So What Is The Real Plan Of God. Or Is The Plan Of Salvation A Complete Disaster.

[carbon dioxide]

This seems to make it out to be a really bad plan for those who are Mormon then doesn't it ? Missionaries should be telling people not to join the church! Wait till the next life.

Temple work does need to be done by someone so the Church needs to be big enough to do the work.  I just don't get too worked up on how big the Church is nor how many leave.  If the Lord wanted millions of people to join the Church in one day, he would just have a pillar of fire come down and rest on say the LA temple for an evening.   It is clear to me that there is no pressing need by God to have masses of people join the Church.  The Church probably could not even handle the overload of new members.  As members we just need to do our jobs but we need not to stress about things too much. 

[The Nehor]

It could be said that being born in the Church actually is a disadvantage.  We are given so much light and knowledge that we are far more accountable for the same bad acts that those who have never heard it.  In some situations, probably the worst thing we can do is tell them the gospel as then they would become accountable.

 

I have heard this and I don't believe a word of it. It is so defeatist. Not having the gospel may save you some pain but it cuts you off from joys as well.

[california boy]

It is far more successful than you understand. Lets just look at one group. Those who have died before age 8 or accountability.  Hundreds of millions over history.  All going to the celestial kingdom.  The Celestial Kingdom is well populated.  No need to worry. 

But those who have died before the age of 8 would have gone to the celestial kingdom whether the church was restored or not.  It still doesn't change the fact that the vast majority will have nothing to do with the plan of salvation while on the earth.  According to your thinking, the more successful plan would have been more children dying before reaching the age of 8.  Does that really sound like a plan???

[california boy]

It could be said that being born in the Church actually is a disadvantage.  We are given so much light and knowledge that we are far more accountable for the same bad acts that those who have never heard it.  In some situations, probably the worst thing we can do is tell them the gospel as then they would become accountable.

 

I agree.  It is sounding more like a curse than a blessing. What does that say about the missionary program?

[california boy]

I have heard this and I don't believe a word of it. It is so defeatist. Not having the gospel may save you some pain but it cuts you off from joys as well.

 

So why is that joy limited to .000001% of God's children if it is so desirable?

[california boy]

Temple work does need to be done by someone so the Church needs to be big enough to do the work.  I just don't get too worked up on how big the Church is nor how many leave.  If the Lord wanted millions of people to join the Church in one day, he would just have a pillar of fire come down and rest on say the LA temple for an evening.   It is clear to me that there is no pressing need by God to have masses of people join the Church.  The Church probably could not even handle the overload of new members.  As members we just need to do our jobs but we need not to stress about things too much. 

 

 

So what is the point of being a member of the church or even establishing the church?  Like you said, if God just needs warm mortal bodies to do temple work, a pillar of fire above the LA temple would do the job in a day.  Seems like a much more effective plan.  And what job do members need to do?  Worry about the .000001% of God's children that are lucky (or as you said earlier possibly unlucky) enough to find the gospel??

[california boy]

The purpose of Earthlife is not to hear the Gospel preached, but to live according to whatever law you were born to.  Learn how to have a conscience.  Learn how to use your body, how to deal with others.  Everyone needs to experience that.  The ordinances can be taken care of later.  I don't understand where the "catastrophic failure" enters in . . . 

 

How one learns to treat others is for the most part based on the society that they live in.  There are some societies that teach men they can treat women and children like their private property.  If a man wants to abuse his wife or children, that is their right to do so.  There are other societies that teach it is ok to stone someone to death or set fire to them or behead them for a mistake that person made.  It doesn't even have to be a mistake.  Think of the Salem witch trials.  The inquisition.  The Roman rule.  People beieving that slavery was ok with God for centuries.  Or that slavery was just a natural part of conquering other nations.  That kind of environment was not teaching anyone how to deal with others in the way I believe God wants us to treat others.  

 

The point is, how we learn to deal with others is primarily taught by the society that we grow up in.  How can that possibly be some kind of purpose of Earth life where there is no control or even guidance of the gospel in teaching what God expects from his children?  The catastrophic failure would be if expectations are that we should learn to become like God through living the gospel.  The catastrophic failure is when only ,00000001% of the population receives those teachings and ordinances.   The rest are left with guessing what God allows and what is not allowed.  For the most part, they guessed wrong.

