So What Is The Real Plan Of God. Or Is The Plan Of Salvation A Complete Disaster.

[CV75]

 less than 1% of God's children hear the gospel, accept it and live it

 

99% of mankind is to receive the ordinances after they die

The plan of salvation is structured so that whether many or few people in this world find the Gospel in their mortal lifetime, those that missed out can find it in the next where the Gospel is preached to the post-mortal spirits prior to the resurrection and judgement. In this world, we happen to have many that miss out in their lifetimes. It did not have to play out that way with us, and perhaps on other worlds only a few that miss out.

 

On these other worlds, the Mormon Discussion boards discuss why, if so many receive it in mortality, why couldn’t the plan be designed so that all receive it in their mortal lifetime. As one extra-terrestrial explained it to me (just joking!), it has to do with agency (that is the important thing!), and if the souls that were born into this world had chosen differently from the days of Adam onward, more people would find the Gospel in this life.

[janderich]

I have only pointed out that for the vast majority of God's children, they only receive the gospel after they die.  That is the ONLY thing I have stated.   And the only question I have asked is if THAT was the plan.  Why do you twist what I have stated into something I don't even recognize.

Perhaps I will simply repeat much of what has been said. But let me say it anyway. The Plan of Salvation is not simply to receive ordinances, nor to hear a message about Christ. While these are certainly important, the true nature of the plan is contained in these questions from Elder Bednar:

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following questions: Will my body rule over my spirit, or will my spirit rule over my body? Will I yield to the enticing of the natural man or to the eternal man? That, brothers and sisters, is the test. (Elder Bednar, Ye are the Temple of God, Sep 2001 Rick’s College)

Every person in the world faces this test. There are no exceptions.

Further, the most important message, is not contained in a book made by hands, but within ourselves. Joseph testified:

I have an old edition of the New Testament in the Latin, Hebrew, German and Greek languages. … I thank God that I have got this old book; but I thank him more for the gift of the Holy Ghost. I have got the oldest book in the world; but I have got the oldest book in my heart, even the gift of the Holy Ghost. … The Holy Ghost … is within me, and comprehends more than all the world; and I will associate myself with him. (History of the Church, 6:307–8 )

Then follow that spirit given to every man which comes into the world and you will not be lead astray. Push aside the temptations of the flesh. In so doing you will gain your body and present pure and holy before God. If you do this you will find in the end that you have received all the ordinances necessary, understood all that is required, and accept Christ the Lord in spirit and in truth.

Edited September 18, 2015 by janderich

[Alan]

I'm joining this discussion late as usual, and I haven't yet had time to read all of the posts.

However, I think California Boy asks an interesting question in the OP.

 

My take on this, which I acknowledge is not church doctrine, is that the current version of the PoS is very much a plan B. I suspect the Fall was a disaster and was not supposed to happen, certainly not the way it did. This plunged the earth and it's inhabitants into a situation not of our choosing. When the controversy we call the war in heaven took place, Lucifer and his followers were not cast out and had not become devils. When we chose the Father's plan we could not have known that Lucifer would then take issue with the decision and lead a rebellion. His casting out and banishment to the earth was a game changer and altered the goalposts. We were jumping out of the fire (the war in heaven) and into the frying pan (the war on earth). We were going into enemy territory and we didn't even know there was such a thing when we made our original choice.

 

Earth life absent of evil influences would be very different and the PoS would have worked effectively for most people.

[strappinglad]

We also don't know if this world is the whole picture or if there is a BIG picture tied to the happenings here. When Christ said He must visit " other " sheep we assume that meant other peoples here on earth , perhaps the ten tribes etc. I am not the first to speculate the Christ's atonement covered this world and many others at the same time. If so , it is possible that the percentages of hearers of the gospel are more favorable. Not only do we see through a glass darkly, but from a very earth-centric position. ( stappinglad 4:15 )

[california boy]

Yes, and do you now realize that I said that I misunderstood your question, and then answered the misunderstanding?  I got it now.  We're square.  I should have read the whole thread before shooting off at the keyboard.

Yes.  thanks.  

[california boy]

No, when we die we are still under the mortal condition of forgetfulness regarding the pre-existence.  Until or just until we are resurrected (I don't know if it's a minute or two hours before), then we get it all back.

 

Peter stated this very clearly when he wrote that those in what he called the spirit prison would hear the gospel as if they were still in mortality:

 

The can't be judged according to men in the flesh while in the remembrance of the pre-existence.

