Stargazer Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I'm not saying that. I've only quoted LDS literature that clearly says that no one except those who truly repent will receive grace. Q. How many commandments do I have to keep? Q. How often do I have to keep them?In all fairness, you need to uncork about your own take on salvation. You've figuratively flooded the landscape with your taking Latter-day scripture and General Conference talks and using them to try to beat us about the head and ears with what you think are compelling contradictions, but which are not. I get your point, so you don't really have to get out and push.So, before we go any further, what does BlahBlahBlah understand about the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and how to obtain it? By all means, enlighten us. If you please. Before you respond to the rest of my post, below. -----With that out of the way, in another thread you wrote: (In the quad) Bible Dictionary P 697This Grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.Divine Grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings. However, Grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence, the explanation, "it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne 25:23) It is truly the Grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible.The definition appears to me to be an "if, then statement. IF you give your total best effort, THEN you can receive grace. So what does "total effort" involve anyway?In the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard, the householder goes out early to hire laborers to help him bring in his harvest, covenanting with them for a denarius for the day's work. He hires some, but later sees that he will need more, and he goes into town again to hire more, promising them that he will pay what will be right, until he has gone into town several times to hire laborers, some of whom come very late to the harvest, even as late as the 11th hour. When the harvest is complete, he pays all of them the same, a denarius, which is what he had contracted to pay the first laborers.The import of the parable is that all who labor in the vineyard will receive the same reward, regardless of how early, how late, or how long they labored in it. The reward offered in reality is that through the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, all who accept Him and do the minimum required will receive forgiveness of their sins. And what's the "labor" that is to be performed? That they have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of their sins, and are baptized by water and by the spirit.Now, I know that there are Evangelical Christians who try to escape the "works" of water and spirit baptism, perhaps because of what you in another place described as the "filthy rags" of their doing "good". But it is actually inescapable, if what Jesus told Nicodemus was not a lie. If even Jesus was baptized, "to fulfill all righteousness", then nobody can escape it and claim to be "born again." Are you going to deny that being baptized is a "work"? Or deny that it is essential, i.e. required for Salvation? I guess that's one way to escape the inevitable: deny the obvious. But I digress.I've looked over your posting history tonight, and thankfully you had only posted 20 times so far, and it's very clear what you are trying to do. May I gently suggest that it won't work? Trying to overturn LDS doctrine and practice by throwing at us scripture and general authority quotations that you do not understand will, at best, entice some of us to try to convince you that you have misunderstood what you're quoting. I dare say you will confuse a few of us, who don't know where you are coming from. The problem is, while I do believe that you are sincere, and that you believe what you believe very wholeheartedly, you do not understand what we believe, although you think you do.I hope that you are not a proponent of "cheap grace", wherein all you have to do is confess Jesus with your mouth, and afterwards continue to rob banks, rape women, murder to get gain, and so on, until the day you die, when Jesus will welcome you into His kingdom with open arms. Or are you?I'll probably get pushback on this from my fellow Latter-day Saints, but as I have come to understand it, we believe that salvation, in the sense of forgiveness of sin, is to be obtained solely through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, and baptism of water and spirit. On the day of Pentecost when the multitude asked Peter what they should do, that is how he responded. I think that Peter is a better authority than you, so I will rely upon his word over yours. You know what faith is, I'm sure, and likewise baptism. I'm not sure you know what the baptism of the spirit is, but leaving that aside, what do you understand that Peter meant by repentance? What is it? Is it a work? Is it one of those filthy rags you were talking about? And if it is, what of it? And what about keeping the commandments? Obeying Christ? ("If you love me, keep my commandments") Are the commandments that Jesus spoke of keeping, are they "works" or "filthy rags" that we can just disregard? If we've repented (turned back from) a sin, but then commit the sin again, are we still covered, or do we have to repent again? And what are sins? Surely this has nothing to do with the Law of Moses, which Christ fulfilled, but something else? Or else why did Paul take care to write about such things like drinking blood that was offered to idols, if it's something that you must not do? Or this one, from 1 Cor 4:1 ... 1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.He's not bringing it up because it's something praiseworthy is he? He's got a problem with it, clearly. But why is Paul getting all in their faces about this matter when, as you well know, the Saints at Corinth had already accepted Christ as their Savior, and could confidently report (as many evangelicals proudly do: "I was saved on such-and-such a date"? In fact, Paul is concerned with something, but what is it? It couldn't be the Law of Moses which Christ fulfilled, could it? Ah ha! I found the correlation in fact. It's Leviticus 18:8 ... 8 The nakedness of thy father’s wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father’s nakedness.Don't get confused about the nakedness thing. It's not the state of undress that is at issue, it's sexual intercourse. "See me naked" is a Biblical euphemism for intercourse. Even the Chinese use it as a euphemism for sex.So, with Paul invoking Leviticus for the Corinthians, what are we to understand about this from a "sinfulness" perspective? Is having sex with your father's wife something sinful that needs to be repented for, as Paul and the Law of Moses seem to suggest, or is it, like the Pirate Code in Pirates of the Caribbean, more of a Guideline than a Rule, for the Saved Christian? If a Christian who has already been saved, does he or she never have to worry about sin from then on? If not, why not, and why does Paul bring up a sin as if it were important, when it really isn't? Or is repentance something that even a Saved Christian have to worry about?