[filovirus]

It could be said that being born in the Church actually is a disadvantage.  We are given so much light and knowledge that we are far more accountable for the same bad acts that those who have never heard it.  In some situations, probably the worst thing we can do is tell them the gospel as then they would become accountable.

18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

[Tacenda]

Then you can become a god without an earth? From the same source:

Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

I thought this too until two weeks ago in Relief Society an older member, my RS president's mother, rose her hand and said she has a lot more time to study the gospel and scriptures at her age. And said we'll have a lot of time to prepare before we have our own planets. I kept wondering if anyone caught that. I have a very young ward. Edited September 18, 2015 by Tacenda

[JAHS]

Since the time of Christ, the gospel has not even been on the earth for most of the time, except in corrupt forms at best.  Then in 1830 the gospel was restored to the earth once again.  But since the founding of the church, the percentage of people in the world who have found the gospel and embraced it is statistically .000001% or some other incredibly small number.  To claim that joining the church is the path that leads God's children back to eternal life means that the plan of salvation was laid out for a VERY small tiny group of people that are hardly a blip on the screen.  And of that tiny blip, how many are even attending church?

 

So the only obvious conclusion one could possibly draw is that the Plan of Salvation laid out in the pre existence is either a complete and utter failure or that plan of finding the gospel in this life and working out one's salvation was only met for a tiny tiny fraction of God's children.  So what about the other 99.99999% of God's children? It seems like a lot of work to create the earth and run all of us through this process for so few tiny results.  The vast majority of people never even make it to the starting line.  Heck, they never even hear the message of where the starting gate is.  They are born, live their lives and die with no knowledge of this wonderful plan.

 

So what is the real plan of God?  Was this whole process developed just so that after men die, they can be put in a place and taught the gospel then?  Is that the plan?  Was finding the gospel on earth even a part of the plan?  What do you think is the "real" plan of God.  Exactly how will the majority of God's children have a chance at exaltation?  If it is all about the next life and opportunities to hear the gospel there, then why even bother with spending a lifetime on earth?  What are your thoughts?  Is the church statistically even that important in the whole scheme of things?  

 

 

 The .000001% figure is explained in the following scripture:

 

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14)

 

I believe this life is where God's few noble and great ones (Abr 3: 22-23) find the Gospel. They are the ones God uses in this life and the next life to help bring the Gospel to all the others who did not have the opportunity here. This life is a testing ground for them.  The experiences and faith those noble and great ones develop here on earth; keeping both their first and second estates, makes them strong in the Gospel; leaders in God's kingdom; with the ability to spearhead the efforts in the next life. And it could be that only a few will accept it there, but somehow all will hear about it. 

Edited September 18, 2015 by JAHS

[VideoGameJunkie]

When looking at the numbers in the world it makes me feel special to be a temple endowed one of 5 million actually active LDS out of the 7 billion plus people in the world. I'd take those odds any day. Makes me feel like I was born being a lottery winner.

[The Nehor]

So why is that joy limited to .000001% of God's children if it is so desirable?

 

I'm special.

 

More realistically very few people want it.

[Stargazer]

Note that I voted the OP up, not because I am on the "side" of the question, or agree with the negative attitude in it, but because the question is reasonable, even from someone who was taught enough to know better, and it needs an answer.  The very first response is a good one in fact.

[Stargazer]

I'm with California Boy. All the explaining and justifying doesn't change the fact that the whole plan of salvation on this Earth that revolves around Joseph Smith's restoration of the Gospel is just a tiny detail in the story of the Earth's people. In the overall picture it amounts to almost nothing. As I mentioned a few months ago, why wouldn't there have been a book of knowledge for all the Earth's people in their own language, all through history that explained what people need to know. Then there wouldn't be thousands of Christian Churches of different faiths and billions of Muslims and Hindus and on and on. It never made sense to me and if it doesn't make sense it is a little hard to believe.