 

It isn't important to receive them while in mortality unless you have been chosen to be placed "in the way" of the teaching of the gospel.  I don't believe that we are placed on earth at random.  Some are called to be in mortality where and when the teaching of the gospel will be placed before them.  The vast majority are not.

 

Did you ever see the musical "Saturday's Warrior?"  I thought it was a rather sweet, yet ham-fisted attempt to show that there are those who have been placed on the earth at this particular time because God needed them to fulfill His purposes.  Otherwise, they would have been placed in a different time and place to fulfill other needs.

 

I hope to survive to see the Millennium, and to be able to see the erection of many temples, along with an acceleration of the work of proxy ordinances.  In the meantime I am trying to get as many of my ancestors's work done.  I've pretty much gotten all of them I can get.  Unless there are some breakthroughs on some lines which appear to be dead ends due to records lost.

 

The work that Father has set in motion is far more important than I think many of us realize, and he needs to get as many of us as possible back to His court.  I believe that there is an ultimate purpose that we have not yet been made privy to -- that we don't need to know about -- and that is why so many have been through mortality and why so many more will be coming through.  I find that it is very exciting to consider.

Thanks for your clarification on remembrance of the pre existence.  I wasn't sure on that.  I did see Saturday's Warrior, but it was many years ago when it first came out.  I don't remember that much of it except part of the music.

 

Now to address your point.  If I am understanding your point, what you are suggesting is the the plan was never that God's children would have a chance to receive the gospel in this life.  It was always that they would receive the teachings after they die.  They were always suppose to struggle through their mortal life without understanding or even knowing why they were on earth and what they were suppose to do to return to God in mortality.  Do I have that right?

[california boy]

The plan of salvation is structured so that whether many or few people in this world find the Gospel in their mortal lifetime, those that missed out can find it in the next where the Gospel is preached to the post-mortal spirits prior to the resurrection and judgement. In this world, we happen to have many that miss out in their lifetimes. It did not have to play out that way with us, and perhaps on other worlds only a few that miss out.

 

On these other worlds, the Mormon Discussion boards discuss why, if so many receive it in mortality, why couldn’t the plan be designed so that all receive it in their mortal lifetime. As one extra-terrestrial explained it to me (just joking!), it has to do with agency (that is the important thing!), and if the souls that were born into this world had chosen differently from the days of Adam onward, more people would find the Gospel in this life.

 

I am not quite sure I understand what you are saying.  Are you saying that the plan was never that the vast majority of God's children would ever hear the gospel.  That the plan was for most of God's children to wander throughout their mortal existencenot knowing what this life was for or about?

 

And your second point, are you suggesting that through the fault of others, later generations would be forced into this unknowing condition?  Their earthly experience was based on the lack of faithfulness of past generations?  And that failure occurred very quickly in the history of the world?  That is how the plan played out???

[Mars]

I don't think there's a premium on when you hear the Gospel.  In this life or in the hereafter - it's all the same.  Recall the parable of the (and I can never remember parable names) Guys Who Kept Getting Hired At Different Times Of The Day But All Got Paid The Same.

 

The plan was always that we learned to do what's right according to the light and knowledge we get.  When you take light and knowledge and accept it, you'll get more.

 

Seeing as how the goal is perfect shedding of the natural man in favor of God's will, I would speculate that being born in the covenant and living your whole life in the Gospel gives you no advantage over a piety in any shape or form outside of it.  Filling in knowledge gaps has its advantages.  Making covenants and reaping their blessings do as well.  But Gospel knowledge and covenants are always supplemental to faith and repentance.  In the Gospel or out - acknowledging your own shortcoming and attempting to embrace the divine, however you see it, boils down to faith and repentance.

[Duncan]

They will be judged according to the light that they possessed.  Not necessarily according to the tenets of Hinduism, but according to that part of Hinduism that conformed with the Light of Christ.  Obviously, to hold that person in India accountable to obey the law that he did not possess is unjust.  God is not unjust.  So he won't be held accountable those things he had no knowledge of.

 

I don't know why people in the Church seem to act as if this were rocket science instead of kindergarten, but that's what it is.  Kindergartners know what's fair.  It doesn't take Albert Einstein.

 

well, huey balooey! I know that! I am confused now and I need to eat sonething

[california boy]

I don't think there's a premium on when you hear the Gospel.  In this life or in the hereafter - it's all the same.  Recall the parable of the (and I can never remember parable names) Guys Who Kept Getting Hired At Different Times Of The Day But All Got Paid The Same.

 

The plan was always that we learned to do what's right according to the light and knowledge we get.  When you take light and knowledge and accept it, you'll get more.