pogi Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) D&C 1: 31,3231For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;32Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven ;April 1995 Finding Forgiveness Richard G.ScottObedience to all the commandments. Full obedience brings the complete power of the gospel into your life with strength to focus on the abandonment of specific sins. It includes things you might not initially consider part of repentance, such as attending meetings, paying tithing, giving service, and forgiving others. The Lord said: “He that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.” 13 You misinterpret these teachings. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/07/young-adults/becoming-perfect-in-christ?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/manual/preparing-for-exaltation-teachers-manual/lesson-22-striving-for-perfection?lang=eng We believe the same as this Evangelical Christian scholar, Millard Erickson, who says: "Certain difficulties attach to assuming [we can achieve freedom from sin], however. One is that it seems contradictory to repeatedly exhort Christians to a victorious spotless life unless it is a real possibility. But does this necessarily follow? We may have a standard, an ideal, toward which we press, but which we do not expect to reach within a finite period of time. It has been observed that no one has ever reached the North Star by sailing or flying toward it. That does not change the fact that it is still the mark toward which we press, our measure of “northerliness.” Similarly, although we may never be perfectly sanctified within this life, we shall be in eternity beyond and hence should presently aim to arrive as close to complete sanctification as we can." --- Christian Theology, 2nd Edition, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI, p. 986 Edited October 9, 2015 by pogi
ERayR Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I'm not saying that. I've only quoted LDS literature that clearly says that no one except those who truly repent will receive grace. Q. How many commandments do I have to keep? Q. How often do I have to keep them? You keep making the same error. Giving us your interpretation of LDS scriptures and doctrine when you haven't the slightest idea what they mean. Your time might be better spent figuring out what you believe. 1
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) In all fairness, you need to uncork about your own take on salvation. You've figuratively flooded the landscape with your taking Latter-day scripture and General Conference talks and using them to try to beat us about the head and ears with what you think are compelling contradictions, but which are not. I get your point, so you don't really have to get out and push.So, before we go any further, what does BlahBlahBlah understand about the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and how to obtain it? By all means, enlighten us. If you please. Before you respond to the rest of my post, below. -----With that out of the way, in another thread you wrote: In the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard, the householder goes out early to hire laborers to help him bring in his harvest, covenanting with them for a denarius for the day's work. He hires some, but later sees that he will need more, and he goes into town again to hire more, promising them that he will pay what will be right, until he has gone into town several times to hire laborers, some of whom come very late to the harvest, even as late as the 11th hour. When the harvest is complete, he pays all of them the same, a denarius, which is what he had contracted to pay the first laborers.The import of the parable is that all who labor in the vineyard will receive the same reward, regardless of how early, how late, or how long they labored in it. The reward offered in reality is that through the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, all who accept Him and do the minimum required will receive forgiveness of their sins. And what's the "labor" that is to be performed? That they have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of their sins, and are baptized by water and by the spirit.Now, I know that there are Evangelical Christians who try to escape the "works" of water and spirit baptism, perhaps because of what you in another place described as the "filthy rags" of their doing "good". But it is actually inescapable, if what Jesus told Nicodemus was not a lie. If even Jesus was baptized, "to fulfill all righteousness", then nobody can escape it and claim to be "born again." Are you going to deny that being baptized is a "work"? Or deny that it is essential, i.e. required for Salvation? I guess that's one way to escape the inevitable: deny the obvious. But I digress.I've looked over your posting history tonight, and thankfully you had only posted 20 times so far, and it's very clear what you are trying to do. May I gently suggest that it won't work? Trying to overturn LDS doctrine and practice by throwing at us scripture and general authority quotations that you do not understand will, at best, entice some of us to try to convince you that you have misunderstood what you're quoting. I dare say you will