So What Is The Real Plan Of God. Or Is The Plan Of Salvation A Complete Disaster.

[california boy]

All of these comments reflects a great mistrust in a loving God's wisdom to judge righteously. Also the idea that if he does not save everyone them he is not loving, or if I have chosen to live a life in direct conflict to his commands, then he is unjust for not saving "me" or for not making exceptions for "me". Each of these issues come down to this, if God will not make an exception for "me" and "my" rebellion or forgive those I want forgiven then "I'll" not even try, "I'll" just reject any belief other that universalism, where everyone gets saved regardless of their sins. This sounds inviting, but just is not so. Having faith in God does not just mean believing, but believing his is just in his judgements. It is having faith that is view of all things, and that it is an unobstructed view of all things, not limited by our obstructed view. Or as the Apostle Paul said, "...in this life we see through a glass darkly".

 

Again you are missing the point.  We are not talking about how judgement takes place.  What the OP is about is what is the real plan of salvation?  Is the real plan that everyone receives the gospel after this life, accepts Christ and is saved by proxy ordinances?  Because that is the path for virtually ALL of God's children that have ever lived. 

 

What is a rebellion against God?  Breaking commandments that you don't believe in or have no knowledge of?  And by so doing, are you damned forever because you didn't clearly understand what God expected us to do while on earth?  That makes no sense for the VAST majority of the people who have been sent to earth.  If the time to learn about God's commandments occur only AFTER this life, then what were the vast majority of God's children suppose to do while on this earth????

[Bobbieaware]

Bobbie, this is EXACTLY my point. For 99.9999% of God's children, there is no path to God in this life. It ALL happens in the next life. The vast majority of people living or who have ever lived on earth got on value out of the restoration while on earth. So was the plan all along that almost EVERYONE would only be taught the gospel after they die? That is what I am asking. If you find that a negative "take", you are going to have to explain why. Because I am only stating reality.

Untrue. Life is a continuum. All people on this planet, whether they are members of the Church or not, have the light of Christ within them and are all intimately involved in the battle between right and wrong, good and evil. light and darkness, the sweet and the bitter. It's all a part of our education leading to eternity. For those who don't join the Church in the flesh, their earthly experiences, for good or ill, will have a most significant impact on the lessons the will learn when taught the Gospel in the world of departed spirits. And don't forget that those who teach the Gospel to the dead are the faithful who lived lives of Gospel success in the flesh (see D&C 138)! And look at all the temples that now dot the world, and realize most of what goes on in those sacred buildings is done for the dead, So it all ties in! Anyway, if everything works out for the best, what difference does it make?

Finally, according to the Book of Mormon, the day is going to come when the entire world will unite to fight against the Church, so the Church isn't going to remain obscure forever. For why else would the world unite to fight the Church unless it's considered a major threat to the kingdom of the devil?

Edited September 17, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Storm Rider]

I'm with California Boy. All the explaining and justifying doesn't change the fact that the whole plan of salvation on this Earth that revolves around Joseph Smith's restoration of the Gospel is just a tiny detail in the story of the Earth's people. In the overall picture it amounts to almost nothing. As I mentioned a few months ago, why wouldn't there have been a book of knowledge for all the Earth's people in their own language, all through history that explained what people need to know. Then there wouldn't be thousands of Christian Churches of different faiths and billions of Muslims and Hindus and on and on. It never made sense to me and if it doesn't make sense it is a little hard to believe.

 

You boys keep missing the point.  I can only assume that neither of you are asking questions to learn or hear a response, but rather to ridicule and belittle.  When you are serious and willing to listen, go back and read the first several responses.  Until then, keep that head in the sand and be as happy as a you can be.  

[california boy]

Untrue. Life is a continuum. All people on this planet, whether they are members of the Church or not, have the light of Christ within them and are all intimately involved in the battle between right and wrong, good and evil. light and darkness, the sweet and the bitter. It's all a part of our education leading to eternity. For those who don't join the Church in the flesh, their earthly experiences, for good or ill, will have a most significant impact on the lessons the will learn when taught the Gospel in the world of departed spirits. And don't forget that those who teach the Gospel to the dead are the faithful who lived lives of Gospel success in the flesh (see D&C 138)! And look at all the temples that now dot the world, and realize most of what goes on in those sacred buildings is done for the dead, So it all ties in! Anyway, if everything works out for the best, what difference does it make?

