So What Is The Real Plan Of God. Or Is The Plan Of Salvation A Complete Disaster.

[pogi]

So was the plan all along that the children of God would only receive the gospel after they die?  Your post only supports what I have pointed out.  

 

That is the prophecy, that few would enter the gates of baptism in this life. 

[california boy]

That is the prophecy, that few would enter the gates of baptism in this life. 

 

Well then just how important is it to be a member of the church in mortality?  If 99.9% of God's children simply skip this step and wait until after they die to hear the gospel.

[Robert F. Smith]

Well then just how important is it to be a member of the church in mortality?  If 99.9% of God's children simply skip this step and wait until after they die to hear the gospel.

It makes no difference to God, who sees all people as equal.  All people are judged in this life based on the law they have, Gospel or no.  The ordinances which take place for those who have passed on are essential, but are a mere formality for those who obeyed the rules of goodness in each cultural fashion.  The Gospel plan includes all those who have never heard the Gospel.  Doesn't make sense to you?  It does in the economy of God.

[Calm]

Well then just how important is it to be a member of the church in mortality?  If 99.9% of God's children simply skip this step and wait until after they die to hear the gospel.

It is very important for those who have the chance, not important at all for those who don't.

[pogi]

Well then just how important is it to be a member of the church in mortality?  If 99.9% of God's children simply skip this step and wait until after they die to hear the gospel.

 

I think I see where you are going with this.  Then why is missionary work important, right?  Why the effort if it doesn't matter?

 

Because there is a work that needs to be done and God does not like procrastination. 

 

You are looking at this too much from a temporal perspective.  If you erase the inconsequential dividing line of mortality and immortality (death) and just call it all "life" (which it really is), then yes it is imperative that people are baptized in life.  Knowing that, why would I procrastinate missionary work?  No, we need to be disciples of Christ now, because there is too much work to be done to procrastinate in sharing his gospel of repentance and baptism.

Edited September 26, 2015 by pogi

[stephenpurdy]

..... We latter-day saints think that we are the most spiritual people in the world but nothing is further from the truth; some of the worst people I've met were mormons and some of the best people are non-mormons. The Savior's work is to save the souls of mankind whether in this life or the one hereafter; whose to say that the kingdom of glories are our final state, the work may continue even then and those who inherit a lesser kingdom may yet achieve exaltation. 

 

I think that God plans to demonstrate how some people, who were given every advantage possible in the gospel, still demonstrate to be 'bad fruit'. 

 

-Stephen

[VideoGameJunkie]

Are we different people in the spirit world? If so that shortchanges the mormons who had flaws since they were under covenants where everyone else gets to live their life and change and accept the church in the next life and be cleansed thanks to temple work. It seems mormons get the short end of the stick. For some it would have been better to accept in the next life right? I feel that way about myself sometimes because we have higher standards to live by.

[Calm]

Higher standards are a blessing unless you don't want to be the best person you can be.

[VideoGameJunkie]

It's not about wanting to be the best you can be it's about instances of life having an affect on you sometimes traumatizing and how it effects decision making.

[VideoGameJunkie]

When I look around church and see the perfect people or closest to being pure in my Church and imagine being surrounded by people like them in the Celestial Kingdom it makes me feel like maybe I won't be comfortable in that company. TheN I think of all my closest friends who are non members who I've taught about the church and said they'd never want it. These are the people I feel most comfortable around. Maybe I'm meant to feel more comfortable in one of the lower kingdoms. Just a thought I had. I never feel comfortable around the goody goodies who seem like they're showing off their faith but maybe not realizing it.

[Deborah]

Just a thought I had. I never feel comfortable around the goody goodies who seem like they're showing off their faith but maybe not realizing it.

 

What makes you thinkg the "goody goodies" are the most perfect. You don't know what is going on in their lives. People don't always wear their problems on the surface.

[Guest]

The Gospel has been upon the earth since the days of Adam and Eve in form or another...as Mormons we have scripture that the knowledge of the Son of God has always been know. Also any who wanted to would know and accept that reality. I noticed that you had 7 rep points to your orginal OP, these more than likely who are universalist who cannot have faith in the Ida that all who have the "light of Christ" And who rejec it (as all have) or the idea that God would dare hold people accountable for their actions, or who reject what they know to be "right and wrong", and choose the wrong. To them the only good and loving God is one that will save, no matter their sins

[Calm]

It's not about wanting to be the best you can be it's about instances of life having an affect on you sometimes traumatizing and how it effects decision making.