 

What? Abandon all hope, ye who enter herein? 

 

Accept CB's depressive "gospel" and we're all doomed.  For there is no salvation anywhere.  As you point out, thousands of Christian churches, many who don't accept the others' ability to dispense salvation, and then there are all the non-Christian ones.  Islam does not allow for salvation of those who have passed on, and neither do any of the other Christian denominations.

 

So we're totally sunk.  End of story.

 

Why don't you ask God why he didn't put the Gospel up in blazing lights in the heaven, which is what you and CB and others want Him to have done.  Has any of you ever thought what that would have meant?

 

The Plan of Salvation as revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith says that every one of us had the opportunity to reject a very public Gospel in the Pre-existence.  It was in blazing lights, we knew who God was and we could rebel against light and choose darkness, or we could accept light and the opportunity to be tested in an environment where we would be tested TO SEE WHAT WE WOULD DO WHEN WE WEREN'T DIRECTLY UNDER FATHER'S SUPERVISION.  I emphasize this because if the Gospel was put blazing into plain sight the way you think it should have been, this mortal life would be virtually identical to the test we had in the Pre-existence.  And there'd still be the need to see what we would do when we weren't being watched (or thought we weren't being watched).  This part of the test cannot be performed under the circumstances that CB and you posit.  Most of us in mortality go through it with only the Light of Christ to guide us.  It's not hard, really it isn't.  Virtually all human cultures have similar moral principles that grow out of the Light of Christ.

 

Free agency is the reason.  Without it there is no test.

 

When the entire scenario is wound up and complete, after all of Father's children will have the opportunity to hear and accept the gospel, and repent for what they did wrong, then Father will know without doubt who can be trusted to do the right thing, and those -- including those who never heard the gospel in this life -- will receive Eternal Life and do all that they saw that the Father do.

 

If you want to be dragged around by your nose and call that a fair test, well, that's a nice opinion you have going, but it doesn't make any kind of sense.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

I get that but wouldn't say a person born in India in the 1200's have the gospel preached to them in the next life, would they still be without law?

 

They will be judged according to the light that they possessed.  Not necessarily according to the tenets of Hinduism, but according to that part of Hinduism that conformed with the Light of Christ.  Obviously, to hold that person in India accountable to obey the law that he did not possess is unjust.  God is not unjust.  So he won't be held accountable those things he had no knowledge of.

 

I don't know why people in the Church seem to act as if this were rocket science instead of kindergarten, but that's what it is.  Kindergartners know what's fair.  It doesn't take Albert Einstein.

[Stargazer]

It just seems that 5 million active members out of 7 billion people isn't good numbers for these Latter Days and growth in world population and the evils we're seeing.

 

It's worse than that.  There was a time when there were a couple billion on the earth and there was NO Church of Christ with His authority.

 

Numbers is not important.  Faithfulness to what you know or believe is true is important.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I'm having a hard time taking this question seriously since the OP is so wildly inaccurate that I have to wonder if it is intentional.

 

Currently, baptised members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints make up approximately 0.209 per cent of the world's population, which, though small, is 209,000 times greater than the '.000001% or some other incredibly small number' California Boy keeps tossing around.

 

What does the situation look like in the nation that remains the focus of the Church's missionary efforts?

 

 

So in America, the percentage of people who self-identify as Church members is ten times greater than the world average for those age 50 and over, 15 times greater for those between the ages of 18 and 49.

 

I live in a predominantly secular nation with a much shorter history of missionary effort, and nonetheless baptised Latter-day Saints now make up 0.5 per cent of the population here ... and 2.22 per cent of all people in attendance at a church each week.

 

Are there still huge segments of the earth's population untouched by LDS outreach? Yes, but where established, missionary work works. And as the Church grows in numbers and strength, the Lord will, as He always has done, open up more opportunities for our missionaries and members to reach His children with the message of the Restoration.

 

In the meantime, everything else said by others is right: this life is not wasted as long as it exposes people to good and evil. If the choice to embrace the Lord and His Kingdom is a future one for many -- and remember, at some point it's been a future choice for everyone who's made it -- it nonetheless has to be based on both knowledge and desire, which are created only through the mortal experience.