confuse a few of us, who don't know where you are coming from. The problem is, while I do believe that you are sincere, and that you believe what you believe very wholeheartedly, you do not understand what we believe, although you think you do.I hope that you are not a proponent of "cheap grace", wherein all you have to do is confess Jesus with your mouth, and afterwards continue to rob banks, rape women, murder to get gain, and so on, until the day you die, when Jesus will welcome you into His kingdom with open arms. Or are you?I'll probably get pushback on this from my fellow Latter-day Saints, but as I have come to understand it, we believe that salvation, in the sense of forgiveness of sin, is to be obtained solely through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, and baptism of water and spirit. On the day of Pentecost when the multitude asked Peter what they should do, that is how he responded. I think that Peter is a better authority than you, so I will rely upon his word over yours. You know what faith is, I'm sure, and likewise baptism. I'm not sure you know what the baptism of the spirit is, but leaving that aside, what do you understand that Peter meant by repentance? What is it? Is it a work? Is it one of those filthy rags you were talking about? And if it is, what of it? And what about keeping the commandments? Obeying Christ? ("If you love me, keep my commandments") Are the commandments that Jesus spoke of keeping, are they "works" or "filthy rags" that we can just disregard? If we've repented (turned back from) a sin, but then commit the sin again, are we still covered, or do we have to repent again? And what are sins? Surely this has nothing to do with the Law of Moses, which Christ fulfilled, but something else? Or else why did Paul take care to write about such things like drinking blood that was offered to idols, if it's something that you must not do? Or this one, from 1 Cor 4:1 ... He's not bringing it up because it's something praiseworthy is he? He's got a problem with it, clearly. But why is Paul getting all in their faces about this matter when, as you well know, the Saints at Corinth had already accepted Christ as their Savior, and could confidently report (as many evangelicals proudly do: "I was saved on such-and-such a date"? In fact, Paul is concerned with something, but what is it? It couldn't be the Law of Moses which Christ fulfilled, could it? Ah ha! I found the correlation in fact. It's Leviticus 18:8 ... Don't get confused about the nakedness thing. It's not the state of undress that is at issue, it's sexual intercourse. "See me naked" is a Biblical euphemism for intercourse. Even the Chinese use it as a euphemism for sex.So, with Paul invoking Leviticus for the Corinthians, what are we to understand about this from a "sinfulness" perspective? Is having sex with your father's wife something sinful that needs to be repented for, as Paul and the Law of Moses seem to suggest, or is it, like the Pirate Code in Pirates of the Caribbean, more of a Guideline than a Rule, for the Saved Christian? If a Christian who has already been saved, does he or she never have to worry about sin from then on? If not, why not, and why does Paul bring up a sin as if it were important, when it really isn't? Or is repentance something that even a Saved Christian have to worry about? Stargazer, I like your user name. Maybe because I love star gazing. I have a pair of 20X50 binoculors that really give me some great views of God's wonderous creation. I live in the mountains with no street lights or big cities nearby and I must say the stars are so bright that they are simply magnificent. I would like to respond point by point to your post, but I've already been warned by Vance (and several others claiming to be professing their love for me) that, being a "lesser" entity here due to my faith, I'm not allowed to discuss anything doctrinal here from a Christian prespective, because all Christians are essentially ignorant, pathetic anti-Mormon jerks who don't have a clue about their own religion, and besides the LDS here have already proven all of our arguments to be wrong, even the ones not yet formulated or discussed, so I won't dare address the points you made because I would just be trying to convince you of something you're already worlds ahead of me on. I will stick my neck out, however, and offer (because you asked nicely) that Romans Chapter 10 verses 1 thru 13 very well sum up my beliefs concerning salvation. But I didn't come here to talk about me or my beliefs. I came here to see if anyone else notices that the LDS doctrine of exaltation, requires that one do what I find, essentially, impossible. No, I'm not trying to club anyone over the head with your own Scriptures, I'm looking for dialogue. But quite frankly, it seems very clear to me that repentance is quite impossible, if it requires that one become completely sinless in this life. Maybe you can do it, but I don't know anyone who can. So if I'm mis-reading something, or mis-quoting something, or reading into the text, please point that out. Being the ignorant, bigoted Evangelical Christian that I am, and wrong about everything I hold to be true concerning Christianity, I'm probably wrong about this too. So please help out this poor misguided jerk, and enlighten me to the truth. Edited October 9, 2015 by BlahBlahBlah