 

Seeing as how the goal is perfect shedding of the natural man in favor of God's will, I would speculate that being born in the covenant and living your whole life in the Gospel gives you no advantage over a piety in any shape or form outside of it.  Filling in knowledge gaps has its advantages.  Making covenants and reaping their blessings do as well.  But Gospel knowledge and covenants are always supplemental to faith and repentance.  In the Gospel or out - acknowledging your own shortcoming and attempting to embrace the divine, however you see it, boils down to faith and repentance.

 

So why bother with missionary work.  For that matter, why bother with establishing the church of Christ at all?   Perhaps you are right, which explains why God did not bother to reintroduce the gospel to the world until 1830.  Kinda makes you question the whole importance of the church and living the gospel while on earth though.

[pogi]

So why bother with missionary work.  For that matter, why bother with establishing the church of Christ at all? 

 

Because it is the work of salvation and needs to be done.  I think what Mars is saying is that in the grand eternal scheme of things, does it really matter if your opportunity is in this life or soon after?  The important question is, when your opportunity comes, what are you going to do with it?  

[Mars]

So why bother with missionary work.  For that matter, why bother with establishing the church of Christ at all?   Perhaps you are right, which explains why God did not bother to reintroduce the gospel to the world until 1830.  Kinda makes you question the whole importance of the church and living the gospel while on earth though.

 

i can certainly see that question as being valid.

 

as for me, my answer is because the end goal is still the same - John 17:3.  We can't do that unless we get about the business of evangelizing.  What's more, is that there are blessings to be had in the here and now.  there is work to be done.  people to teach and service and minister to. 

 

i know we're venturing into "are you saying someone else's relationship with God without the Gospel is somehow less than yours?!" territory and that's not really a fair comparison because i have no idea how to quantify mine vs someone else's.  i know mine today is better than it was of yesteryear.  i have a high degree of confidence someone else's will be better tomorrow than it is today if they gain a testimony of the Restored Gospel.  so i do missionary work.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Mars

[Mars]

Because it is the work of salvation and needs to be done.  I think what Mars is saying is that in the grand eternal scheme of things, does it really matter if your opportunity is in this life or soon after?  The important question is, when your opportunity comes, what are you going to do with it?  

 

sure, that works.  not as verbose as is my wont, but hey... 

[Mars]

another thought:

 

california boy, is it fair to characterize your question like so:

 

the church, if it is what it claims to be, and is meant to reach people before they die, is not reaching very many people.  they are going without the Gospel message while on the earth and the missionary effort is largely failing.  the church ought to have more people accepting it and being reached by it, to evidence divine sanction of its claims.

 

?

[VideoGameJunkie]

My Patriarchal blessings says I was one of Heavenly Father's great sons saved for these Latter Days to come forth to accomplish tasks of greatness and of righteousness that will have an important aspect to them in many people's lives. I haven't fully understood what that means or how I became a great son of God saved for these days, but it gives me hope and motivation and a sense of purpose. I wish everyone in the world could receive their Patriarchal blessing.

[Stormin' Mormon]

I don't believe that "receiving the gospel" is a binary question.  It's not an either-or proposition.  You don't either have it or not have it.  Rather, there are multiplicity of truths, light, knowledge, and commandments that in their entirety make up the gospel.  The Fullness of the Gospel is held in trust by the Lord's Kingdom today, but many portions of the gospel are or have been made available to people in all cultures and at all times. 

 

Culture 1 might have gospel elements A, B, and D available to them.

 

Culture 2 might have gospel elements A, B, D, and G available to them.

 

Culture 3 might have gospel elements G, H, K, N, and T.

 

And so on.

 

For most people, the Fullness of the Gospel will not be received until the Spirit World, but all people have elements of the gospel available to them in mortality.  Thus, the purpose of life is to learn to respond to the promptings of the spirit and harmonize one's actions with the light and truth available in that time and place.  As succinctly stated up-thread: we come to earth to learn to develop a conscience.  And also stated up-thread: we come to earth to learn how to put our spirits in charge of our physical bodies.

 

By providing thousands of contexts in which gospel truths are available in thousands of different combinations, the Lord can finely craft and personalize the tests of mortality to meet the capabilities and needs of each of His Children. 

 

Each time the Lord sets up His kingdom on earth, it has a unique role to play in the unfolding drama of human history.  The mission of the Lord's Kingdom in Moses's day was different than the mission of the Lord's Kingdom in Christ's day, and both were different from the mission of the Lord's Kingdom in our day. The behavior of the Lord's Kingdom in any given era is a reflection of the unique mission given to it for that time and place. 