 

One last point: Though demographers disagree with each other, one whom I studied as a masters student argued that half of all the people who've ever lived on the earth are alive right now, with half of all those who've died having lived in the past 100 years. Even if not entirely accurate, the reality of the population curve behind these figures is significant for both missionary work and temple work in the 'dispensation of the fullness of times'.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan

[california boy]

I'm having a hard time taking this question seriously since the OP is so wildly inaccurate that I have to wonder if it is intentional.

 

Currently, baptised members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints make up approximately 0.209 per cent of the world's population, which, though small, is 209,000 times greater than the '.000001% or some other incredibly small number' California Boy keeps tossing around.

 

What does the situation look like in the nation that remains the focus of the Church's missionary work?

 

 

So in America, the percentage of people who self-identify as Church members is ten times greater than the world average for those age 50 and over, 15 times greater for those between the ages of 18 and 49.

 

I live in a predominantly secular nation with a much shorter history of missionary effort, and nonetheless baptised Latter-day Saints now make up 0.5 per cent of the population here ... and 2.22 per cent of all people in attendance at a church each week.

 

Are there still huge segments of the earth's population untouched by LDS outreach? Yes, but where established, missionary work works. And as the Church grows in numbers and strength, the Lord will, as He always has done, open up more opportunities for our missionaries and members to reach His children with the message of the Restoration.

 

In the meantime, everything else said by others is right: this life is not wasted as long as it exposes people to good and evil. If the choice to embrace the Lord and His Kingdom is a future one for many, it nonetheless has to be based on desire, and desire is created only through experience.

 

One last point: Though demographers disagree with each other, one whom I studied as a masters student argued that half of all the people who've ever lived on the earth are alive right now, with half of all those who've died having lived in the past 100 years. Even if not entirely accurate, the reality of the population curve behind these figures is significant for both missionary work and temple work in the 'dispensation of the fullness of times'.

 

Here is a Washington Post article speculating on the number of people who have ever lived.  The  Population Reference Bureau, put that number at about 108 billion.  Active members of the church is by most accounts around 5 million.  Being baptized does not mean you will be exalted.  You do the math.  It is not even close to 1% of the earths total population.  I don't have any idea what the actual numbers are.  But I do know, it is a drop in the bucket of the total of God's children.  It is hard to take you seriously if you are trying to make the case that the total number of church members is statistically of an significants at all.

 

My only point in the op and in this discussion is that the actual number of God's children that have had the opportunity to live the gospel and receive the ordinances in this life is statistically insignificant.  Do you really dispute this fact?  Is it really so easy to dismiss the question I have asked because I don't know exact numbers we are dealing with?  Can you really claim that the vast majority of mankind have not had to wait until after death to even hear of the plan of salvation?

[california boy]

Note that I voted the OP up, not because I am on the "side" of the question, or agree with the negative attitude in it, but because the question is reasonable, even from someone who was taught enough to know better, and it needs an answer.  The very first response is a good one in fact.

 

I am sorry you feel that my question was posed in a negative attitude.  It was not intended to be negative.  I only wanted to explore the idea that statistically, the vast majority of God's children have had no opportunity to participate in the plan of salvation during their mortal lives.  Virtually almost all of God's children will receive that plan AFTER they die.  So just how important is it to accept the gospel in this life?  I am just asking the question.  

[Stargazer]

Here is a Washington Post article speculating on the number of people who have ever lived.  The  Population Reference Bureau, put that number at about 108 billion.  Active members of the church is by most accounts around 5 million.  Being baptized does not mean you will be exalted.  You do the math.  It is not even close to 1% of the earths total population.  I don't have any idea what the actual numbers are.  But I do know, it is a drop in the bucket of the total of God's children.  It is hard to take you seriously if you are trying to make the case that the total number of church members is statistically of an significants at all.

 

My only point in the op and in this discussion is that the actual number of God's children that have had the opportunity to live the gospel and receive the ordinances in this life is statistically insignificant.  Do you really dispute this fact?  Is it really so easy to dismiss the question I have asked because I don't know exact numbers we are dealing with?  Can you really claim that the vast majority of mankind have not had to wait until after death to even hear of the plan of salvation?

