Kate Kelly Now Encouraging Others To Leave The Lds Church

[smac97]

I had moments of joy in the church, but I would say my commitment to church came from my testimony, not because it necessarily brought me joy. 

 

A few thoughts:

 

1. Overall I have found immense "joy" in the Restored Gospel, chiefly in applying its precepts in my daily life, both in formal observances, such as spirit-infused Sacrament Meetings, Gospel Doctrine lessons, Priesthood meetings, baptismal services, attending the temple, FHE, home teaching, etc.  "Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest."  (D&C 84:20), and also in "boots on the ground", "where the rubber hits the road"-type efforts, such as service projects, Gospel-influenced, uplifting discussions with family members and friends, missionary work, family history work, etc.  All of these are vital sources of "joy."

 

2. I have had times where attending Sunday services has been "boring" or otherwise less than edifying.  Most of the time this is due to my attitude, my lack of spiritual preparation, etc.  And on rarer occasions this may have been due to the attitude and/or lack of preparation of others, such as a teacher who clearly did not spend much time on the lesson or was not invested in teaching it well.  This happened a lot during during my teenage years, where priesthood meetings were unpleasant and a chore to be endured.  

 

3. There are also times when life is hard.  I have dear friends who recently lost a baby to SIDS.  Another friend had her son killed in a horrific car accident over a year ago and is still mired in grief.  Another friend was recently sexually assaulted.  Another friend, a mother of four, has been fighting cancer for three years.  Another was divorced, re-married, and divorced again the space of little more than a year.  Another friend has severe psychological/emotional issues.  Such tremendous adversities can require pretty much every ounce of strength just to endure.  Finding "joy" in the midst of such terrible hardships can be a pretty tall order.

 

4. Put another way, in my experience "joy" is to be found in the deploying of the Restored Gospel in one's life, and the absence of "joy" is generally attributable to either transitory circumstances we can control and fail to (see #2 above), or else circumstances, transitory or otherwise, which we cannot control (see #2 and #3 above).

 

5. One of the best summations of "joy" in the Restored Gospel can, I think, be found in reviewing the lyrics to Come, Come Ye Saints:

 

1. Come, come, ye Saints, no toil nor labor fear;

But with joy wend your way.

Though hard to you this journey may appear,

Grace shall be as your day.

'Tis better far for us to strive

Our useless cares from us to drive;

Do this, and joy your hearts will swell--

All is well! All is well!

 

2. Why should we mourn or think our lot is hard?

'Tis not so; all is right.

Why should we think to earn a great reward

If we now shun the fight?

Gird up your loins; fresh courage take.

Our God will never us forsake;

And soon we'll have this tale to tell--

All is well! All is well!

 

3. We'll find the place which God for us prepared,

Far away in the West,

Where none shall come to hurt or make afraid;

There the Saints will be blessed.

We'll make the air with music ring,

Shout praises to our God and King;

Above the rest these words we'll tell--

All is well! All is well!

 

4. And should we die before our journey's through,

Happy day! All is well!

We then are free from toil and sorrow, too;

With the just we shall dwell!

But if our lives are spared again

To see the Saints their rest obtain,

Oh, how we'll make this chorus swell--

All is well! All is well!

 

If the early Saints could find joy despite the privations and challenges they faced, both individually and collectively, both within and without, then may I submit that the Saints of 2015 can do the same.  We are promised joy in the Gospel:

 

Psalms 35:9 - "And my soul shall be joyful in the Lord: it shall rejoice in his salvation."

 

Isaiah 12:3 - "Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation."

 

Isaiah 51:11 - "Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away."

 

Luke 2:10 - "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people."

 

Luke 10:20 - "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."

 

1 Peter 1:8-9 - "Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory.  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

 

1 Nephi 8:12 - "And as I partook of the fruit thereof it filled my soul with exceedingly great joy; wherefore, I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also; for I knew that it was desirable above all other fruit."

 

2 Nephi 2:25 - "Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy."

 

D&C 11:13 - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, I will impart unto you of my Spirit, which shall enlighten your mind, which shall fill your soul with joy."

 

D&C 35:24 - "Keep all the commandments and covenants by which ye are bound; and I will cause the heavens to shake for your good, and Satan shall tremble and Zion shall rejoice upon the hills and flourish."