Finally, according to the Book of Mormon, the day is going to come when the entire world will unite to fight against the Church, so the Church isn't going to remain obscure forever. For why else would the world unite to fight the Church unless it's considered a major threat to the kingdom of the devil?

 

What is untrue.  Is all I have stated is that for the VAST majority, I am talking about 99.9999% of God's children, they don't even hear about the plan of salvation until after they die.  Was that the plan all along?  Was the plan always that everything would be handled by proxy after people die?  Because the chance of living the gospel in this life is almost non existent.  Can you dispute that???

[california boy]

You boys keep missing the point.  I can only assume that neither of you are asking questions to learn or hear a response, but rather to ridicule and belittle.  When you are serious and willing to listen, go back and read the first several responses.  Until then, keep that head in the sand and be as happy as a you can be.  

 

So tell me.  What is the point.  That is why I opened this thread.  I want to know what the point is.  Is the point to this whole plan of salvation to all take place after the vast majority of God's children die?  That is all I am asking.

[Robert F. Smith]

.................................................................

......................................................The vast majority of people never even make it to the starting line.  Heck, they never even hear the message of where the starting gate is.  They are born, live their lives and die with no knowledge of this wonderful plan.

 

So what is the real plan of God?  Was this whole process developed just so that after men die, they can be put in a place and taught the gospel then?  Is that the plan?  Was finding the gospel on earth even a part of the plan?  What do you think is the "real" plan of God.  Exactly how will the majority of God's children have a chance at exaltation?  If it is all about the next life and opportunities to hear the gospel there, then why even bother with spending a lifetime on earth?  What are your thoughts?  Is the church statistically even that important in the whole scheme of things?  

As one California boy to another, we are both in this life the same as everyone else, and the race does get handicapped.  We stub our toes and say "oww!!."  We eat some gelado and smile.  That's what us godlings are here for.  As Paul said, "They who have not the Law are a law unto themselves."  Everybody is equal before eternal law.  If you are not a Jew, it is not necessary to follow kashrut.  The Noahide Laws, yes, but not the Law of Moses.

 

God is the great and perfect leveller.

 

The Children of Israel and LDS Church don't need to be big to get the job done.  But somebody has to willingly be the point of the spear.

 

Both of us are going to be able to discuss this with each other on the other side, in glory.  Still have to graduate from Boot Camp though . . . 

[Robert F. Smith]

"All of us come here to obtain physical bodies, and have experience preparatory to godhood."

 

Are you saying that godhood is available to us?

Of course, and that is the very centerpiece of Mormon theology.  The raison d'etre, if you will.

[CV75]

Bobbie, this is EXACTLY my point.  For 99.9999% of God's children, there is no path to God in this life.  It ALL happens in the next life.  The vast majority of people living or who have ever lived on earth got on value out of the restoration while on earth.  So was the plan all along that almost EVERYONE would only be taught the gospel after they die?  That is what I am asking.  If you find that a negative "take", you are going to have to explain why.  Because I am only stating reality.

The plan all along was to have the after-life backup in case everyone didn’t have access to the path in this life.

[Guest]

Again, I am not questioning that eventually all will receive the gospel.  What I am questioning is that the plan seems to be that all will receive the gospel after they die.  Having a church on earth seems to be so unimportant to all but a very few people.  Is this the real plan of salvation????  Because that is how this is all playing out.

Life and the Gospel, God's sees in one eternal round. Because life did not begin here, nor does it end here...all will receive it during their lives, and all will have to accept or reject it. There is no "after life"...there is only life. Arguing about when someone gets it, is like arguing did they get it in the Kitchen or the Living Room.