 

Are you a baker?  Ever bake bread?  How much leaven does it take to make the bread rise?  A very small amount.

 

This is the point that is trying to be made:

• we were all sent her to live lives, make choices, and die;
• one of us will come here, teach important principles, and will then be sacrificed so that the rest might be resurrected and forgiven of their sins;
• a few of us will be raised up in order to build up a religious kingdom, by both procreation and recruiting from the larger number, so that
  • the truth may be known upon the face of the earth
  • the dead in body may receive the needed ordinances
    • from those who live the gospel upon the earth
    • and be taught by those who lived the gospel upon the earth

When faithful members of the Church die they don't go on vacation!  There are billions of dead who need to hear the gospel, and God must send those who already know about it, because all of the ordinances for and all of the teaching to these people must come from the ones who were their brothers and sisters in mortality. 

 

Does this help at all?

[Stargazer]

I am sorry you feel that my question was posed in a negative attitude.  It was not intended to be negative.  I only wanted to explore the idea that statistically, the vast majority of God's children have had no opportunity to participate in the plan of salvation during their mortal lives.  Virtually almost all of God's children will receive that plan AFTER they die.  So just how important is it to accept the gospel in this life?  I am just asking the question.  

 

OK, I misunderstood your OP, but started getting where you were coming from later on in the thread.  It's always dangerous to response when you only THINK you got the point.  The one I was responding to, however, was definitely being bleak and dark in outlook.  May my later answer provide a better understanding.

[california boy]

What? Abandon all hope, ye who enter herein? 

 

Accept CB's depressive "gospel" and we're all doomed.  For there is no salvation anywhere.  As you point out, thousands of Christian churches, many who don't accept the others' ability to dispense salvation, and then there are all the non-Christian ones.  Islam does not allow for salvation of those who have passed on, and neither do any of the other Christian denominations.

 

So we're totally sunk.  End of story.

 

Why don't you ask God why he didn't put the Gospel up in blazing lights in the heaven, which is what you and CB and others want Him to have done.  Has any of you ever thought what that would have meant?

 

The Plan of Salvation as revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith says that every one of us had the opportunity to reject a very public Gospel in the Pre-existence.  It was in blazing lights, we knew who God was and we could rebel against light and choose darkness, or we could accept light and the opportunity to be tested in an environment where we would be tested TO SEE WHAT WE WOULD DO WHEN WE WEREN'T DIRECTLY UNDER FATHER'S SUPERVISION.  I emphasize this because if the Gospel was put blazing into plain sight the way you think it should have been, this mortal life would be virtually identical to the test we had in the Pre-existence.  And there'd still be the need to see what we would do when we weren't being watched (or thought we weren't being watched).  This part of the test cannot be performed under the circumstances that CB and you posit.  Most of us in mortality go through it with only the Light of Christ to guide us.  It's not hard, really it isn't.  Virtually all human cultures have similar moral principles that grow out of the Light of Christ.

 

Free agency is the reason.  Without it there is no test.

 

When the entire scenario is wound up and complete, after all of Father's children will have the opportunity to hear and accept the gospel, and repent for what they did wrong, then Father will know without doubt who can be trusted to do the right thing, and those -- including those who never heard the gospel in this life -- will receive Eternal Life and do all that they saw that the Father do.

 

If you want to be dragged around by your nose and call that a fair test, well, that's a nice opinion you have going, but it doesn't make any kind of sense.

 

You are misrepresenting what I have stated.  I never said we are all doomed.  I never said  there was no salvation.  And I never said God should put the Gospel up in blazing lights in the heaven.  I never said all of us would not get an opportunity to accept the gospel.  I have only pointed out that for the vast majority of God's children, they only receive the gospel after they die.  That is the ONLY thing I have stated.   And the only question I have asked is if THAT was the plan.  Why do you twist what I have stated into something I don't even recognize.  

[california boy]

Are you a baker?  Ever bake bread?  How much leaven does it take to make the bread rise?  A very small amount.