 

The Plan of Salvation never required everyone to receive all the elements of the gospel while in mortality.  Otherwise, proselyting would have been a core function of the Lord's Kingdom in all ages of the World.  It was not. 

 

The Plan of Salvation does require that we live according to the light and truth available to us, whatever our time or place of birth.  We are to be judged by that light, and then, during the final Millennial day, we can receive the ordinances that will officially seal our eternal destiny. 

 

But in order to have ministers to do that final work at the end of the Earth's temporal existence, the Lord's Kingdom needs to build up a people who can live a terrestrial law.  Thus, in our day, the mission of the Church is to prepare a people who can live that law and are thereby prepared to carry out the great and final work of the Millennium.  And that is why we do missionary work in our day and age.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Stormin' Mormon

[Walden]

I don't believe that "receiving the gospel" is a binary question.  It's not an either-or proposition.  You don't either have it or not have it.  Rather, there are multiplicity of truths, light, knowledge, and commandments that in their entirety make up the gospel.  The Fullness of the Gospel is held in trust by the Lord's Kingdom today, but many portions of the gospel are or have been made available to people in all cultures and at all times. 

 

Culture 1 might have gospel elements A, B, and D available to them.

 

Culture 2 might have gospel elements A, B, D, and G available to them.

 

Culture 3 might have gospel elements G, H, K, N, and T.

 

And so on.

 

For most people, the Fullness of the Gospel will not be received until the Spirit World, but all people have elements of the gospel available to them in mortality.  Thus, the purpose of life is to learn to respond to the promptings of the spirit and harmonize one's actions with the light and truth available in that time and place.  As succinctly stated up-thread: we come to earth to learn to develop a conscience.  And also stated up-thread: we come to earth to learn how to put our spirits in charge of our physical bodies.

 

By providing thousands of contexts in which gospel truths are available in thousands of different combinations, the Lord can finely craft the tests of mortality to meet the capabilities and needs of each of His Children. 

 

Each time the Lord sets up His kingdom on earth, it has a unique role to play in the unfolding drama of human history.  The mission of the Lord's Kingdom in Moses's day was different than the mission of the Lord's Kingdom in Christ's day, and both were different from the mission of the Lord's Kingdom in our day. The behavior of the Lord's Kingdom in any given era is a reflection of the unique mission given to it for that time and place. 

 

The Plan of Salvation never required everyone to receive all the elements of the gospel while in mortality.  Otherwise, proselyting would have been a core function of the Lord's Kingdom in all ages of the World.  It was not. 

 

The Plan of Salvation does require that we live according to the light and truth available to us, whatever our time or place of birth.  We are to be judged by that light, and then, during the final Millennial day, we can receive the ordinances that will officially seal our eternal destiny. 

 

But in order to have ministers to do that final work at the end of the Earth's temporal existence, the Lord Kingdom needs to build up a people who can live a terrestrial law.  Thus, in our day, the mission of the Church is to prepare a people who can live that law and are thereby prepared to carry out the great and final work of the Millennium.

 

The Plan of Salvation does require that we live according to the light and truth available to us, whatever our time or place of birth.  We are to be judged by that light, and then, during the final Millennial day, we can receive the ordinances that will officially seal our eternal destiny. 

 

If God is omnipotent/all-knowing, then he is already aware of the decisions that we will make in our earthly life, before we have made those decisions ourselves and independent of whatever light/truth is presented to us. God would thus already know which kingdom we will receive prior to us ever making an earthly decision.....so why the need for judgement? God knows exactly what kingdom I will inherit from the day I am born.

[Sanpitch]

My Patriarchal blessings says I was one of Heavenly Father's great sons saved for these Latter Days to come forth to accomplish tasks of greatness and of righteousness that will have an important aspect to them in many people's lives. I haven't fully understood what that means or how I became a great son of God saved for these days, but it gives me hope and motivation and a sense of purpose. I wish everyone in the world could receive their Patriarchal blessing.

 

You might take that with a dash of salt, they don't always turn out as expected.  My granddad's blessing said he would live until, "Christ shall appear with his saints....."  "And if thou silt prepare thyself thou shall be might and strong in the Lord.  So much that the wicked shall fear and tremble and go away for fear thou might strike them with the power of God.  The humble shall rejoice exceedingly and draw near to receive they blessing."

 

He served a mission and did everything right but got kicked in the head by a horse and died of infection in 1920 at the age of about 46 years old.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Ya there are other things in my Patriarchal blessing that I wonder if they'll ever come true and if they don't is it my own fault?