[Robert F. Smith]

..........................  Is all I have stated is that for the VAST majority, I am talking about 99.9999% of God's children, they don't even hear about the plan of salvation until after they die.  Was that the plan all along?  Was the plan always that everything would be handled by proxy after people die?  Because the chance of living the gospel in this life is almost non existent.  Can you dispute that???

Every culture has rules, customs, and laws.  Each person must follow them as best he can, many in a near total state of naivete.  For St Paul it was quite simple:  At the end of the day (at the end of Earthlife), "They who have not the Law of Moses, are a law unto themselves."

[Calm]

To me mortality is to get a body and to spend some time out away from Mom and Dad...kind of like going off to playschool on our own for a few hours to see how we behave and what we want to do when we don't have Mom and Dad to look at to easily see how they would want us to behave.

So it makes sense to me that there isn't a lot of obvious to everyone direct and specific input from God for now.

I don't know why the Church is necessary at all when it is present in mortality; I think it needs to be around just enough to keep everyone close enough to the path that this life becomes a part of our progression and not a regression. But because we are part of God's family and we've spent a lot of time with him and the rest, it doesn't require much to keep things going in the right direction.

Why some have the chance to experience the gospel in a fuller form and others don't, don't know how this gets determined though it would seem at least some have nudges from God to make sure they are in a certain place and time to make a choice. I think the vast majority have had the opportunity to live the first two commandments even if their understanding of what those commandments mean varies a great deal depending on one's culture.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Calm

[pogi]

I am personally in awe of the plan.    It is all made possible through the at-one-ment, whereby all truth is circumscribed into one great whole.  Whoever said that the Mormons hold the whole truth, or play the only role in the plan?  

 

We will all be judged according to the light we have been given.  It is simple, merciful, just, and pure. 

[california boy]

The plan all along was to have the after-life backup in case everyone didn’t have access to the path in this life.

 

But the question I am asking is if the after-life is the main plan and finding the gospel is the plan.  

 

You see, if the main plan is for people to find the gospel in this life and learn how to make it back to God while on earth, then that plan is catastrophic failure.

[Sanpitch]

Of course, and that is the very centerpiece of Mormon theology.  The raison d'etre, if you will.

Then what does this mean?  From the Mormon News Room, Mormonism FAQ: 

Do Latter-day Saints believe they can become “gods”?

Latter-day Saints believe that God wants us to become like Him. But this teaching is often misrepresented by those who caricature the faith. The Latter-day Saint belief is no different than the biblical teaching, which states, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together” (Romans 8:16-17). Through following Christ's teachings, Latter-day Saints believe all people can become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4).

[Robert F. Smith]

Then what does this mean?  From the Mormon News Room, Mormonism FAQ: 

Do Latter-day Saints believe they can become “gods”?

Latter-day Saints believe that God wants us to become like Him. But this teaching is often misrepresented by those who caricature the faith. The Latter-day Saint belief is no different than the biblical teaching, which states, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together” (Romans 8:16-17). Through following Christ's teachings, Latter-day Saints believe all people can become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4).

Yeh.  That is the plan.  And everyone is eligible.  Everyone.  Not just those who heard the Gospel in this life.

[Robert F. Smith]

But the question I am asking is if the after-life is the main plan and finding the gospel is the plan.  

 

You see, if the main plan is for people to find the gospel in this life and learn how to make it back to God while on earth, then that plan is catastrophic failure.

The purpose of Earthlife is not to hear the Gospel preached, but to live according to whatever law you were born to.  Learn how to have a conscience.  Learn how to use your body, how to deal with others.  Everyone needs to experience that.  The ordinances can be taken care of later.  I don't understand where the "catastrophic failure" enters in . . . 

[Sanpitch]

Yeh.  That is the plan.  And everyone is eligible.  Everyone.  Not just those who heard the Gospel in this life.

 

Then you can become a god without an earth?  From the same source: 

 

Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

[CV75]

duplicate

Edited September 18, 2015 by CV75

[CV75]

But the question I am asking is if the after-life is the main plan and finding the gospel is the plan.  

 

You see, if the main plan is for people to find the gospel in this life and learn how to make it back to God while on earth, then that plan is catastrophic failure.

