

[california boy]

Why place a veil over our memories?  Why doesn't God just come down and tell us in person exactly what the true doctrines are and exactly how he wants us to live our lives?

 

Alma 32 gives some interesting insight:

 

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

 18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

 19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

 20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

 

By placing distance between the presence of God and man and God's truth, God has given us a greater amount of freedom of choice.  God wants people to seek Him out and seek out His truth and His righteousness without overwhelming proof. 

 

By the way, as the verses above indicate, this also allows God to extend greater amounts of mercy when we fail.

 

-Stephen

 

Well that appears to be working for about .01% of His children.  If God is ok with that then I guess we should be too.  But it is pretty clear that this point in earth's history that the vast majority of God's children were never ever going to find the plan of salvation in their mortal lives.  

 

And it is not like God has made it easy to find his church.  By instituting polygamy from the very beginning, it caused a lot of people to regard the church from coming from somewhere else than heaven.  Then instituting a racial policy further distanced people from the church.  

 

On the surface, God not only put distance between Himself and man, He seemed to also put obstacles in recognizing His church when it was finally restored.  But like I said, it is His plan.  We are just sent to wander here on earth doing the best we can with the vast majority of us not getting any guidance from God unless we happen to be some lucky soul that stumbles upon the church.  Being struck by lightning has much better odds.

Edited September 22, 2015 by california boy