So you do the best that you can under the circumstances.

[CV75]

Well then just how important is it to be a member of the church in mortality?  If 99.9% of God's children simply skip this step and wait until after they die to hear the gospel.

It is absolutely essential, when one has the opportunity.

[california boy]

It makes no difference to God, who sees all people as equal.  All people are judged in this life based on the law they have, Gospel or no.  The ordinances which take place for those who have passed on are essential, but are a mere formality for those who obeyed the rules of goodness in each cultural fashion.  The Gospel plan includes all those who have never heard the Gospel.  Doesn't make sense to you?  It does in the economy of God.

 

This seems to make sense to me.  It would have to be this way if the opportunity for salvation is available for all equally.  Whether in this life or the next, it doesn't seem to matter.  Evidently the goal and results will be the same.  

[california boy]

It is absolutely essential, when one has the opportunity.

Why?  

[Robert F. Smith]

The Gospel has been upon the earth since the days of Adam and Eve in form or another...as Mormons we have scripture that the knowledge of the Son of God has always been know. Also any who wanted to would know and accept that reality. I noticed that you had 7 rep points to your orginal OP, these more than likely who are universalist who cannot have faith in the Ida that all who have the "light of Christ" And who rejec it (as all have) or the idea that God would dare hold people accountable for their actions, or who reject what they know to be "right and wrong", and choose the wrong. To them the only good and loving God is one that will save, no matter their sins

So, are you saying that the grace of the Infinite Atonement of Jesus does not cover everyone?  Everyone is accountable for their own sins, and since all of them sin, then everyone is going to Hell?  Are we missing some nuances here?

[Robert F. Smith]

Why?  

Where much is given, much is expected. One cannot be held responsible for what he doesn't know.  But sinning against light & knowledge is another matter entirely.

[BlahBlahBlah]

After reading all the comments about being saved in the after-life, I would like to know how to understand the following:

 

Alma 34: 34,35

34Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...

35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...


October 1977 The Blessings of Righteous Obedience

Delbert L. Stapley
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/10/the-blessings-of-righteous-obedience?lang=eng

We must recognize that mortality has been granted to us as a probationary state where all physical appetites are to be mastered. It is far more difficult to repent in the spirit world of sins which involve physical habits and actions. The words of Amulek in the Book of Mormon give emphasis to this principle: “Behold,” he said, “now is the time and the day of your salvation. …

“This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. …

“If we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. …

“That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:31–34.)

It is obvious we either discipline our lives here, or pay the price for the undisciplined life in the world to come.

 

End Quote

 

How can one expect to repent in the spirit world when one can't accomplish that feat in this life?

[BlahBlahBlah]

When I look around church and see the perfect people or closest to being pure in my Church and imagine being surrounded by people like them in the Celestial Kingdom it makes me feel like maybe I won't be comfortable in that company.

 

Gosh, has God ceased to be God?

 

Does anyone know someone who has truly repented in this life? Someone who has completely forsaken ALL sin? ALL ungodliness? Someone who has "perfected" himself in Christ?

 

Before you answer, think about it. True repentence means one has forsaken ALL sin. No pride, no lust, no covetness, no lies, (even white ones) no road rage, etc.? No sins of commission or ommission.

Alma 42: 13, 2

Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

24For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

[Stargazer]

Gosh, has God ceased to be God?

 

Does anyone know someone who has truly repented in this life? Someone who has completely forsaken ALL sin? ALL ungodliness? Someone who has "perfected" himself in Christ?

 

Before you answer, think about it. True repentence means one has forsaken ALL sin. No pride, no lust, no covetness, no lies, (even white ones) no road rage, etc.? No sins of commission or ommission.

Alma 42: 13, 2

Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

24For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

 

Well, I guess that means that we are all doomed because it is impossible to perfectly repent in this life, and so on we go, destined for the Telestial Kingdom.  Every. Single. One. Of. Us.  No exceptions.  Because literally NOBODY can perfectly repent.

 

Darnit, BlahBlahBlah, the whole point of Christ's atonement is that we don't NEED to be perfect to take advantage of God's grace as won by Christ.  We need only to do the best we can, and on that note Christ draws us the rest of the way.  This is NOT because Christ is bridging a gap we only could get 99% of the way across, and he just supplies the missing twiddly bit, it is because we have no hope of bridging even 0.0000001% of the gap between our fallen state and God's presence.  Nothing we can do can bring us even partly across.