 

1 Cor. 2:9 - "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited July 21, 2015 by smac97

[why me]

Seems to me there are two issues in deciding whether to stay in the church or not, and Kate Kelly is addressing only one of them:

 

1. Does being in the church spark joy?

2. Do you believe the church is God's true church?

Joy is rather abract. What exactly is joy? We all have various  or different definitions of joy. And of course we do live in an age that is extremely individualistic and as such, we all should be concerned about our own lives and the finding of joy in it. The church requires sacrifice and I do think that such sacrifice may not be so joyful in the currect ideological, individualistiz lifestyle that is now being stressed by a do what you like but don't hurt anyone ideology. However, when we consider the service nature of the church and its stress on collective values, the idea of experiencing such individual joy may be a contradiction. The church is not about the I, Me, and My. It is more about the we and us as a value. So, joy comes with the we and  the individualistic I.

 

So, is it possible to experience  the joy of our neoliberal, individualistic age as a church member if we have such a collective value. Maybe not. But if we reflect about our own humanity and how this humanity is connected to the other among us, we can find that joy.

Edited July 21, 2015 by why me

[smac97]

Seems to me there are two issues in deciding whether to stay in the church or not, and Kate Kelly is addressing only one of them:

 

1. Does being in the church spark joy?

2. Do you believe the church is God's true church?

 

If the answer to #2 is "yes," then the answer to #1 is much less important. My brother-in-law, who is a stake president, tells me he finds church meetings "brutal" and "excruciating," and he says he would jump ship in a heartbeat if he didn't have a testimony. But he does have a testimony. He says he knows the church is true, and therefore it's worth the boring meetings, the bureaucracy, and some things he finds wrongheaded in the church.

 

If the answer to #2 is "no," then the only reason to stay would be if participating in the church brought you joy. I know quite a few people who don't believe the church is what it claims to be, but they do find joy and peace in serving in the church, so they stay.

 

I can't argue with my brother-in-law, or my unbelieving active LDS friends. Staying or going depends on your perspective.

 

Members of stake presidencies and bishoprics have to attend a lot of meetings.  A lot of meetings.  And they are in these callings for very long times (10 years for SPs, 5+ years for bishops).  Some (many) of these can be not well-managed time-wise.  Some are time-managed just fine, but the sheer number of meetings can nevertheless be fatiguing.  So while characterizing such meetings, which almost always take place sitting in climate-controlled offices, as "brutal" and "excruciating" seems a bit overwrought, I get his point.  I also get his point about being able to endure these many meetings because he has a testimony of the Restored Gospel.

 

In my younger days I spent a stint of time in the Army.  Some of it - much of it, in fact - was not fun.  But I kept at it because I felt it important to serve my country.

 

I served as a missionary in Taiwan, where I averaged perhaps 12-15 lessons per week.  This meant many, many hours a day walking from building to building, climbing flights of stairs, getting turned down again and again and again, sweating buckets all the while, and also dealing with companion "quirks" (I'm sure some of my comps would say the same about me).  But I kept at it because I had a testimony of the Restored Gospel.  The joy of the work was found in both relishing successes and enduring failures.

 

I have worked as an attorney for 11 years now.  Civil litigation.  It can get . . . intense.  And stressful.  And boring/repetitious.  But I keep at it because I am providing for my family, which is a vital responsibility in the Restored Gospel.  (And it has its enjoyable times, too.)

 

I have been married for 18 years.  Six kids.  Lots and lots of work.  Lots and lots and lots of joy, although still interspersed with quite a few difficulties and challenges, both internal and external.

 

I am grateful I never had a person like Kate Kelly in my life during these experiences, who would have counseled fecklessness rather than faith, abandonment rather than endurance, self-centeredness over sacrifice.  Instead, I have had in my life wonderful counselors, including my parents, my wife, my in-laws, my siblings, my friends, and increasingly my children, who share with me their testimonies, their struggles, their sorrows, and their ways of deploying the principles of the Restored Gospel in coping with and getting through and enduring difficulties and challenges, and in finding joy throughout.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited July 21, 2015 by smac97

[Scott Lloyd]

This seems like emotional blackmail to me (just saying). And yes this post is also emotional blackmail.

Neither one is emotional blackmail. What I said was more along the lines of take-it-or-leave-it advice. (To his credit, Sethpayne seems to have taken it to heart, setting aside who was saying it and considering it on its merits.)

Emotional blackmail might be the functional equivalent of "if you don't shut up/capitulate to me, you will drive me out of the Church/make me suicidal/compel me to hurt myself or others or do other destructive things, and it will be your fault."

I see a distinction between that and offering advice that one might consider for his/her own good.

But I don't want to pursue a conversation on this, because it would amount to thread derailment.

Edited to add:

Someone has attempted what really is emotional blackmail on this thread. As an intellectual exercise, if you search back through, perhaps you can spot it.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ttribe]

Probably not.

President Kimball once wrote: "We would not have much motivation to improvement if all speakers and writers postponed discussing and warning until they themselves were perfected."