I think it is all one plan. It accommodates every contingency that could have played out in this world.

[strappinglad]

sorry,got called away.

Edited September 18, 2015 by strappinglad

[The Nehor]

So tell me.  What is the point.  That is why I opened this thread.  I want to know what the point is.  Is the point to this whole plan of salvation to all take place after the vast majority of God's children die?  That is all I am asking.

 

I suspect that for much of humanity experiencing mortality is vital for growth even without the gospel as part of mortality.

[carbon dioxide]

Since the time of Christ, the gospel has not even been on the earth for most of the time, except in corrupt forms at best.  Then in 1830 the gospel was restored to the earth once again.  But since the founding of the church, the percentage of people in the world who have found the gospel and embraced it is statistically .000001% or some other incredibly small number.  To claim that joining the church is the path that leads God's children back to eternal life means that the plan of salvation was laid out for a VERY small tiny group of people that are hardly a blip on the screen.  And of that tiny blip, how many are even attending church?

 

It is far more successful than you understand. Lets just look at one group. Those who have died before age 8 or accountability.  Hundreds of millions over history.  All going to the celestial kingdom.  The Celestial Kingdom is well populated.  No need to worry. 

[carbon dioxide]

What is untrue.  Is all I have stated is that for the VAST majority, I am talking about 99.9999% of God's children, they don't even hear about the plan of salvation until after they die.  Was that the plan all along?  Was the plan always that everything would be handled by proxy after people die?  Because the chance of living the gospel in this life is almost non existent.  Can you dispute that???

It could be said that being born in the Church actually is a disadvantage.  We are given so much light and knowledge that we are far more accountable for the same bad acts that those who have never heard it.  In some situations, probably the worst thing we can do is tell them the gospel as then they would become accountable.

Edited September 18, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Teancum]

It could be said that being born in the Church actually is a disadvantage.  We are given so much light and knowledge that we are far more accountable for the same bad acts that those who have never heard it.  In some situations, probably the worst thing we can do is tell them the gospel as then they would become accountable.

This seems to make it out to be a really bad plan for those who are Mormon then doesn't it ? Missionaries should be telling people not to join the church! Wait till the next life.

[yootaw]

Since the time of Christ, the gospel has not even been on the earth for most of the time, except in corrupt forms at best.  Then in 1830 the gospel was restored to the earth once again.  But since the founding of the church, the percentage of people in the world who have found the gospel and embraced it is statistically .000001% or some other incredibly small number.  To claim that joining the church is the path that leads God's children back to eternal life means that the plan of salvation was laid out for a VERY small tiny group of people that are hardly a blip on the screen.  And of that tiny blip, how many are even attending church?

 

So the only obvious conclusion one could possibly draw is that the Plan of Salvation laid out in the pre existence is either a complete and utter failure or that plan of finding the gospel in this life and working out one's salvation was only met for a tiny tiny fraction of God's children.  So what about the other 99.99999% of God's children? It seems like a lot of work to create the earth and run all of us through this process for so few tiny results.  The vast majority of people never even make it to the starting line.  Heck, they never even hear the message of where the starting gate is.  They are born, live their lives and die with no knowledge of this wonderful plan.

 

So what is the real plan of God?  Was this whole process developed just so that after men die, they can be put in a place and taught the gospel then?  Is that the plan?  Was finding the gospel on earth even a part of the plan?  What do you think is the "real" plan of God.  Exactly how will the majority of God's children have a chance at exaltation?  If it is all about the next life and opportunities to hear the gospel there, then why even bother with spending a lifetime on earth?  What are your thoughts?  Is the church statistically even that important in the whole scheme of things?  

Yes - exactly.  This realization was a major problem for me when I first started having doubts.  I was taught that the main purposes of this life were to gain a physical body, and to make covenants that would allow us to return to God (for which the physical body is somehow necessary).  We all have bodies, but so few have the chance to learn about the gospel and make the necessary covenants.  How is it possible that one of the main purposes of this earth life is left unfulfilled during their life?  I'm left to conclude that completing ordinances while on earth can't be a primary purpose for this life.