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) Duplicate Edited October 9, 2015 by BlahBlahBlah
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 You misinterpret these teachings. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/07/young-adults/becoming-perfect-in-christ?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/manual/preparing-for-exaltation-teachers-manual/lesson-22-striving-for-perfection?lang=eng We believe the same as this Evangelical Christian scholar, Millard Erickson, who says: "Certain difficulties attach to assuming [we can achieve freedom from sin], however. One is that it seems contradictory to repeatedly exhort Christians to a victorious spotless life unless it is a real possibility. But does this necessarily follow? We may have a standard, an ideal, toward which we press, but which we do not expect to reach within a finite period of time. It has been observed that no one has ever reached the North Star by sailing or flying toward it. That does not change the fact that it is still the mark toward which we press, our measure of “northerliness.” Similarly, although we may never be perfectly sanctified within this life, we shall be in eternity beyond and hence should presently aim to arrive as close to complete sanctification as we can." --- Christian Theology, 2nd Edition, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI, p. 986 Hi Pogi I looked at your links, but I couldn't find anything that really explains away the "requirements" laid on us by, for example, Moroni 10:32; 2 Ne 25:23; Alma 11:37; 1 Ne 3:7; D&C 1:31.32; Alma 42:29,30; D&C 58:42, Alma 34:32 etc. If there is something specific there that's relevant, will you copy and paste it here for me please? Thx To answer you challenge that my interpretation is wrong, I've already been warned that any interpretatin may have here is defacto wrong because the LDS here already have all the correct answers. But I didn't really offer an interpretaion. I'm asking questions is all, and the words IMO don't require an interpretation. The Scriptures seem straight forward to me, and the commentaries made by Elders and Presidents that reference and explain the meaning of those Scriptures, leave no doubt in my mind that they mean exactly what they say. Don't they say that same thing to you? That exaltation only comes "after" ALL you can do?" Grace is not sufficient until I have completely forsaken my sin and removed ALL ungodliness from my life and done ALL I can do. So just what is ALL you can do anyway? Did you do ALL you could yesterday? Could you have done more? If not, have you truly repented? How many commandments do you have to keep? How often do you have to keep them? My neice is LDS and while discussing this, she told me that technically her baptism may not be valid if she hasen't truly and fully repented. Can that be true?
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 You keep making the same error. Giving us your interpretation of LDS scriptures and doctrine when you haven't the slightest idea what they mean. Your time might be better spent figuring out what you believe. Hi ERayR. Well of course I'm wrong. That goes without saying here, because I'm an Evangelical Christian. I haven't given you my interpretation. Why don't you give me yours? Pick any or all of the verses in the post right above and have at it.
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Since I've been accused (among other things) of misinterpreting, will Pogi and ERayR please interpret the following for me, in your own words. Alma 34: 34,3534Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...October 1977 The Blessings of Righteous ObedienceDelbert L. Stapleyhttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/10/the-blessings-of-righteous-obedience?lang=engWe must recognize that mortality has been granted to us as a probationary state where all physical appetites are to be mastered. It is far more difficult to repent in the spirit world of sins which involve physical habits and actions. The words of Amulek in the Book of Mormon give emphasis to this principle: “Behold,” he said, “now is the time and the day of your salvation. …“This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. …“If we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. …“That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:31–34.) It is obvious we either discipline our lives here, or pay the price for the undisciplined life in the world to come. [end quote] Now if I were to be a rebel and go ahead and stick my worthless Evangelical Christian neck out and offer an interpretation, I would say that Alma is telling me that I must truly repent in this life, or the Spirit of the Lord will withdraw from me and I will be sealed to Satan for eternity. Delbert L. Stapley concurs, quoting Alma while insisting that we can do nothing in the next life, where no labor can be performed. How did I do?
KevinG Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 The problem with the works vs. grace debate is that so often the debtors argue A) Works and B) Grace, while forgetting C) All of the above. 1
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