[Stormin' Mormon]

The Plan of Salvation does require that we live according to the light and truth available to us, whatever our time or place of birth.  We are to be judged by that light, and then, during the final Millennial day, we can receive the ordinances that will officially seal our eternal destiny. 

 

If God is omnipotent/all-knowing, then he is already aware of the decisions that we will make in our earthly life, before we have made those decisions ourselves and independent of whatever light/truth is presented to us. God would thus already know which kingdom we will receive prior to us ever making an earthly decision.....so why the need for judgement? God knows exactly what kingdom I will inherit from the day I am born.

 

God could have divided his Children into celestial, terrestrial, and telestial tiers without the need for a test.  But how many in a higher tier would have doubted that they belonged, and how many in a lower tier would have thought they were unfairly judged. 

I am convinced (though this is not doctrine) that much of the Final Judgement will come from ourselves.  The Plan of Salvation isn't about proving to God who we are, it is about proving it to ourselves.   

Edited September 18, 2015 by Stormin' Mormon

[Calm]

The Plan of Salvation does require that we live according to the light and truth available to us, whatever our time or place of birth.  We are to be judged by that light, and then, during the final Millennial day, we can receive the ordinances that will officially seal our eternal destiny. 

 

If God is omnipotent/all-knowing, then he is already aware of the decisions that we will make in our earthly life, before we have made those decisions ourselves and independent of whatever light/truth is presented to us. God would thus already know which kingdom we will receive prior to us ever making an earthly decision.....so why the need for judgement? God knows exactly what kingdom I will inherit from the day I am born.

Because we will not become those people until we go through the process of learning and choosing.

Judgment based on who we could have been if we went through mortality, but occurring when we didn't would be unjust.

[Robert F. Smith]

This seems to make it out to be a really bad plan for those who are Mormon then doesn't it ? Missionaries should be telling people not to join the church! Wait till the next life.

Haha, it does seem like an avoidance response would be advisable.  Avoiding responsibility is attractive to many.  After all, where much is given, much is expected.  However, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

Life is a great adventure, and avoiding pitfalls also means avoiding the adventure, or of the satisfaction of a job well done.  For a young man to go on a mission is a very hard and trying experience, just like enlistment in the military.  Yet it is precisely under such pressures that real achievements and growth occur.  If a life is filled with no risks, it is an empty and meaningless life.

 

There is nothing quite as intoxicating as being with the Saints on Sunday and being filled with the Holy Spirit.  Sometimes I think I've died and gone to heaven.  I know many others who feel the same.

[Robert F. Smith]

So why bother with missionary work.  For that matter, why bother with establishing the church of Christ at all?   Perhaps you are right, which explains why God did not bother to reintroduce the gospel to the world until 1830.  Kinda makes you question the whole importance of the church and living the gospel while on earth though.

It may have something to do with the Eschaton (End-time) coming soon, and getting prepared for that.  Need 144,000 high priests for a particular function.  Somebody has to set the table for the Grand Eschatological Banquet.  Only in modern times could all that be done expeditiously.  Living the Gospel has to do with receiving light and knowledge (esoteric words) and adhering to it.  If you don't have it, you can't be expected to adhere to it.  These are mere tautologies, of course.  God needs his Church and his priesthood to perform certain functions which are absolutely required.  Not everyone on Earth needs to be part of it for it to function effectively.

[Robert F. Smith]

.............................................................................

.........................................  If I am understanding your point, what you are suggesting is the the plan was never that God's children would have a chance to receive the gospel in this life.  It was always that they would receive the teachings after they die.  They were always suppose to struggle through their mortal life without understanding or even knowing why they were on earth and what they were suppose to do to return to God in mortality.  Do I have that right?

You have a penchant for either/or dichotomization, californiaboy, where it is inappropriate.  It is both/and most of the time.  You also like to say "never" and "always," when they are likewise inapplicable.

[Teancum]

Temple work does need to be done by someone so the Church needs to be big enough to do the work.  I just don't get too worked up on how big the Church is nor how many leave.  If the Lord wanted millions of people to join the Church in one day, he would just have a pillar of fire come down and rest on say the LA temple for an evening.   It is clear to me that there is no pressing need by God to have masses of people join the Church.  The Church probably could not even handle the overload of new members.  As members we just need to do our jobs but we need not to stress about things too much. 

 

 

I think you missed my point entirely. This also leads to another conclusion far different than  the one you choose above.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Teancum