 

This is the point that is trying to be made:

• we were all sent her to live lives, make choices, and die;
• one of us will come here, teach important principles, and will then be sacrificed so that the rest might be resurrected and forgiven of their sins;
• a few of us will be raised up in order to build up a religious kingdom, by both procreation and recruiting from the larger number, so that
  • the truth may be known upon the face of the earth
  • the dead in body may receive the needed ordinances
    • from those who live the gospel upon the earth
    • and be taught by those who lived the gospel upon the earth

When faithful members of the Church die they don't go on vacation!  There are billions of dead who need to hear the gospel, and God must send those who already know about it, because all of the ordinances for and all of the teaching to these people must come from the ones who were their brothers and sisters in mortality. 

 

Does this help at all?

 

Well I am not a baker but I get your point.  You feel that having less than 1% of God's children hear the gospel, accept it and live it is how the rest of all mankind will hear the gospel and receive the ordinances.  Do I have your point correct?

 

If I do, I have one question for you that might help with this.  Do all of God's children remember the pre existence after they die?  If so, won't they already know what the gospel was suppose to be while they were here on earth?  I am just asking.  I am trying to  work your answer out into how it all fits together.  

 

And your second point.  If 99% of mankind is to receive the ordinances after they die, then how important is it to receive them while on earth?  

[Stargazer]

You are misrepresenting what I have stated.  I never said we are all doomed.  I never said  there was no salvation.  And I never said God should put the Gospel up in blazing lights in the heaven.  I never said all of us would not get an opportunity to accept the gospel.  I have only pointed out that for the vast majority of God's children, they only receive the gospel after they die.  That is the ONLY thing I have stated.   And the only question I have asked is if THAT was the plan.  Why do you twist what I have stated into something I don't even recognize.  

 

Yes, and do you now realize that I said that I misunderstood your question, and then answered the misunderstanding?  I got it now.  We're square.  I should have read the whole thread before shooting off at the keyboard.

[Stargazer]

Well I am not a baker but I get your point.  You feel that having less than 1% of God's children hear the gospel, accept it and live it is how the rest of all mankind will hear the gospel and receive the ordinances.  Do I have your point correct?

 

If I do, I have one question for you that might help with this.  Do all of God's children remember the pre existence after they die?  If so, won't they already know what the gospel was suppose to be while they were here on earth?  I am just asking.  I am trying to  work your answer out into how it all fits together.  

 

And your second point.  If 99% of mankind is to receive the ordinances after they die, then how important is it to receive them while on earth?  

 

No, when we die we are still under the mortal condition of forgetfulness regarding the pre-existence.  Until or just until we are resurrected (I don't know if it's a minute or two hours before), then we get it all back.

 

Peter stated this very clearly when he wrote that those in what he called the spirit prison would hear the gospel as if they were still in mortality:

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1 Peter 4:6

 

 

The can't be judged according to men in the flesh while in the remembrance of the pre-existence.

 

It isn't important to receive them while in mortality unless you have been chosen to be placed "in the way" of the teaching of the gospel.  I don't believe that we are placed on earth at random.  Some are called to be in mortality where and when the teaching of the gospel will be placed before them.  The vast majority are not.

 

Did you ever see the musical "Saturday's Warrior?"  I thought it was a rather sweet, yet ham-fisted attempt to show that there are those who have been placed on the earth at this particular time because God needed them to fulfill His purposes.  Otherwise, they would have been placed in a different time and place to fulfill other needs.

 

I hope to survive to see the Millennium, and to be able to see the erection of many temples, along with an acceleration of the work of proxy ordinances.  In the meantime I am trying to get as many of my ancestors's work done.  I've pretty much gotten all of them I can get.  Unless there are some breakthroughs on some lines which appear to be dead ends due to records lost.

 

The work that Father has set in motion is far more important than I think many of us realize, and he needs to get as many of us as possible back to His court.  I believe that there is an ultimate purpose that we have not yet been made privy to -- that we don't need to know about -- and that is why so many have been through mortality and why so many more will be coming through.  I find that it is very exciting to consider.