 

I'll see your President Kimball quote, and raise you a John 8:7.

[jkwilliams]

Members of stake presidencies and bishoprics have to attend a lot of meetings.  A lot of meetings.  And they are in these callings for very long times (10 years for SPs, 5+ years for bishops).  Some (many) of these can be not well-managed time-wise.  Some are time-managed just fine, but the sheer number of meetings can nevertheless be fatiguing.  So while characterizing such meetings, which almost always take place sitting in climate-controlled offices, as "brutal" and "excruciating" seems a bit overwrought, I get his point.  I also get his point about being able to endure these many meetings because he has a testimony of the Restored Gospel.

 

In my younger days I spent a stint of time in the Army.  Some of it - much of it, in fact - was not fun.  But I kept at it because I felt it important to serve my country.

 

I served as a missionary in Taiwan, where I averaged perhaps 12-15 lessons per week.  This meant many, many hours a day walking from building to building, climbing flights of stairs, getting turned down again and again and again, sweating buckets all the while, and also dealing with companion "quirks" (I'm sure some of my comps would say the same about me).  But I kept at it because I had a testimony of the Restored Gospel.  The joy of the work was found in both relishing successes and enduring failures.

 

I have been married for 18 years.  Six kids.  Lots and lots of work.  Lots and lots and lots of joy, although still interspersed with quite a few difficulties and challenges, both internal and external.

 

I am grateful I never had a person like Kate Kelly in my life during these experiences, who would have counseled fecklessness rather than faith, abandonment rather than endurance, self-centeredness over sacrifice.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

 

It all comes down to whether it's true or not. You continue in the church, despite the challenges, because you believe it to be true. If you didn't believe, I can't imagine you'd find much joy in persevering. I'd have put up with anything if I believed in it. I don't think you and I disagree much on this.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'll see your President Kimball quote, and raise you a John 8:7.

I'm not going to derail this thread with a game of dueling quotes. Start another thread for that purpose if you like. I may or may not contribute.

[Scott Lloyd]

It all comes down to whether it's true or not. You continue in the church, despite the challenges, because you believe it to be true. If you didn't believe, I can't imagine you'd find much joy in persevering. I'd have put up with anything if I believed in it. I don't think you and I disagree much on this.

Faith is not even full-fledged acceptance of its truth. It is a consideration -- even a hope -- that it might be true (see Alma 32) and a determination that it is worth the wait or the investment of energy or whatever it might take to find out.

[ttribe]

I'm not going to derail this thread with a game of dueling quotes. Start another thread for that purpose if you like. I may or may not contribute.

 

No, thanks.

[why me]

It all comes down to whether it's true or not. You continue in the church, despite the challenges, because you believe it to be true. If you didn't believe, I can't imagine you'd find much joy in persevering. I'd have put up with anything if I believed in it. I don't think you and I disagree much on this.

The problem is that this is not what kate is saying. She more or less states that if a person is not happy in the church, that person should leave. One can have faith and yet, not be happy or finding joy as a member. I didn't see anything about leaving if that person does not have faith but maybe I missed it.

 

What we see in this day and age are people leaving marriages if they are not happy and yet, still love their mates etc. I  believe that this is misguided but also very individualistic. And this also refers to kate's manifesto. It is very individualistic and overlooks the collective value of finding joy not just in ourselves but in the others who share the same values.

Edited July 21, 2015 by why me

[jkwilliams]

Faith is not even full-fledged acceptance of its truth. It is a consideration -- even a hope -- that it might be true (see Alma 32) and a determination that it is worth the wait or the investment of energy or whatever it might take to find out.

 

Then I'll just amend my statement: it doesn't make sense to wait for something you don't consider or hope to be true to bring you joy.

[MorningStar]

I don't see how anyone could leave if they believe the church is true.  Doesn't make sense to me.  I can understand decreased activity for a variety of reasons, but actually resigning?  The Gospel brings me joy, but it is also always a challenge to live it.  I like challenges though.   

[smac97]

It all comes down to whether it's true or not. You continue in the church, despite the challenges, because you believe it to be true. If you didn't believe, I can't imagine you'd find much joy in persevering. I'd have put up with anything if I believed in it. I don't think you and I disagree much on this.

 

I quite agree.  I have thrown in my lot with the LDS Church because I believe in its truth claims.  And I believe in its truth claims because of many, many spiritual experiences which have confirmed the reality of those truth claims to me.  If the Church were just a social club, if it were just an elaborate self-help network, if it did not have the Spirit in it and witnessing of its truth claims, then I don't think I would stay with it.  There are all sorts of social clubs and self-help gurus I could go to for input on living a decent life.