 

Do you have any inkling of quantum physics?  It is much like an electron going up one energy level.  The electron has its energy level, and it cannot go up to the next energy level because it cannot create energy.  All its desire to go up to the next energy level is of no moment at all, until an outside source provides the necessary quantum of energy it needs.  It can't use 10% or 20% or even 99% of the required amount, because quantum mechanics requires a discrete, fixed and immutable amount of energy to go up to that next level. 

 

What Christ's atonement does is take us all the way there.  After all we can possibly do to merit forgiveness, we are left in the exact some condition, as if we had done nothing.  Our merits count for nothing..  But then Christ comes along, sees we were trying our best, and he then takes us there.  Our salvation therefore comes because of HIS merits and that's all there is to it.

 

But He does not act to take us there until we have done the best we can.  Even the truly penitent merit nothing on their own. 

 

I get the impression that you think very few people will merit salvation, due to the difficulty of full and complete repentance.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Stargazer

[BlahBlahBlah]

Well, I guess that means that we are all doomed because it is impossible to perfectly repent in this life, and so on we go, destined for the Telestial Kingdom.  Every. Single. One. Of. Us.  No exceptions.  Because literally NOBODY can perfectly repent.

 

Darnit, BlahBlahBlah, the whole point of Christ's atonement is that we don't NEED to be perfect to take advantage of God's grace as won by Christ.  We need only to do the best we can, and on that note Christ draws us the rest of the way.  This is NOT because Christ is bridging a gap we only could get 99% of the way across, and he just supplies the missing twiddly bit, it is because we have no hope of bridging even 0.0000001% of the gap between our fallen state and God's presence.  Nothing we can do can bring us even partly across.

 

Do you have any inkling of quantum physics?  It is much like an electron going up one energy level.  The electron has its energy level, and it cannot go up to the next energy level because it cannot create energy.  All its desire to go up to the next energy level is of no moment at all, until an outside source provides the necessary quantum of energy it needs.  It can't use 10% or 20% or even 99% of the required amount, because quantum mechanics requires a discrete, fixed and immutable amount of energy to go up to that next level. 

 

What Christ's atonement does is take us all the way there.  After all we can possibly do to merit forgiveness, we are left in the exact some condition, as if we had done nothing.  Our merits count for nothing..  But then Christ comes along, sees we were trying our best, and he then takes us there.  Our salvation therefore comes because of HIS merits and that's all there is to it.

 

But He does not act to take us there until we have done the best we can.  Even the truly penitent merit nothing on their own. 

 

I get the impression that you think very few people will merit salvation, due to the difficulty of full and complete repentance.

Well, unless I'm mistaken, doomed is correct.

 

According to the following, Christ's atonement doesn't do anything until you have completely forsaken you sins. All of them.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/04/repentance-and-conversion?lang=eng

May 2007

Repentance and Conversion

Elder Russell M. Nelson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

While the Lord insists on our repentance, most people don’t feel such a compelling need. 21 They include themselves among those who try to be good. They have no evil intent. 22 Yet the Lord is clear in His message that all need to repent­not only from sins of commission but from sins of omission as well.

 

One must "qualify" themself before grace is made available, only by forsaking all of one's sins. If one has repented, then they are forgiven... after ALL you can do.

2 Nephi 25: 23

23For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/two-lines-of-communication?lang=eng

November 2010

Two Lines of Communication

By Elder Dallin H. Oaks

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Because of what He accomplished by His atoning sacrifice, Jesus Christ has the power to prescribe the conditions we must fulfill to qualify for the blessings of His Atonement. That is why we have commandments and ordinances. That is why we make covenants. That is how we qualify for the promised blessings. They all come through the mercy and grace of the Holy One of Israel, “after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23).

[BlahBlahBlah]

 

I get the impression that you think very few people will merit salvation, due to the difficulty of full and complete repentance.

 

I'm not saying that. I've only quoted LDS literature that clearly says that no one except those who truly repent will receive grace.

 

Q. How many commandments do I have to keep?

 

Q. How often do I have to keep them?

[pogi]

According to the following, Christ's atonement doesn't do anything until you have completely forsaken you sins. All of them.

 

Come again?

[BlahBlahBlah]

Come again?

D&C 1: 31,32

31For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

32Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven ;

April 1995 Finding Forgiveness Richard G.Scott

Obedience to all the commandments. Full obedience brings the complete power of the gospel into your life with strength to focus on the abandonment of specific sins. It includes things you might not initially consider part of repentance, such as attending meetings, paying tithing, giving service, and forgiving others. The Lord said: “He that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.” 13