 

"Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."  (John 6:68).  In our day, I believe "the words of eternal life" are to be found in the Restored Gospel as housed in and administered by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Hence the throwing of my lot in with the Church.  Hence my taking exception to the feckless, faithless silliness currently being peddled by Kate Kelly.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

I quite agree.  I have thrown in my lot with the LDS Church because I believe in its truth claims.  And I believe in its truth claims because of many, many spiritual experiences which have confirmed the reality of those truth claims to me.  If the Church were just a social club, if it were just an elaborate self-help network, if it did not have the Spirit in it and witnessing of its truth claims, then I don't think I would stay with it.  There are all sorts of social clubs and self-help gurus I could go to for input on living a decent life.

 

"Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."  (John 6:68).  In our day, I believe "the words of eternal life" are to be found in the Restored Gospel as housed in and administered by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Hence the throwing of my lot in with the Church.  Hence my taking exception to the feckless, faithless silliness currently being peddled by Kate Kelly.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

 

10 years ago I could easily have written that. But I think you understand where I'm coming from. If the church is true, then not much else matters. Of course, the converse is true, too.

[smac97]

10 years ago I could easily have written that. But I think you understand where I'm coming from. If the church is true, then not much else matters. Of course, the converse is true, too.

 

I concur.  And I respect your position.  I hope you give the Gospel another chance some day.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

I concur.  And I respect your position.  I hope you give the Gospel another chance some day.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

 

I don't know. I've given it probably 5 or 6 chances in the last 10 years. Each time it has just been another reminder that I made the right choice. Yeah, it sucks not being able to attend my children's weddings, but I'm at peace.

[Storm Rider]

I don't know. I've given it probably 5 or 6 chances in the last 10 years. Each time it has just been another reminder that I made the right choice. Yeah, it sucks not being able to attend my children's weddings, but I'm at peace.

 

I think that as long as your at peace then all is well.  The issue revolves around knowing yourself and knowing that you are doing what you think is right i.e. that which acceptable and/or directed by God.  I don't think everyone is cut out to be a LDS just like I don't think that God feels it is necessary for all of his children to belong to a single church. 

 

We each are attracted to the level of truth we are prepared to live and if we live those truths we will be at peace.

 

Cheers,

[jkwilliams]

I think that as long as your at peace then all is well.  The issue revolves around knowing yourself and knowing that you are doing what you think is right i.e. that which acceptable and/or directed by God.  I don't think everyone is cut out to be a LDS just like I don't think that God feels it is necessary for all of his children to belong to a single church. 

 

We each are attracted to the level of truth we are prepared to live and if we live those truths we will be at peace.

 

Cheers,

 

Yep, I chose to follow truth, and as painful as that was, I haven't regretted it. 

[HappyJackWagon]

I think that as long as your at peace then all is well.  The issue revolves around knowing yourself and knowing that you are doing what you think is right i.e. that which acceptable and/or directed by God.  I don't think everyone is cut out to be a LDS just like I don't think that God feels it is necessary for all of his children to belong to a single church. 

 

We each are attracted to the level of truth we are prepared to live and if we live those truths we will be at peace.

 

Cheers,

JK- I'm sorry you're not attracted or prepared to live at a higher level of truth. Maybe some day

 

Storm Rider- I thought your post was extremely thoughtful and generous until that line.

[Teancum]

There are times when the joy comes later, sometimes much later.

Or one tells themselves this yet it never comes at all.

[Teancum]

We call that faith.

It's what motivated Joseph Smith to continue searching in the midst of confusion and discouragement, ultimately to receive the First Vision.

I thought you called it knowing.

[jkwilliams]

JK- I'm sorry you're not attracted or prepared to live at a higher level of truth. Maybe some day

 

Storm Rider- I thought your post was extremely thoughtful and generous until that line.

 

I wasn't offended. My somewhat facetious reply was that I'm OK with him choosing a lesser form of truth and staying in the church.

[Teancum]

No, thanks.

Scott has trouble dealing with things that may challenge him. Thus he ignores or kicks the can down the road.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Teancum

[Russell C McGregor]

Given that the board where you did that has a reputation as a cesspool of defamation and vile slander of the Church, its leaders and some of its other members, and given that contributors to this board have, without their consent -- or even their awareness, in some cases -- become the subjects of discussion on that board, I think people posting here should be warned that you have taken part in that to some degree.

 

Scott, you haven't really arrived at that sty until John accuses you of encouraging him to commit suicide.

[Kenngo1969]

I didn't take it as a cheap shot, but I'm not going to leave the church. I am trying to destroy it from the inside, one testimony at a time.

He smiled and he winked when he said it ... honest!